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I've put chains in off of show and tell X number of times and won X games. They have to play around it too hard and it bastardizes their game plan. I see a lot of feel smart discussion going on and not a lot of practical application of the card. It's not god's gift to Jund, but it is a powerful card. Yes it's dead here/there but the reward is high enough to be worth it.
The question wasn't whether it was worth it. That much isn't disputed. The answer is absolutely "yes". The question was if it was worth running two.
Hey Guys,
Had a pretty poor night last night and it made me want to re-evaluate my sideboard.
First round I lost to Lands in 3 games. First game he dispatched me with Marit with little effort (made at the end of my turn so Liliana was of no help). Game 2 I surgical Life from the Loam, and I see a pretty disappointing hand (for me at least) with two Thespian's Stages and two Dark Depths. I needed to draw perfectly and have my opponent make the right choices to win, and I did. I drew another surgical extraction, and then a liliana of the veil. I played the Liliana, and ticked up, hoping he would discard the extra dark depths. He did, and I surgically extracted it. Needless to say, I won that game, but game three he just assembled natural turn 3 Depths Stage after I surgicalled his turn 1 life form the loam.
Round 2 I got a Bye.
Round 3 I got paired against UWr Miracles. Nothing fancy, just straight up old fashioned Terminus/Entreat Miracles. I was excited because I thought it would turn out to be a good matchup, but the results were to the contrary. Game 1 starts out fine, I thoughtseize a Jace and play some dudes, attack him pretty low before he finds his first terminus. After that point the game drags out and he plays and starts ticking up a Jace. I have a DRS and Lili on the board, but need to topdeck a Bloodbraid Elf or a Punishing Fire to deal with this Jace. I find neither, however I am able to ultimate Lili 2 times, first getting rid of Coutner-Top + lands, the second time crippling his manabase. He kept choosing the piles with his Jace however, and I never really find an answer. He ults me when my Liliana is at 6 counters for the 3rd time. Game 2 I bring in Blasts, Duress, Pithing Needle, and the 4th Hymn. This game is a little weirder, I lose a Lili to V. Clique and both of our life totals get pretty low. I stabilize at around 8 life, but Jace into Brainstorm into Top finds him an Entreat within the next couple of turns. I was particularly unlucky because he seemed to always find exactly what he needed using his top and my two Bloodbraids cascaded into dead discard and dead abrupt decay. This was a terrible match to lose, especially after 2 Lili ultimates in game 1.
Round 4 I get another bye somehow, but one of the guys who split first is down to play. He is on Death and Taxes, and he is a strong player. Game 1 starts off a little weird. I have no answer to turn 1 mom which complicates the rest of the game. He plays 2 revokers, 1 on Deathrite, and 1 on Liliana. I end up drawing both of those cards and not the double removal I need for his Mom. Eventually his board of Mom, Revoker x2, Serra Avenger, and Aven Mindcensor do me in with me having a Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, and Sylvan Library. I bring in E Plague, Goglari Charms, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, and Jitte. Game 1 I kill off his aether vials using an Abrupt Decay and a Maelstrom Pulse (he played 1 on turn one and then another on turn two), and I land a Dark Confidant to begin drawing some cards. He plays a Revoker naming Liliana, which I end up drawing into the following turn. He plays a Serra Avenger which I have no answer to, and then a Jitte that I have no answer to. He is keeping me locked under Rish Port + multiple wastelands, so I never really do get a chance to get back into the game.
After losing every match that I actually had an opponent in, I started to contemplate my decisions throughout the evening and what I could have done better. I know that Jund is a good deck and stands at least a 45% chance against all of the decks I played, but somehow either through play mistakes or bad luck I could only manage to win 1 game against Lands. Death and Taxes is supposed to be a great matchup but I can't seem to get an edge. I have seen the same thing happen to other Jund players so I know it isn't just me. Any time Punishing Jund faces Death and Taxes on SCG Feature Matches the Death and Taxes players seem to always win.
Anyhow, here is my sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Hymn to Tourach.
If you guys knew you were likely to face Lands, Miracles, Storm, Patriot Delver, BUG Delver, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, Food Chain, Shardless BUG, and Esper Deathblade, how would you construct your boards?
Regarding destroying Aether Vial in DnT I don't think it's the best thing to be done really. As you wrote it yourself, you spent decay and pulse on them and then had no outs from Avenger and etc. I'd only consider it an option if I already had answers for other creatures such as bolt/p fire. In merfolk, vial lets them escalate in power insanely quick but it's not as powerful in dnt. It's more pf a sinergy thing with rishadan more than anything else.
