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Dismember, Thoughtseize and Bob all seem ouch together. Is the life loss ever an issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Can you give me a run-down of important discard targets in the big matchups? I haven't played with targeted discard in years with this deck, and I'm wondering what cards you want to prioritize taking.
So far the lifeless hasn't bitten me yet but I guess eventually ill lose to it. Bob usually flips lands in this deck since half the deck is 0cc. And also there's no risk of flipping something like force of will etc. Targeted discard is useful in bagging an important early game card to allow you to roll into the middle game where you dominate. Sometimes you get blown. Out early by a broken starts by the opponent. You can take stuff like Delver, cranial plating, sfm, removal etc.
Honestly I just like it because of the curve issues. You have less land go t1 plays which I've always felt was the issue with this deck. If people are dropping lackey, vial, Delver etc turn one and we are just dropping land, we're falling behind alot. Dismember, 4 discard and 4 Mox gives you 10 cards that can give you some sort of t1 play. Ideally I'd like 12 or more, but I'm comfortable with 10.
Also this deck is horrible vs fast combo. Having 4 md cards that can disrupt and 4-6 more out of the board, gives you a fighting chance.
Do you run Bolt and/or Lavamancer?Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I used IoK in my lands build and it was amazing.
I am not sure you need it in aggro loam. I think it's better in the sideboard to bring against your bad match-ups.
With Stoneblade going all white and stuff, I think REB is no longer really necessary. IoK removes everything RUG delver has anyway too, so IoK should be superior to REB in those regards.
Also it gives you a ghost of a chance against the really bad match-ups too, and maybe even against Maverick, as if you needed any help.
Basically, it's a turn 1 play, removes a lot of stuff before it becomes relevant, and it's not a bad idea to run it maindeck, but that changes the whole deck around.
There is a threat of overthinking this I think. I will have to see, probably running it against this weekend with 6 SB slots dedicated to discard. I will see how the bad matchups will go.
I dislike discard for the same reason I dislike extirpate: getting access to black mana, especially in the first few turns, sucks. Sure, from time to time you'll get a mox diamond but otherwise, fetching up a badlands is risky business, especially if your keep is only like two lands and the other is also non-basic or a wasteland. I'd rather limit play on-color answers.
Also, crushing into a 1cc discard spell is pretty unimpressive.
I don't play crusher or bolts or Lavamancer. I play terravore, pulse and assault at the 3. So far its been good, however I've realised I've been winning most of my games with punishing grove. It's really hard to answer both punishing fire and loam. If you run into extirpate, both punishing and loam are equally dangerous. Grim/crusher are strong but a little fragile for my tastes. Also I'm trying scavenging ooze in the MD as a 2 off. So far he's just been ok. Prob a flex slot.
In addition most people can be tricked into extirpating Punishing Fire while you have an untapped grove as you can still return the targeted Fire with the Groves mana ability.
No one really plays Extirpate, most are running Surgical extraction.
I mean, if your opponent knows they're going to face Loam.deck all day, THEN you pack Extirpate.
Crusher is fragile, but great. The main thing is thinning your deck. If he was an enchantment that did what he did (and gave some bonus to something), he's be the tits, but unforts, he's just a creature that can swing for lethal. Oh noes. Honestly, he gets super huge and gravehate (minus Leyline ofc) doesn't hurt him.
-Matt
Abundance?Nevermind, poor interaction with Dredge. I shouldn't post without my 2nd cup of coffee.
I like Crusher's filtering ability, but I also like Terravore's trample and immediate size. Crusher gets bigger going long, but that's going long; in Snapcast_Your_Removal.format, something that's huge right now becomes more attractive. I'm not sure I'd want to completely cut Crushers, but I would want to try at least a 3-1 Crush-Vore split.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Might be worth replacing Goyf with Terravore over Crusher. I still don't think Crusher's filtering can be understated, but having trample and dodging Spell Snare seems pretty good in the current meta.
Only question is whether it's worth the extra turn of waiting, especially against burn/UR Delver matchups.
I'm running 3/1 Crusher:Terravore and have been doing so forever and have loved it.
-Matt
Are those the only creatures you run? I've been looking intently at this deck, I'm currently playing UR delver and was hoping to adopt a RUG version of it, as the black splash seems to add A: card advantage, B: protection via discard. I feel like the biggest thing you'd be losing is Maelstrom Pulse but there doesn't seem to be a heavily reliance on that card as it stands anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
My biggest problem I'm running into is not having enough card slots to work FOW in there.. Cutting down on creatures and leaning more towards the Seismic Assault / Punishing Fires route + blue protection, with only a handful of creatures seems like it would work the best for what I'm trying to do.
