Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rektareloaded
with SnT variants showing up again lately heres a SB that i can think of....
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Kederekt Leviathan (just for SNT and/or enchantress maybe???)
4 Dryad Arbor (yup thats correct coz my MD is dakmor/ghast)
4 Reverent Silence (i would rather lose to a belcher/TES/ANT than to a turn 0 or turn 2 enchantment with a -100% misplay :mad: )
4 Chancellor of the Annex :laugh:
hopefully this will work in our local :cry:
What matchups are Chancellors for? And why Leviathan over Angel of Despair? She seems to be strictly better in every aspect.
Btw probability of getting one of 5 Arbors and one of 4 Silences together is low. Not to mention getting both still sometimes doesn't help because of opponent's discard or countermagic. Even if everything goes perfect and you destroy that enchantment, you get left with 6 cards in your hand and without a graveyard so they have plenty of time to get another copy. I don't think it's worth it to waste sb slots trying to fight three cards you can't win through, I'd focus on beating everything else instead.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykpon
What matchups are Chancellors for? And why Leviathan over Angel of Despair? She seems to be strictly better in every aspect.
Lets have a look;
Leviathan handles all threats in play outside lands. Angel only kills one of them, and only if she can target it.
Sure, Leviathan doesn't kill them, it only postpones them, but that can be enough if they're relying on something like SnT etc.
Angel can also cop Misdirection, which I see occasionally.
Leviathan also fills back up our hand, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on game state.
I've tried both. And I see occasions where I'd rather have either.
I like Leviathan, it's really useful against creature decks (like Goblins, Elves, token decks, (sometimes merfolk) etc etc.,) that swarm the board and can possibly kill our bridges, or against locks that prevent us doing anything.
That said, Angel seems a better choice against decks concentrating on combo like SnT.
Choice is yours. I see merit in both.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Leviathan handles all threats in play outside lands. Angel only kills one of them.
Single Angel can deal with up to three permanents, just chain your Therapies and Dread Returns correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Angel can also cop Misdirection, which I see occasionally.
Misdirection does nothing against Angel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slave
Leviathan also fills back up our hand, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on game state.
Filling your hand with a bunch of zombie tokens instead of winning seems to always be a bad thing.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
i guess playing leviathan really depends on the meta in your area. if you're expecting SnT variants and enchantress then play leviathan. if you have no idea what the meta is... then use angel against all other threat.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
So, assuming I'm running the four Arbors maindeck (which I likely will continue doing), here are a bunch of sideboard configurations I've kept in mind for quite some time:
//Config. I
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Reverent Silence
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
//Config. II
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Noxious Revival
//Config. III
[4x] Reverent Silence
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
//Config. IV
[4x] Mindbreak Trap
[4x] Unmask
[3x] Noxious Revival
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Sickening Shoal
//Config. V
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Noxious Revival
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Nature's Claim
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
//Config. VI
[4x] Chancellor of the Forge
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Sickening Shoal
There are plenty of other configs, but these are a few that have been testing decent in specific metas.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rektareloaded
i guess playing leviathan really depends on the meta in your area. if you're expecting SnT variants and enchantress then play leviathan
Can you explain your desire to play Leviathan over Angel against Show and Tell decks? I don't get it at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
//Config. VI
[4x] Chancellor of the Forge
[4x] Chancellor of the Annex
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Sickening Shoal[/cards]
What are red Chancellors for?
Also have you tested Surgical Extractions? That's the only card I never cut from my sb. I covered some of its advantages on page 44 if interested.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
When i'm Running Hollywood decklist with Arbor and 3 Contagion / 1 Shoal this is my sb:
2 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Nature's Claim
2 Reverent Silence
3 Unmask
4 Chancellor of the Annex
I think the biggest problem of manaless is biuld a stong sb. All t1 have a great sb options and this deck cant do it.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ykpon
Can you explain your desire to play Leviathan over Angel against Show and Tell decks? I don't get it at all.
player played show and tell... both players place a card facedown (normally) you showed angel and he showed sneak attack assuming that he still got an open mana. angel triggers, SnT player responded by playing emrakul or whatever. point is in this situation he can still give you 15 damage. which is crucial coz we cant pay 7life anymore with griselbrand
another example.
SnT player played turn 1 cage. then played ancient tomb on turn 2 for Snt. both player played facedown card. you showed angel and he showed emrakul. which will you destroy?
i know its not happening all the time..
i get your point. im also running angels before but we have to assume that they know we have angel of despair on our deck
. and im pretty sold with leviathan thats all . :wink:
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rektareloaded
another example.