As for miracles i think you had more of a bad luck problem, but usually i try not flooding the board with double tarmos for ex, keeping one in hand incase he has terminus. Flooding the board in zoo was acceptable because its so easy to get back in game but jund has potentially just 7 creatures to beat it down, 3 of which you were never able to draw.
Your sideboard seems fine though I don't like playing plague if youre already running charms. I'd exchange that for a bigger board swipe such as either pernicious deed (prevents them to use Entreat) or toxic deluge. It's just a great tool against everything plus goyf food.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
The general opinion about the D&T matchup being great is pretty much incorrect: this is NOT a great matchup, unless we draw the nuts and/or we fill our sideboard with hate.
Even with that, they can easily lock us out of the game with their mana denial. They also have RIP to deal with our best answer (Punishing fire) and our best blocker/finisher (Goyf).
All in all, the best cards we have to beat them are Confidant and Library, which provide card advantage without the risk of playing a Tourach and hitting their Liege.
We definitely have all the tools to win this matchup, but we have to (in order of priority):
- draw enough mana resources (lands/shaman)
- assemble the Fire/Grove sinergy
- get rid of their RIP asap, either with discard or removal
- land a Confidant and/or Library to get an edge on cards
- land a Liliana and lock the game with her
I played this matchup lots of times vs competent opponents, and the only doubt I still have is about Tourach: it's obviously great for the card advantage it provides (which is huge against D&T), but the risk of hitting Liege is pretty high as well.
Lately I prefer to keep a number of those in postboard games (something like 3 on the play and 2 on the draw) toghether with 2/3 Thoughtseize, because I feel that even if we hit a Liege, we can still deal with it with our removal suite.
On the other hand, I'm a little more skeptical about Thoughtseize: they are very useful against D&T as well as any Stoneforge deck, but the 2 damage we suffer from them is NOT negligible at all, since D&T plays the aggro role and wants to race us. Right now I prefer to swith some Thoughtseize out for game 2/3 and keep the Tourach in.
I'm playing more sweepers than most as I think Jund can definitely get tempo'd out.
I have:
1 x Massacre
1 x Jund Charm
1 x Golgari Charm
2 x Pernicious Deed
I can't stress enough how insane the deeds are. Against things like DnT and elves it can win 'unwinnable' games, and it's fantastic against miracles too. If you get one to stick early, it can get you out of a counterbalance lock, bloon moon if they play it and it stops them entreating.
The Massacre is a little nod to TNN, especially in UWR delver matchups. I've had some games where I wiped a Delver, TNN and SFM for 0 mana. That is obviously a perfect scenario, but I feel it's a card people should be playing more and it's insane in the DnT matchup too.
The charms serve multiple purposes, so they are nice inclusions.
The rest of my SB is:
1 Chains of Mefistopholes
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Forest
2 Pyroblast
So would bring in the Grip and Pyroblasts for the Miracles matchup. It can be tough, though. I feel like it depends on the skill and draw of the miracles player a lot of the time.
A few dumb questions here from a newbie Jund player:
1: Why is this non-existent on MODO? I guess it has a higher price tag than some decks, but it is close enough to Modern Jund that I feel like that couldn't be the reason it is unpopular.
2: What match-ups are we bringing in Loam for? It seems good against 12-Post variants so we can recur Wastelands. There has to be more than that if it is taking a SB slot.
Thanks! Again, I apologize for my lack of knowledge here.
1: no idea, it just finished 2nd in an scg so maybe time for a resurgenceQuote:
Originally Posted by cab0747
2: any grindy match, vs land destruction. Not sure about 12 post, personally i want to be super aggro vs them and loam may be too slow.
So ive been having good results with jund. My main deck is the same as dustin shields. Sideboard the same also: -1 phyrexian revoker, -1 grafdiggers cage, -1 maelstrom pulse, +1 pithing needle (for depths), +1 pyroblast (for blue decks, +1 life from the loam.
I think every match up is decent apart from fast combo and burn. Miracles is a cakewalk. Sometimes, delver decks can godhand you but generally its favourable. I love this deck!
Ok, I have an event coming up tomorrow and I am finalising my board. This is what I have right now:
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
What I am planing for is: Lands, Loam, Elves, Reanimator, Blade, DnT, SnT and Storm. I am guessing there may be one Mud deck too, but shy of throwing in a Null Rod, not much more I can do about that. I expect Miracles to be low, but I am set as I think I can be for that. Can anyone see a card I have missed and should be playing?