FoW is losing its luster, even in blue control decks. This deck already overplays its hand, I think putting a FoW will definitely take it in uncomfortable directions. Your control is through removal and not caring about minor threats since your creatures and seismic assault can just go over the top.
I don't like discard main, but i also don't like losing to certain decks automatically. If you use discard, I think putting it in the SB will accomplish this.
I'm running:
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Crusher
1 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant
So far, it's been very nice along with the 2 Sylvan Library :)
-Matt
Possibly playing aggro loam tomorrow at the 5k, matt can I get your list?
So I ran my Indy list today, with -1 badlands, +1 bayou and this sb:
4 leyline
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 ancient grudge
2 devastating dreams
2 thoughtseize
R1 - 0-2 L maverick
R2 - 2-0 W merfolk
R3 - 2-0 W rug delver
R4 - 2-0 W painter servant
R5 - ID burn
T8 - 2-0 UR delver
T4 - split, but would have had to play TES :|
25 people.
- 4 Ooze is simply over-the-top amazing, this deck should play 4. It's so good against everything.
- Terravores were still good, haven't played against esper stoneblade, but i still like them better than crushers.
- Liliana is so good, I really want to get 3. I am NEVER sorry to see her.
- The mana still needs adjustments. Tony's list is probably lots better. This deck lives and dies by the mana.
- SB Grudges were amazing. This and Volrath's stronghold won G2 vs. Painter
- Inquisitions were amazing. I side them in against almost everything. Took Price of Progress against Chris with UR in top-8.
- Thoughtseizes are probably still good, didn't see a single one.
- Need to test more against combo.
I've begun testing the following in preparation for me maybe attending SCG Phoenix:
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
The mana is pretty rocky, mostly owing to Grove and eleventy billion nonbasics opening me up to tempo Wasteland plays. I liked sdematt's creature base, so I stole it. As for the other cards, 4 Punishing Fire is too much. I like the card more in theory than I have so far in practice, but we'll see - I want a couple, but not a lot, and I'm not sure how the numbers will work out if I shave into the package for more slots.
I kind of want Sylvan Library. Maybe -1 Fire, -1 Grove, +1 Fetch, +1 Library.
I'm interested in trying out discard/Liliana versions, but not with Fires in them. If the mana feels too rough in a version like this, I can only imagine how much worse it gets in a version that wants BB too.
EDIT: The sideboard I've been working with is:
2 Zuran Orb
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Noxious Revival
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
3 Thoughtseize
Haven't used all of them yet, but I might change the Grip/Grudge split because I haven't seen all that much Counterbalance and that's the main reason I'd want Grip over Grudge.
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
2 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Barbarian Ring
26
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant
15
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life form the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
2 Maelstorm Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Ghastly Demise (or Terminate, but if you're not running into infinite black creatures, Ghastly has been great)
20
Just remember a few things for tomorrow, if you play my list:
1) Virtue's Ruin is a bit better, at the moment than Perish, unless you're running into tons of Elves. Thalia's, MoM's, and the like are hard for you to gain value with, and really slow you down. You could Perish if you can't get Ruins, but you're also running Green creatures, so the wrath effect here is much more one-sided.
2) Sylvan Library lets you Dredge as much as you want for free, but let me explain. If you have 2 Life from the Loams and a Sylvan Library, you can Dredge twice for free off the library, then look at the top card and decide if you want it (if you do, you have to pay 4 life). If you have 1 Loam, you get to Dredge once and look twice (and pay 4 or 8 to take 1 or two cards). If you have 3, you can Dredge 3 times without paying ANY life, but you don't get to look at any cards. Just make sure you announce you're using Sylvan Library to Dredge, and which of the three cards you're either looking at or Dredging. I usually suggest (if you have one Loam): Look, Dredge, Look.
3) UWB Stoneblade can't beat a resolved Seismic Assault unless they pull Vindicate. So, bait them if you can before you drop it. If you know they have Clique, wait until your main phase to Dredge your Loam (using a cycler if possible), then immediately cast it so they never get priority to Clique you. It's slower, but you'll never lose your Loam.
--BOARD--
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Devastating Dreams
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Noxious Revival
3 REB/Pyroblast
Good luck tomorrow! :)
Post #1991. Oh noes teh palindromes! I hope it isn't a recognized restriction site :P
-Matt
Thank you sir, given the opportunity I shall give you a shout out.
Edit: Played ANT, got 38th and the guy I split with got 17th. Daggers.