What do you guys think of this Rhona's last stand as a sb option?
Land grant + petal or esg gives you a turn 1 5/4.
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What do you guys think of this Rhona's last stand as a sb option?
Land grant + petal or esg gives you a turn 1 5/4.
I think double green without Pact is iffy. Perhaps with Carpet as part of an updated man plan?Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
No trample or flying = unlikely to finish the job by itself against most Legacy decks, especially since the 4 toughness can be quite easily killed by double blocking even if the opponent has sided out all spot creature removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Accidentally hit by EE and Echoing Truth which people might bring in if they expect EtW tokens. Accidentally hit by flusterstorm, spell pierce, invasive surgery, which people might be bringing in if they run those in the SB because it's not an "authentic" creature.
In terms of innovating low cmc threats:
Death's Shadow, Quirion Dryad and Young Pyromancer seem to me like they could "snowball" better, but those also lack trample/flying. Dark Confidant and Stoneforge mystic are suited for grindier value games.
Personally, I would like to try out a robots style beatdown conversion of a tallman list. 4x Steel Overseer, 4x Cranial Plating, 2x Etched Champion, 2x Thoughtcast? Would that be any good in practice? The general idea would be to overwhelm blue tempo decks with the quantity of threats.
In SAINT, we found Mox Opal to be reliable with:Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker
SAINT also played 4 Goblin Charbelcher, although Charbelcher doesn't count for Metalcraft in terms of Mox Opal being an IMS.
Did you ever do a proper primer for that deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
If I remember correctly, the verdict was essentially 'good, but nothing that TES and ANT don't already do'. Has anything changed over the last few years that would make SAINT a better choice? Those two decks have certainly changed a great deal over that time.
Taken off of stormboards, dated as well
emidln
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Mar 23, 2012 at 1:15am
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This is a deck I've been trolling people with on Cockatrice for the past few months. It's based around two ideas:
(a) SI would be a pretty decent deck if only it didn't fizzle so much due to the randomness of draw4s
(b) RG Belcher would be a pretty decent deck if only it didn't fizzle so much due to opponents answering ETW
With that in mind, I started with a classic SI shell, ala 2006 (Par-tah like it's 2006 yo!):
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
10 Tall Men (Shield Sphere/Ornithopter/Phyrexian Walker)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
So far, we have infinite mana and a way to go get something. We need more business, and we definitely need to abuse Mox Opal, since that card wasn't around in 2006.
+4 Mox Opal
But what about the business? Draw4s are pretty awkward. Sometimes you chain them into a win or more draw4s, sometimes you sit there pretty awkwardly having stripped your opponent of their force and lost half (or more) of you life. Ad Nauseam is a fine card and definitely something I would have built around had it existed when SI was first pondered. With 12 free artifact mana sources and gobs of mana, I'm pretty fine running the full set. It's better if you draw into it naturally. Also, we want to be goldfishing people on turn 1 right? Right.
+4 Ad Nauseam
Now, we just need to work out how to win. Some of the recent ways are Grapeshot, Tendrils, IGG->Tendrils, Past in Flames->Tendrils, and Empty the Warrens. While Tendrils and Grapeshot are both probably okay in the abstract, most of your will notice that this deck with Tendrils has been tried and judged to be too inconsistent in the past. IGG doesn't bring anything particularly spicy, and Past in Flames is more than a little awkward in this deck given how much you need to make it work without artifacts. So, if all of the win conditions suck, why am I writing this?
+4 Goblin Charbelcher
You see, Goblin Charbelcher is exactly what this deck wants. If we start to talk in the abstract, you'll notice that we have 9 business spells right now. That is, 9 cards that, if you see any of them in your opener with the gobs of mana this shell is known for, just kill your opponent. 9 business spells isn't enough for a deck that doesn't have cantrips. 9 business spells isn't enough to have a reasonably high certainty that I will have one in my opening hand. Further, with 9, I might be forced to mull a hand that has a win condition, but lacks other pieces and the relatively low density can easily come back to bite me on the fresh hand. 13 business spells is a good number. 13 is 2 more than Belcher. 13 is pretty close to the number that made SI so explosive and resilient when Goblins roamed the land. Goblin Charbelcher is not only a win condition, perfect for flipping to Ad Naus with your mana, but it's an awesome draw by itself. Goblin Charbelcher is that mythic threat that ends the game all by itself with no help (in this deck at least).