Looks solid! Personally im not sold on grafdiggers cage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Just to mention, Plague is the 15tg card.
Cage is a catch all to Elves, Dredge, Oops and Reanimator. I expect to see all there in some fashion or another. Opps being my biggest fear. But I need a way to stop Dredge targets before they can Dredge (Loam with a cycle land comes to mind) so I am uneasy about Surgical. At the same time, Opps is fast so I am kind of tossing up Extraction and Extirpate.
I like Cage in Jund, has won me several matches. On Reanimator it leaves you to worry about only Show and tell. I have beaten two reanimators like this a couple weeks ago in the same tourney. And the extra interaction to Green Sun Zenith/Natural Order is awesome.
I like extirpate but it think surgical is more suited for jund due to the way it's mana intensive. Plus Deathrite Shaman is there to fix our lives. The rest of the list is rock solid. I don't like Engineered Plague so much though, I'd change it for a more exploding effect such as either Pernicious Deed or Toxic Deluge. Plgue is way too especific, while those other two will work as well and will also get bigger threats!
Cage is really nice helps me against my friend who loves using ANT when he tries to combo out with PIF. It's something he must answer. I used to run 3x Leyline of the Void as my GY hate card but that was when Dredge was all over the place.
For me Surgicals/Extirpates weren't doing it for me. I only used it once to great success and it was against RUG Delver for a color lockout but never did I see it against a combo matchup. So instead I just added in pyroblasts.
So at a recent local event (went 3-1) I need to tell people how unreal it was playing with pernicious deed in the SB. I ran 2x deed and each time I landed one (which was 4 times) games ended. I played against DnT and Belcher where I landed them and they single handedly won me the match. Against Belcher I cleared the board of 18 goblin tokens G2 and G3 he was slow to go off and I popped deed for 0 which cleared an LED, chome mox, and lotus petal. DnT it was a complete board wipe each time including his equipment. I followed each deed up with a bloodbraid elf in this matchup which hit the obvious...tarmogoyf.
My conclusion...deeds to me seems like an auto-include in the 75...thoughts?
"Auto-include" is a very strong term. Grafdigger's Cage is the only auto-include in Jund's sideboard. Every other piece in the board, from REBs to Massacres, can be replaced. But not Grafdigger's Cage.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
Pernicious Deed is a very strong card and I personally love it, but it's also expensive, doesn't do anything unique, and is not a huge player in any matchup we're actually scared of. Yay, you got value as is expected when you drop a sweeper, but there are quite a few cards that come first in terms of necessity for both of those match-ups.
Planning on trying out this list in my local weekly tomorrow night. I don't think there are any glaring issues; it's pretty stock.
23 Lands:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
15 Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
22 Spells:
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
3 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
The mainboard is a standard Punishing list. I'm playing with a smattering of cards in the sideboard to get an idea of my options and which ones I like. Something a playtesting partner of mine suggested is Batterskull as an additional trump card in midrange mirrors (particularly those that do not run True-Name Nemesis, but even that card is manageable with this 75). Does anyone have experience running Batterskull in their sideboard? Was it good (and, if so, where)? What did you play it in favor of in your sideboard?
I like how you managed to include so many different stuff in the main deck. i refer to Toxic Deluge and Jitte, I think it could be a good one, especially if you're expecting a lot of delver decks. I kinda want to try this eventually.
How did the tourney go?
Longtime Jund player here who has recently returned to play after several years absence. I've read through most of the thread and I have some questions for more recent players of the theme.
First off, when I played Jund it was more of an aggro deck than it seems to be at this point. Has Jund become a mid-range deck over the last few years? Things like Punishing Fire and Liliana of the Veil look very mid-rangy to me. 23-24 lands looks kind of mid-rangy also when 9 of the lands don't produce black mana. Is it a common thing to get into the mid-game looking to stabilize like Junk does and then win from there?
Liliana of the Veil is a very strong card. That said I have issues at times when I play her. She's dead against Dredge and Lands. She doesn't really help much against Miracles unless I already have them at very low cards, they play too much off of the top of the deck for her to be really good against them. She has lists that she is a powerhouse against, like most of the Delver lists, Junk and the mirror. Is she an auto-include in Jund at this point? She seems like a great sideboard card to me, for the matchups that are very problematic, like Dark Depths and Show and Tell. How often do you play her game one and find that she wasn't the answer you were looking for?