SnT player played turn 1 cage. then played ancient tomb on turn 2 for Snt. both player played facedown card. you showed angel and he showed emrakul. which will you destroy?
Emrakul of course. You still have 4 turn clock against them, then.
Example 1 is really akward. It really looks like a made up situation to make Leviathan look > Angel, because A) in the reality you get S&T Emrakuled way more often than this way, and B) This situation is only better that way if you have no permanents on the battlefield, at this point, and in this situation you would lose anyways. Also, Angel is better overall.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
I think you're making a very big mistake by SBing Chancellor of the Annex instead of MDing him over Sickening Shoal and Contagion. Stop and consider that Chancellor of the Annex is already a better answer to Deathrite Shaman than Sickening Shoal is by delaying Deathrite Shaman for a turn instead of killing him in exchange for not double Time Walking yourself. Now consider that Chancellor of the Annex is good vs every, single deck in the format while Sickening Shoal does practically nothing vs any deck that doesn't turn creatures sideways. Finally consider how much more powerful other cards in your SB can be in any given match up compared to Chancellor of the Annex, is SBing in Chancellor of the Annex vs Storm anywhere near as effective as Mindbreak Trap or even Unmask? Hell no, it's a weak ass card compared to the impact other bullets can have on specific match ups, Mindbreak Trap and Unmask vs Combo, Leyline of the Void vs Dredge mirrors or Angel of Despair vs Show&Tell are way better investments.
If you want to keep Dryad Arbor and Reverent Silence as a part of your strategy, I think cutting Sickening Shoal/Contagion from your MD in favor of Chancellor of the Annex and SBing 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Unmask, 4 Reverent Silence and 3 Fetchlands (WTF at Forest without Nature's Claim?) makes way more sense then what you're proposing.
Chancellor of the Forge is a horrible SB card IMO. If you are going to cut the Reverent Silence package, I think you just want to play with cards that straight up blow other decks out of the water like 4 Leyline of the Void and/or 3 Angel of Despair. Your SB cards should provide you with massive value in match up dependent situations, not cutesy shit like Sickening Shoal or Noxious Revival that don't do dick vs anything other than hate.
Right now I play 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Gitaxian Probe MD and 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Unmask, 4 Leyline of the Void and 3 Angel of Despair SB and really, really like that setup vs the more abusive decks in the metagame. Vs Storm you're like aggro-control on fucking steroids by playing all 4 Chancellor/Mindbreak/Unmask.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NecroYawgmoth
Also, Angel is better overall.
no one said leviathan is better than angel :smile:
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
I think you're making a very big mistake by SBing Chancellor of the Annex instead of MDing him over Sickening Shoal and Contagion. Stop and consider that Chancellor of the Annex is already a better answer to Deathrite Shaman than Sickening Shoal is by delaying Deathrite Shaman for a turn instead of killing him in exchange for not double Time Walking yourself. Now consider that Chancellor of the Annex is good vs every, single deck in the format while Sickening Shoal does practically nothing vs any deck that doesn't turn creatures sideways. Finally consider how much more powerful other cards in your SB can be in any given match up compared to Chancellor of the Annex, is SBing in Chancellor of the Annex vs Storm anywhere near as effective as Mindbreak Trap or even Unmask? Hell no, it's a weak ass card compared to the impact other bullets can have on specific match ups, Mindbreak Trap and Unmask vs Combo, Leyline of the Void vs Dredge mirrors or Angel of Despair vs Show&Tell are way better investments.
If you want to keep Dryad Arbor and Reverent Silence as a part of your strategy, I think cutting Sickening Shoal/Contagion from your MD in favor of Chancellor of the Annex and SBing 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Unmask, 4 Reverent Silence and 3 Fetchlands (WTF at Forest without Nature's Claim?) makes way more sense then what you're proposing.
Chancellor of the Forge is a horrible SB card IMO. If you are going to cut the Reverent Silence package, I think you just want to play with cards that straight up blow other decks out of the water like 4 Leyline of the Void and/or 3 Angel of Despair. Your SB cards should provide you with massive value in match up dependent situations, not cutesy shit like Sickening Shoal or Noxious Revival that don't do dick vs anything other than hate.
Right now I play 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Gitaxian Probe MD and 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Unmask, 4 Leyline of the Void and 3 Angel of Despair SB and really, really like that setup vs the more abusive decks in the metagame. Vs Storm you're like aggro-control on fucking steroids by playing all 4 Chancellor/Mindbreak/Unmask.