So, we have SI, -draw4s, -tendrils/igg, +ad nauseam, +belcher. Why does this matter?
SI is fast. SI has always been on pace with Belcher, usually edging it out slightly because Belcher needs to pass the turn quite frequently (almost 2/3s of the time due to Wish/ETW making up 7/11 of its business). SI's major fault is that it loses to itself with alarming frequency. Not just fizzles mind you, but shuffle up your deck, move to the next game losing. Pact SI is the most common variant now, using Pacts to simulate business and cut some of the worse draws you might have off your draw4s. It's not good enough in my eyes.
I believe I've fixed this by relying on Ad Nauseam and Goblin Charbelcher instead of draw4s. Further, Mox Opal adds increased mana consistency (always a choking point for SI). Mox Opals have a side effect of requiring Tall Men, but I can even turn that into at least a neutral requirement by flashbing back therapy and blocking to keep my life total high for AdN.
Belcher is fast. Belcher has been one of the fastest decks, if not the fastest, for its entire lifespan in legacy. With ETW it became extremely consistent. With Stoneforge Mystic and Knight of the Reliquary both appearing on turn 2, it became unreliable against aggro as well as Force of Will. Belcher could never really afford much protection, but it sidestepped that by using an opponents sometimes imperfect information to drop Goblins when your opp countered the wrong spell.
I believe I've fixed this by cutting out the "bad" draws of Belcher were you had a lot of uncertainty. Now Belcher is still a fine opening, but your plan B is cast Ad Naus to just draw into your Belcher. You even gain the ability to Therapy/Duress an opponent to add some amount of protection if you don't feel the turn 1 is safe.
The sideboard I've been working with has been:
4 Nature's Claim
3 Duress
8 slots
I don't really use other slots. I tend to side out 1 tall man, 1 diabolic intent, 1 mox opal, for 3 Duress against control decks. Most aggro decks you just ask them if they have Mindbreak Trap and move to game 3 if they do. You have nature's claim to guard against Chalice @ 0 and some other edge cases (although, sadly, not chalice @ 1). A manplan sideboard involving Tomb of Urami, Phyrexian Obliterator, and Abyssal Persecutor might be okay (and indeed, maybe better than Nature's Claim). I don't think Tendrils is really necessary, although for a slot to beat Surgical Extraction when you're unlucky enough to have your Belcher already (via enemy discard spells or LED) might be worth it.
The 10th tall man (maybe the 9th as well), the Diabolic Intent, and the 4th Mox Opal are all pretty marginal. They could be a mixture of Duress if you wanted more maindeck.
I won't bother you with matchups. It's basically Belcher that doesn't suffer Batterskull/EE/Deed and gets to run Therapy+Duress. Take Belcher's matchups and know that the deck doesn't necessary blow when the game goes long
The only update is to say that Mentor is a viable sideboard plan. I don't know if it's the best sideboard plan, but it's certainly viable (you want to side some scrublands and possibly a savannah to make it better). If you go try the semi-transformational sideboard, you probably want to include some extra Duress, a PiF, a ToA, and probably Fragmentizes.
Well, he certainly knew how to sell it! Losing to poor D4 is indeed the weakness of SI.
I'm not completely sold on Belcher as the win condition, though. We've just been discussing the weakness of Land Grant in a modern meta, and being able to drop some real lands is very, very nice. I do belive there is a 'better' version of SI out there, and it probably involves Ad Nauseam, but Land Grant is just so very meta dependent.
If you start to modify SAINT with..Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
- 4 Land Grant
- 1 tallman
- 1 opal
+ 6 land
- 4 GCB
+ 3 ToA
+ 1 IGG
...then you will realize you have to mulligan to 8 business spells (AdN or IT), need to splash red for EtW, and relatively quickly you are looking at SI-TES where you want to add some Ad Nauseam in.
