Amidoingitright?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Printable View
Amidoingitright?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Yep, them's, the Golgari Thug and Narcomoeba beats, eat that, bad cards and bad counters.
Sure are!Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
If I'm getting ridiculed anyway there's no point in posting any further than what I already said: Cage is good as slow-down,bad as hoser. That's all.
That's fair. Pretty much all we're looking for though is something to slow Dredge down long enough for us to get a fatty down.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Would you rather face a cage or relic?
Based on this chain of logic, I suppose that the only reason that dredge hasn't completely taken over the Legacy metagame is due to a lack of competent pilots? It has always had an edge in practically every matchup in game 1. If hate such as Cage and Leyline are so ineffective against competent dredge players, what's stopping the deck from steamrolling through every Legacy tournament?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Who will I be seeing this weekend in beautiful Worcester Mass? I'm not sneaking or showing but I'll be around, maybe tomorrow but definitely sunday.
I'll be there, likely casting Show and TellsQuote:
Originally Posted by bfeingersh
Nice discussion here. I'll add something here. Neither decks is an autowin against eachother.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
First, dredge really is lacking of pilots (not only competent, but we can see in the lists that are so many Canadian, Stoneblade and Maverick pilots, but few Dredge players). A deck hard to pilot and with a lot of hate cards in the format isn't that attractive to run with.
Second, Cage really won't win you games by itself. Cage+fast Sneak Attack can do this, of course. Cage and Leyline aren't ineffective. But in that discussion, it comes down to who has a more powerful hand and play smartly. The dredge player can still win through one cage+counter if it makes you discard your combo pieces. The opposite is true if you have a strong hand and he has nothing. Mulliganing into Cage/Leyline can seal the fate by giving you a poor hand (the same for mulliganing into Nature's Claim mindlessly). That's the point.
Third, when a deck really starts steamrolling every tournament, people start siding more against it (happened recently when Burn won 2 in a row, wich allowed Adam Prosak win the next Tournament without anti-hate sideboard). The same would happen if dredge couldn't win through hate, we would have to side in hate cards against Sneak Show (which isn't usual).
Made top 4 at a local GPT today and picked up a tropical and a tundra. Almost didn't run blood moons in my sideboard, but ended up putting them back in last minute. There were a few maverick decks which might not have gone my way without those bloodmoons.
Bloodmoon, manQuote:
Originally Posted by S1N1STER
I really hate dedicating so much sideboard cards to fight you guys.
Blood moon has been awesome for me. I wouldn't replace it in this deck.
Dredge is a deck that does have a very high game one win percentage. Even in the hands of a lesser pilot, it can still find ways to be just dumb and win games it outright has no business winning, in addition to finding outlets based on opponent's' incompetence or ignorance of how to play against it appropriately.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
So in some bizarre, twisted fashion - yes, you are (kind of) correct: Dredge has the ability to dominate Legacy from a universal playability standpoint. (Or at least in an unprepared meta.)
Cage and Leyline have their moments, but it really depends on how the Dredge player is able to work through the motions of sideboarding and mulliganing when necessary game two and three. What kills Dredge players is essentially the aforementioned; it is far too difficult to simply toss the deck together "As Seen On TV" and expect to do well with it.Quote:
If hate such as Cage and Leyline are so ineffective against competent dredge players, what's stopping the deck from steamrolling through every Legacy tournament?
If I'm running against the Sneak player and he or she mulligans to five with a weak hand and Leyline to start, chances are their hand has been desaturated or completely stripped of anything relevant other than the said hate. In that instance, I can keep even a relatively decent hand with some anti-hate or potentially some filters spells to find answers to it.
Building a good sideboard is something most players do not take advantage of properly, and I find myself sometimes being guilty as well. However, I take the time to test the hell out of it to make sure it's optimal - or at least as optimal as can be hoped for. Leyline and Cage are just cards that buy time against skilled Dredge players. Crypt, Relic, etc. off the top (including sandbagged or well-timed activations) work much better under most circumstances because they are definitive solutions that don't necessitate retarding your opening hand - without the ability to cast it if you don't have it.
You can reliably take a good mulligan as the Sneak player and just cantrip into a Crypt and protect it in hand. Cage is just a card that has to get thrown out as soon as possible and is relatively innocuous as a definitive and crushing answer. But with a good seven or solid six, it is still hard to beat.
Which is why Dredge cannot and will not ever dominate the format. It sometimes gets kicked in the pants and can't do anything about it.
Hurdadurped into more winnings tonight with the last list i posted a few pages back. I did some testing against RUG delver and it's much easier to play against than a good Maverick list/pilot.
Today's record: 5-0-2 matches (split in finals) 10-1-6 in games (ID is three draws)
Overall record: 15-2-4 matches, 31-6-12 games
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Did some testing today as well against RUG and Reanimator.
Reanimator G1 can be tough since they have both discard and countermagic as well as a slightly faster combo than we do. However, I'm confident that post board it gets a lot better for us and they'll get hit by the increased Dredge hate in the meta.
I am also much more confident playing against RUG than I am against Maverick, especially Game 1. Resolving a Show & Tell or Sneak Attack is usually game and we can usually afford to wait a little bit to play around Daze and even Spell Pierce.
Sneak Show put 3 in the Top 8 of Jupiter Games Annual NELC Legacy Invitational:
http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/5...op-8-decklists
Reanimator is a bad matchup, and game 1 is pretty grim. They can land fatties of S&T. If they get a Blazing Archon on the board, it's gg against any Sneaky Tell deck that can't bounce it or kill it. They also run Angel of Dispair and mulptipe Griselbrand. If you have a choice, you should definately try to win with Sneak Attack against them rather than Show and Tell. In games 2-3, you can board in graveyard hate, and which can buy you more time to search for your Sneak Attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Lent cards to Darwin and played my silly brew, and he goes and top 4s. Should've played Sneaks today :(
JustPAT4 - thanks for posting the Jupiter Games link.
A few topics of discussion, in the link PAT posted above, all 2 of the lists had the following in the sideboard:
4 Progenitus
2 Submerge
No Blood Moon
No Leyline of Sanctity
It looks like the 1st and 3rd place finishers built their decks together. Other than a small maindeck difference (+1/-1 Intuition/Misdirection) their decks and sideboards are the same.
Progenitus is an interesting choice. I imagine it is mainly for the Maverick match up. Thoughts?
Submerge is also interesting, although something discussed a few pages back. I imagine it is for the Maverick/RUG match up (or any other deck that runs Forests and plays creatures).
What's everyone think of these decks' sideboards? For discussion purposes, they are:
4 Progenitus
2 Submerge
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipeaway
2 Through the Breach
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique
From the looks of it, they expected a lot of mirror and maverick. I would imagine the plan vs. maverick is something like
-3 Daze
-1 Misdirection
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 FOW/Griselbrand
+1 Wipeaway
+2 Echoing Truth
+2 Submerge
+4 Progenitus
Submerge is also solid vs. Thalia and Pridemage. The inclusion of Progenitus allows us to Show and Tell vs. Maverick with impunity. Is it worth the 4 slots?