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Right, but do you think the inability to beat those decks - like Goblins - is a biproduct of play mistakes and poor mulligan strategy rather than tight play? LED Dredge crushes most of those match-ups if played correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Maverick is on the decline and we just race them out anyhow. Elves is the same thing. I like Firestorm, don't get me wrong, but I think right now it's not as good as it was a few months back.
I won't waste 4 slots for one deck i normally race. And i more likely wanna have Ashen Ghouls than Firestorm in the RUG matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
K1w1
I've observed that this is more commonly done in LED builds. The same isn't as true for LEDless builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Cheers,
jares
Clearly you aren't playing Firestorm specifically aimed at beating Goblins. The fact its applicable to the matchup is just a little gratuity. And there's no rule that you can't play Firestorm and Ghoul in your board. Ghoul takes up two slots and can be sided alongside three (or even four) Firestorm with ease.Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
The UGr tempo decks don't play many threats, we all know that. Firestorm buys us more time than anyone seems to want to admit. It'll at least earn you two turns. That's the minimum and assumes they have another threat in hand or on the top three they can cantrip into.
Wrong. For me, because i'm playing the quadlaser, there is no space for firestorm. The Ghouls are taking six (6) slots in the board! 3 Ghouls, 3 Lands. And this is right. And my results are speaking for itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Even if i lose against decks like Goblins, i can give a [...] about it. They are really rare.
Threshold, Maverick, UW Miracle, Dredge, BUG Control, some Storm. These are the decks i have to face and in this matchups i really don't need a [...] firestorm.
K1w1
There is however a certain rule that lets you choose only a limited number of sideboard cards and I'd be curious what you'd cut for them ( bear in mind that in a LED build you'll end up spending 2/3 slots for extra lands, slots that could perfectly been occupied by Firestorm in LEDless builds).Quote:
And there's no rule that you can't play Firestorm and Ghoul in your board
The only critter Firestorm really hits is Delver, as Goyf will usually be to big and Nimble Mongoose doesn't care about Firestorm anyway.Quote:
The UGr tempo decks don't play many threats, we all know that. Firestorm buys us more time than anyone seems to want to admit. It'll at least earn you two turns. That's the minimum and assumes they have another threat in hand or on the top three they can cantrip into.
Considering that their counters are most likely cheap taxing spells ( Daze / Pierce, Flusterstorm), combined with Wasteland , will often just turn Firestorm into a 1 mana discard spell that will eventually take a counter from their hand.
Allthough that might not seem like the worst thing that a spell could achieve we don't really need something like this in the matchup.
As Kiwi said: Either side the Ashen Ghouls + Lands or don't sideboard at all against RUG, play tight and you'll win, unless they got the nut draw.
Yet I have to admit that all of the above is just valid if you play the german list and if with RUG we both mean the same Deck. If you are looking for advise with the combo oriented list running Grinselbrand/ etc., or if you are talking about those RUG decks running Snapcaster / Lavamancer / stuff, then I'd love to hear opinions from other players, as allmost no one in germany plays those decks ( well no one who is succesfull with them).
I would not be surprised if the RUG igri talks about is the same RUG that Drew Levin used to display to the world his nonexisting knowledge of Legacy.
Spell Pierce over Stifle:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Basicly, Firestorm just has this incredible antisynergy with LED. That's why I wouldn't run it anymore.
I would play maindeck Firestorm in LEDless Dredge lists, though.
I always figured firestorm was for scaveging ooze. I didn't even consider it against RUG.
See, quad laser isnt a variant I prefer because you have to waste (yes, waste) three slots on lands that should be in your deck anyways. I'm not going to say you have to run Firestorm, but I will as long as I have the space for them. Using 14 lands in your starting 60 gives you this option.
And I'm referring to the lists from Worcester. No need to guess. I already said that and listed them.
And I side out LED when I bring in Firestorm, just like most people.
Against RUG, I can side in four Firestorm and two Ghoul because I have ten gold lands already available.
You never side out Lion's Eye Diamond for Firestorm, ever. In the match-ups where Firestorm would be necessary, you can simply roll an opponent in conjunction with LED and blow them out of the water. Firestorm is specifically geared toward trapping turbo-aggressive aggro strategies, something LED Dredge doesn't have a hard time dealing with anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
If you're staring down a Scavenging Ooze and you have your LED's boarded out, that's your first mistake right there. Lion's Eye Diamond is a facilitator with your draw spells and can be played before you even consider discarding cards to Firestorm. For what it does, it really isn't necessary as most tribal decks have either disappeared or pop up in random tournaments here and there. If it's worth playing in your meta, go for it. But you should never board out LED for Firestorm. While both serve different purposes, one has the ability to create a degenerate set of circumstances in your favor while the other can't. And most decks that opt to run hate in the form of creatures really are all-in on them to be the ones to save them the game, like Ooze or a one-of Bog.
If you're sitting back and waiting to use Firestorm, you're essentially losing already by giving an opponent more time to draw into hate or conditional counter-magic. You're better off just going for the win with LED and ending the game as soon as possible. Scavenging Ooze will sit there scratching its head on turn two while half of your deck is in your graveyard. Anti-hate in the form of anything other than creatures can be answered with varying sideboard choices. Hate in the form of creatures, however, can effectively be raced with LED at the ready and basically taking away a top-decked answer from the opponent. Even if you're looking at a board state of six to eight Zombies and a few Narcomoebas, that's still pretty good. I'll take that over a turn three Firestorm into maybe two or three Zombies and walking into a Crypt or Relic the next turn any day.