Another alternative list from the storm boards, however, was running Plunge into Darkness + EtW instead of Ad Nauseam:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Sideboard thought experiment:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
Initial reactions?
what matchups is this for? seems sketchy since they just need a removal spell.
I'm thinking of the generic blue matchup, where (post board) they run more counters than we run distruption - although many of those will be soft counters - as well as card filtering. They typically run far less removal, so I wondered if it would be possible to blank those counters entirely and force them to rely completely on their much smaller removal suite.
I suspect this is all overly complicated, but it doesn't hurt to toss the idea about.
Defense Grid and Autumn's Veil seem like decent anti-counter cards to me. If you are running EtW in your list or if your opponent expects you to run EtW post SB, the opponent might SB in AoE effects which will accidentally hit your insects and thopters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
Also, Great Sable Stag comes into my mind faster than the Leyline.
A small event report for those who enjoy learning from the mistakes of others. This was my third weekly event since getting back into Magic, and my second event with PSI, so don't expect perfect piloting. :laugh:
This was my list:
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Slithermuse
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
4 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Past in Flames
2 Empty the Warrens
Round 1 - 4cc
Game 1: He's on the play (I don't win a single dice roll all night), and neither of us know what the other is playing. When he cracks a fetch for Tundra > Ponder, I know that I need to win this quick or be buried in card quality.
Fortunately, my hand is full of redundancy, with double Ritual, double Petal, and double D4. My first Petal > Ritual > D4 eats a Force, but my second one gets me there.
Game 2: A long, grinding game where he gets out a Liliana and tries to use it attack my hand. At the same time, I manage to strip the counters out of his hand, so when I top-deck Past in Flames, I win after a long and convoluted chain.
1-0
Round 2 - 4cc
Game 1: I go off on my first turn, but make a poor play decision. I can either go off with Lotus Petal, which costs me more cards if he has countermagic, or I can Imprint my Infernal Tutor and have a recurring resource. I go with the latter play and it turns out he has no counter, but my D4 draws me into all gas and no business. The LED would have given me the game win if I had kept the Tutor. Oh, well.
Game 2: My T1 Duress strips his relevant counter, and I go off the following turn.
Game 3: Another grinding game, I end up in a position where I have an Infernal Tutor with 6 mana floating. I elect to fetch Infernal Tutor > Empty the Warrens. Only after doing so do I realize that fetching Past in Flames would have won me the game on the spot (it's a relatively new addition to the sideboard for me, as I've been focusing on the green sideboard that works better with IGG). Instead, he's able to drop a Monastery Mentor and win the attrition battle while my hand fills back up with nothing useful.
1-1
Round 3 - RG Combo Lands
Game 1: Scouting means I know what he's playing. We both end up mulling to five, and I keep a hand with loads of gas and no business. It takes me several turns to top-deck a D4, but he's recovering as well, so I have the time I need to win.
Game 2: I've never played against Lands before, but given the nature of his deck, Chalice makes a huge amount of sense, as does Leyline. I don't have Abrupt Decay yet (pending), but I can bring in EtW in case of Leyline.
As it happens, I have a two land hand, and he passes the turn without dropping any hate. I can either play a land and pass, to go off next turn with two lands, or I can go for EtW right now. While Chalice on 0 is the big fear, someone who doesn't know this deck might hold off for Chalice on 1, so I can't write off that card yet. On balance, I decide to go for EtW (as Slithermuse, the alternative play, was unhelpfully sitting in my opening seven). It gets me there.
2-1
Round 4 - UR Delver
Game 1: Having learned to be as aggressive as possible against U game one, I go all out. I find lethal, but in response he cracks both fetches for Tropical Island and double Bolts me. Ha! Neither of us could quite believe the way that game turned out.
Game 2: Swamp > Ritual > Duress (stripping the counter) > C Ritual > C Ritual > D4. I draw into both Tendrils, Chrome Mox, and a land. Drawing into so much junk, I'm unable to recover before he beats me down.
2-2
Afterthoughts:
Not an impressive finish by any means, but it would have been a 3-1 finish if I had seen the PiF line of play in Round 2 more swiftly. I could say that there were games where I got unlucky, but SI is a high variance deck the occasional 'bad luck' is the price of entry.
I'm broadly happy with the main deck. Eternal Witness will possibly become Skullwinder. I'm always trying to fit another Dark Petition in there somewhere. But mostly it's fine.
I've been testing sideboards against blue very heavily the past two weeks. While the green sideboard is strong, I find myself preferring the black version. This allows me to focus on a mono-color manabase, getting to the point where I can simply hardcast D4s to draw out counters.
This is what Carpet of Flowers used to do, but in testing I found that these days it rarely produced more than one mana, and often none at all (players will often drop a threat, then Daze their Island back to their hand). Add in the possibility of being countered, and the fact that it is (at best) a second mana source, and I've been finding that simply dropping Swamps is better.
Thanks for the report. As an aside, would unmask have been better than any of the discard?
Not in any of these matches. While the sample size is really small, if you make allowances for my PiF misplay, I only actually lost one post-board game against U, and that was due to a bricked D4.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
My sideboard strategy has been to drop perpetual resources and start lobbing D4s and discard effects until I'm able to go off - a very brute force method. This was actually commented on a number of times during the tournament; Duress/Therapy might reveal a number of counters, and I'd discard the worst and simply go off straight into the teeth of the remaining counters, just to use them up. I have more D4 + discard than they have counters.
The upshot of this is that because I'm running 9 lands that produce/fetch black, plus other initial mana sources, casting Duress was typically not an issue. I've not tested Unmask, and I can certainly see cases where being able to hit hatebears would be very useful, but in the U matchup I think the card disadvantage is a real drawback. If discarding hatebears instead of just racing them becomes a thing, I'd probably trial Thoughtseize before Unmask.
Those SB Swamps and discard should just be MD, if you'd stop tool boxing with Summoner's Pact then there's more than enough space for +2 Swamps. Once you have the Swamps, -4 Spirit Guides for Cabal Therapy and then you have SB space for a Bayou? and real SB cards.
That's certainly a possibility. And if my meta turns out to be mostly blue, that could be the way to go. But for now I like the raw speed and power of PSI against non-blue decks, which I would lose if I dropped the Pact package.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
And ESG is actually quite useful against blue. Not only do they offer Daze protection in the early turns, but when the game turns into a grind, hard-casting them provides a modest clock and allows you to flashback Cabal Therapy.
I own the parts for SI-TES, and I'll probably pick up the tallmen for classic SI, as I don't think it hurts to test different versions to keep things fresh.
I'm not suggesting you cut Summoner's Pact or Elvish Spirit Guide, just reduce the package to it's essentials in order to add stability and disruption because it's the only thing that really distinguishes you from Belcher.
Played SAINT in my FLGS weekly today, went 3-1. Won against Burn (2-0), Br Animator (2-0) and Lands (2-1, lost g2 on the draw after mull to 4, t1 chalice 0, t2 sphere of resistance, t3 sphere of resistance, t4 marit lage). Lost to a Nantuko Shade control deck (0-2) splashing green for Tarmogoyf (3rd round at 2-0 record) which won the coin toss, used Thoughtseize and Hymn and Hypnotic Sceptre and Liliana to great effect, and I mis-sideboarded to help him further (apparently, he was not running needle, chalice, leyline of sanctity or revoker in the 75, so I could have sideboarded 0 which was relevant because I was lacking opposing Nature's Claim targets to turn my IT active and couldn't spare the 1 extra mana to target my own guy and respond with CtW to go off).
My decklist was:
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Shield Sphere
2 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Mox Opal
Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Slaughter Pact/2 Fatal Push/1 Disfigure - should have been 4 Slaughter pact but this is what I owned. Traded for 2 pacts after the tournament and would run the 4th leyline over FP/Disfigure if I don't find a fourth copy.