This sold me to play Chancellor MD instead of Contagion and Shoal. I'm keeping at least 4 removal in the SB though. :)
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sherko7
This sold me to play Chancellor MD instead of Contagion and Shoal. I'm keeping at least 4 removal in the SB though. :)
Another thing that occured to me is that I think it may be better to play an Angel of Despair in the MD over a Flayer of the Hatebound because the two cards serve similar roles, circumventing Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, Peacekeeper, Glacial Chasm etc. and having a free bullet vs Show&Tell 1/6 games gives the card a little more utility. It also feed Ichorid, pitches to Unmask and is a better stand alone reanimation target (I think).
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NecroYawgmoth
Emrakul of course. You still have 4 turn clock against them, then.
Cage if you win next turn, Emrakul if you don't. But a good SnT player would never make such play unless time is over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Another thing that occured to me is that I think it may be better to play an Angel of Despair in the MD over a Flayer of the Hatebound because the two cards serve similar roles, circumventing Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, Peacekeeper, Glacial Chasm etc. and having a free bullet vs Show&Tell 1/6 games gives the card a little more utility. It also feed Ichorid, pitches to Unmask and is a better stand alone reanimation target (I think).
Check page 44 to see what happens when you speak about cutting Flayer and delete your post before it's too late :)
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Another thing that occured to me is that I think it may be better to play an Angel of Despair in the MD over a Flayer of the Hatebound because the two cards serve similar roles, circumventing Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, Peacekeeper, Glacial Chasm etc. and having a free bullet vs Show&Tell 1/6 games gives the card a little more utility. It also feed Ichorid, pitches to Unmask and is a better stand alone reanimation target (I think).
Flayer of the Hatebound is one of this archetype's most important cards. Cutting it is definitely not the right play unless you have some freakish sideboard-special creature to take its place.
And that would have to be a very special creature.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
...still I am quite sure you rarely to never need the 2nd one, because you'll flip your deck anyways when you DR Griselbro, otherwise you are in a losing position anyways. Why do we need 2, when we cast DR rarely on him before Grisel?
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NecroYawgmoth
...still I am quite sure you rarely to never need the 2nd one, because you'll flip your deck anyways when you DR Griselbro, otherwise you are in a losing position anyways. Why do we need 2, when we cast DR rarely on him before Grisel?
Because having 2 Flayers in the GY already allow you to combo-out for fatal damage, even without Griselbrand.
Situation: 2 Flayers, 2 Dread Returns, 1 Cabal Therapy and 1 Bridge in GY
Dread Return for Flayer#1 - Deal 4 damage to opponent (Total of 4 damage)
Dread Return for Flayer#2 (using Flayer#1 as sacrifice) - Undying for Flayer 1 Kicks in, dealing 5 damage, then Flayer 2 Enters play dealing 4 damage twice (because you have 2 Flayers; Total of 17 damage)
Cabal Therapy using Flayer #2 as sacrifice - Undying kicks in for Flayer 2, dealing 5 damage twice (Total of 27 damage)
With only a few Griselbrands in the main, you'd want some form of redundancy to your combo, and having 2 Flayers main deck allow you that
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rektareloaded
no one said leviathan is better than angel :smile:
Leviathan would be preferred when you're seeking to return everything back to thier hands, and you have Bridges in the yard you don't wanna nuke.
Angel is no doubt, a better card, and not just because it's black either. I just find Angel ends up getting Bridges exiled for me quite often. :mad:
Like rektareloaded, I've tried running both out of the board.
Leviathan gets a lot stronger when you can bring it into play and you have Therapies in the yard aswell as Bridges.
Provided the main opponents' threat is creature based, I don't think Angel isn't always the better option.
Depends greatly on what deck your opponent is playing, what they're doing, and what the current board state is like.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SBGpinas
Because having 2 Flayers in the GY already allow you to combo-out for fatal damage, even without Griselbrand.
With only a few Griselbrands in the main, you'd want some form of redundancy to your combo, and having 2 Flayers main deck allow you that
I can attest to needing more than 1 Flayer.
When I forst started playing this deck I only used one.
Been quite a few times I've discovered a Flayer sitting on the bottom of my library after needing one to get past Leyline of Sanctity.
Since I've been running two, the likelihood of me winning with Flayer > DR > Troll through Sanctity became much more likely and consistent.
I've been fairly reluctant to try running no FLayer and 4 Grisel. Extraction blows.....
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
Flayer of the Hatebound is one of this archetype's most important cards. Cutting it is definitely not the right play unless you have some freakish sideboard-special creature to take its place.
And that would have to be a very special creature.
I've never had issues with running 1, returning Griselbrand is usually enough anyway.