BBE is definitely mid-rangy but it is a finisher that can also kill Jace if they tapped out to play him so I don't mind the mid-rangy aspect as much. Do people find BBE winning games with the same consistency that he did in Jund a few years ago?
The rough shell I'd like to play looks something like this:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Dark Confidant
1x Sylvan Library
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bayou
4x Badlands
1x Forest
1x Swamp
That's 54 cards with 6 choices left to make. The consensus in the non-Punishing Fire builds would seem to be 3-4 Liliana of the Veil, 0-1 Maelstrom Pulse/Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed, 0-1 Volrath's Stronghold/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Is Sensei's Divining Top doable as a 3-of for the synergy with fetches, Bob and BBE? If the list is going to be mid-rangy it'd be nice to be able to keep something on top for when I need it. Too many lists are playing Thoughtseize and Hymns for me to be really comfortable drawing my solutions randomly. Do people think this is just too passive and DoA at this point?
Is Life From the Loam worthwhile in this meta given the prevalence of lowland Delver lists and Liliana? I hate having no cards in the list that I can discard easily and even turn into a plus when the opponent drops Liliana. One of the things I hate having my opponent do when I play Liliana is dropping LFtL when I activate her.
Are there any obvious aggro creatures that I missed in my list above? By aggro I mean lands turn 3 or earlier and if the opponent can't manage them they're going to finish things off. I used to use Countryside Crusher as a 2-of to finish things off. Is he just too slow at this point?
I'm also looking for answers in a meta that is very BUG, RUG and TA heavy. My first two drops aren't likely to stick well. One of the things I'm experimenting with is Sprouting Thrinax because he beats Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay and Liliana, which count for much of the removal in my meta. He also stands down all the little non-flying beaters and trades nicely with Nimble Mongoose and Treetop Village both of which can be problematic at times. He blocks Goyf for 2 or 3 turns, sometimes 4 as I am digging for an answer. Is the power curve too high to make him effective at this point? I generally don't put creatures in the sideboard because they are too weak to justify the slot.
Any help would be appreciated. My first foray back into Jund several months ago taught me that the meta is a very different thing now. Miracles and Abrupt Decay, not that that's a bad thing. :)
His AC, welcome to the thread.
First, yes Jund is now very much a Midrange deck. While a full on Aggro plan can work, it is really more of a plan B and not the main plan. Normal you are playing a limited control game with the hope of 2 for 1 or sometimes 1 for 1 until you get the upper hand. That is why Punishing Fire is now more or less an Auto include, because it adds to that 2 for 1 game plan. As for Lili, she works in much the same way. While she will have her bad matches (as most cards do) she has her strengths as well. To say she is bad against Dredge I think is a bit of a misconception. No, making them discard is not great, but I have used her -2 on myself before and blown out their bridges much to the surprise of the Dredge player. Honestly, Lili is a needed part of the current shell and you should seek to run at lest 3 copies of her. While she will seam lackluster in some matches, she shines too often to cut.
BBE is not a finisher, it is in fact another way to 2 for 1. Again working to the decks over all plan. Goyf will often be at lest half again as strong as Elf when you slam him in at about the same time you could cast Elf. What Elf brings is another form of Removal. A card that can offer an answer to most situations and can do some crazy things like bring in a Lili as he enters or Pulse away the biggest threat to you on the table.
Loam is likely not to be as useful if your not running Fire. I would not look into it with your list. While you can Waste lock, it is cute and slow and if you have the board state to make it work, your likely already winning that game.
Top is not great. It costs mana to use and never gets you ahead in the game. You need to waste your draw step if you want to use it. Run 2 Library, not top.
If you are having issues with RUG and BUG, I honestly think you should look at PF and Lili. PF on Delver is nuts, if they counter it you just get it back, it ends Goyf fights by adding in that extra point of damage and it deals with DRS like a boss. Lili can come in and mop up Tombstalker after it is all said and done.
In all, I am getting the impression you played Jund in the Standard days and your wanting to merge it to the Legacy deck. This is a good plan, its a strong choice, but to get it running optimally, it might cost you a fair bit.
Dice.
I played a more aggro Legacy version of Jund than the format supports right now. Kird Apes, Goyfs, Bobs, Countryside Crushers, BBE's with Thoughtseize and Hymns for disruption and Bolts and Maelstrom Pulse for removal. It had LFtL built-in also for waste locks and for the CC's. I'd rather go back down that road but I don't think it is possible given the way the meta has evolved. Miracles would be an absolutely miserable matchup.