Remember, LED is the card that can also lift you from the depths of defeat after hate has been applied. For instance, let's say you top-deck a draw spell like Looting and play it, thus drawing into a Thug and a LED. Now you have the opportunity to re-stabilize, something people don't give LED enough credit for.
(And don't forget, pitching your Bridge(s) to Firestorm sometimes is the only way to cast it at a given time. That in turn exiles them in the process.)
This can be said about any style this deck can be build in. I, for example don't like to waste(and I mean it the same way you meant it, I'm not mocking or anything)4-5 Slots in my first 60 for lands I don't need game 1 and the to me almost useless DR+possible target.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
I was looking for my NonLED lists before Looting and I almost always used 3 slots for situational DR targets in my board. I think if I were to play DR, I had at least Hypnotist, Iona, Angel of Dispair in my board.
As to siding out LEDs for Firestorms, I don't get why you would be doing that(Edit: should read all posts, Hollywood already spoke on that matter)
Also just out of curiosity: Why is a land in the board a wasted slot? You don't need answers to hate preboard, so you don't need the extra lands. If you side in answers like Chain of Vapor or Nature's Claim, you basicly try to be able to play a more controlling game if need be, so you need the extra lands. Also the plan B of hardcasting stuff to turn it into Gas via Blocks/Therapies/DR is really only coming up game 2/3. If you had the lands in your Maindeck though, you have less cards you actually need game 1(e.g. Cabal Therapy, and I still don't get why people are only playing three of this card)
Gerry T's lists from the past few SCG tournaments containe LED with 3 firestorm in the SB. I used to play a lot of dredge and have been away from it for a little bit, why exactly is firestorm such a terrible choice right now? At the very least it is an uncounterable discard outlet. Also could someone post the ashen ghoul list people keep referencing? I haven't seen it. Thanks in advance.
EDIT POST: I found the "quadlaser" list. What decks does ghoul shine against? What is the correct strategy to abuse him? Is he meant to fill the same roll nether shadow does in Gerry T's list?
A lot of folks still run Firestorm in their sideboard, myself included. Even though it is an uncounterable discard outlet, it still doesn't do anything more of in the match-ups where it would matter as opposed to LED - but not nearly as fast. The goal of Firestorm is to trap an opponent into overextending their board state and just blow them out. But the truth is that there really is no point in waiting when you can just beat them straight up with LED anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
Take for instance RUG. Firestorm is unlikely to kill a Tarmogoyf, can't hit Mongoose, and is a waste against a two-of Ooze that can be raced and beaten. The only other target is Delver, and to a lesser extent Snapcaster Mage. You don't board to beat the creatures, you board to beat the hate - something LED Dredge can already do effectively enough. Against Elves, stripping their hand is just as good as wiping out their board, and against Goblins, you just race them and try to blow them out as fast as possible. Firestorm also forces you to hold back and keep open your potentially only land and thus open susceptibility to Wasteland - which could be horrible if you have draw spells in your hand.
Ghoul and Nether Shadow are both representing an alternative strategy to fight extraction effects(the other strategy being responding to Extraction with Coffin Purge/ Memory's Journey). There is an added bonus in being good against Control and Extirpate.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
I like Ghoul more because I don't play DR, so 0 mana 1/1 haste guys are pretty bad compared to a B 3/1 haste guy. If you have the additional mass sacrifice outlet in Dread Return, that could be different. You normally play like 2-3 of either of those.
To clarify: Firestorm has never been a bad card to play in Dredge, and I don't think it is bad now. It just isn't good enough vs. Maverick in my experience, compared to boarding in either Claims(that you need anyway if you expect a Enlightened Tutor toolbox) or nothing at all and race them with LED.
In addition, Hollywood pretty much nailed it(twice)
On a completely different note:
To the non-germans: because of a rather influential and really really good Canadian player (Fabian Moyschewitz), who has a huge influence on Canadian lists in Germany, Savenging Ooze is not played in Canadian builds here at all.Well, not at higher tables at least. What is your experience against Savenging Ooze in RUG? I played it today on Cockatrice and completely crushed him because, well, he's playing a mana sink creature in a very greedy deck with only 4-5 green sources. What are your thoughts on it?
<3Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
For those of you running no dread returns has it affected your game at all? I only DR for troll MD but I recall there being times where you just really need the big body. The current list I'm practicing has 1 DR main 1 DR sb, do the majority of LED dredge players find no DR in the 75 to be significantly better?
I don't think putting a single land in your sideboard is a waste. That's only because I think all lists should have at least 10 gold lands in the first place. Putting three in the board? That's when I think you've committed too many slots to something you want game one anyways, no matter the matchup.
I don't side out LED first necessarily. Breakthrough is definitely my most sided out card. I really haven't found a strict formula for sideboarding yet. I change what I take out pretty regularly while I'm deciding what I like best. Keeping in LED could be correct, but that's not the point I was trying to address. My whole point was Firestorm has application against a lot of decks and I can't see myself removing it from my board anytime soon.
Your posts made a lot of sense Hollywood, except this. Why do still have firestorm in your sideboard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I've been really busy transitioning out of the military that I haven't had a whole lot of time these last few weeks to work on my sideboard. It's leaving, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
See, that's what I meant. That's just not true for everybody. I don't feel I need 10 gold lands main. I guess this leads to nothing^^Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk