I think that if you run monolith you should cut your mox.Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
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I think that if you run monolith you should cut your mox.Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
You might be right. I'm going to try different configurations of 4 Cantor, 4 Monolith, 2/2, 3/1 and see what happens. I just can't seem to find what I like the most in that slot. Street Wraith is OK, Cantor is OK, Monolith is OK, Pyretic is OK. Nothing seems spectacular. The rest of the list seems pretty tight, its just this last slot thats giving some trouble.
There's nothing wrong with Street Wraith--I ran it myself in that slot in the 1-land build before monolith was unbanned. But the problem is it's only a mana source 80% of the time--the rest of the time it's a second win condition, which blows.
Other nice thing about monoliths:
It allows you to play chicken with your opponent, even when you have no intention of driving off the cliff that turn. So you can run Monolith out and pass if it resolves--something that does not work with Pyretic Ritual.
It stores more mana than wild cantor, and gives you a positive amount that turn if you need it.
It also lets you keep playing hard-to-remove mana sources to the board, which can be important if you need to topdeck into a win-condition--say, if your opponent thoughtseizes you for your wincon t1.
One thing I was thinking is that with 4 belcher, 4 mox, 4 petal, 4 Monolith, and 4 LED, the Goblin Welder plan is close to workable. Not sure it's actually better than Response, though.
I haven't even gotten to testing with welder:) With that many artifacts in the list you could start looking at mox opal. I agree with everything you say promoting monolith, the only thing I don't like is that it costs 2. The deck has plenty of two cost spells, cantor at one is a great bridge to Tinder Wall, +1 storm, and mana that sticks around a turn. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just not convinced your right. I hate looking at hands that just can't quite kick off. Plus it hurts Chrome Mox a lot to run four more no colors and Chrome Mox is hard enough in this deck as is. I'll give the cantor route some shots and then do some more more testing, played a numch today and was really liking cantor, though I agree that slot is the weakest in the deck. I am saying the jury is still out:)
2nd place with Belcher yesterday, 76 players. Will post report in a while.
Finish: 2nd out of 76
Decklist:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Taiga
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tinder Wall
___
60
Sideboard:
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Guttural Response
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
Round 1: Goblins
Game 1: He wins die roll. I Tendrils for 10 on my turn. GG. Win.
Game 2: Belcher T3. GG. Win.
Kinda funny because in our table, there were 2 other Belchers. Unluckily, the other one was paired to Merfolk while the other one was paired to Faeries. Dodged 2 blue decks there.
After Rd.1: 1-0
Round 2: Mono Black
Game 1: He wins die roll. He Hymns taking out 1 of 2 Burning Wish in my hand. I still managed to Empty the Warrens (ETW) for 16 though. Win.
Game 2: He plays Hymn again taking out the lone BWish. I pass the turn. He plays Nighthawk. Drew ETW and I cast ETW for 16 again. He plays Bob. I attack and pass turn. He takes 2 to Bob and casts Tombstalker. Turn comes back to me I attack and game is over. W
I was lucky enough to have avoided his Ratchet Bomb(s)
After Rd.2: 2-0
Round 3: Affinity
Game 1: I play and ETW for 16 which went all the way. W
Game 2: He lays down lots of artifact creatures while I ETW for 10 which was not enough. What I should have done was wait for another mana source and cast double ETW which could have netted me 24 tokens instead. He Berserks his Ornithopters twice and I lose. L
Game 3: I play and ETW for 10 again but he manages to outrace me. I was down to a top deck for the first time in the day. I had 8 tokens and he was down to 6 but he had 2 Ravagers, an Ornithopter with a Cranial Plating and many more. Id surely die on his next turn and need to draw a BWish. My board was a lone Taiga and a LED and my Hand was an ESG and a Desperate Ritual. I drew the card, placed it face down on the table, patted it hard, placed it in my hand, and it was a…………………………… BWish!!! Lol wtf! I tapped Taiga, removed ESG from game and cast Desperate Ritual. I played the card and Wished for Goblin War Strike for 8! W
After Rd.3: 3-0
Rd.4: Slivers
Game 1: I ETW for 10. Win
Game 2: We has a lot of counters. On to Game 3. Lose
Game 3: I managed to lay down 2 Xantid Swarms. I ETW for 10. Win
My only blue matchup of the day!
After Rd.4: 4-0
Rd.5: Zoo
Game 1: T1 belcher + LED (Land Grant, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Desperate Ritual, Belcher, LED). Didn’t even see his deck. Win
Game 2: He lands Canonist and Suppression Field. I destroy both via Hull Breach but it was too late. Lose
Game 3: ETW for 16 on turn 1. W
After Rd.5: 5-0
Rd. 6 and 7: ID; ID
Top 8
Quarterfinals: Ad Nauseum Tendrils (ANT)
Game 1: Win die roll and play first casting 16 tokens via 3 Rite of Flames. He storm counts which got me worried. Nothing happened apparently. Win
Game 2: He plays first and Duress(es) my Chrome Mox but I had a Wish in my hand. I managed to ETW for 14. He plays Brainstorm and Ponder. We managed to get into turn 4 as he Chants with Kicker. On my turn I play Belcher and activate, he was down to 6 so the chances that the Goblin Charbelcher will go through is very very high and it did. W
Semis: Prize split
It was a good day overall. It was my first time to play the deck in a big event. Many thanks to my teammates and to my girlfriend who brought me some food and meds since I was not feeling well at that time. The Top 8 (in no particular order) was:
ANT – 3
Zoo
MonoU Merfolk
Rock
White Weenie
Belcher (Me)
Good showing!! That's almost the exact list that I run. I love the War Strike in the board! Well done. Any thoughts about what you'd change board wise? I like 4 Xantid and 3 Guttural, did you find it hard to get Xantid whan you needed it?
I took a top 4 split out of 40 yesterday.
//Maindeck
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Stomping Ground (Loaned my Taigas out)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tinder Wall
//Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Guttural Response
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
I decided against monolith mostly because I traded them away, but Pyretic was fine all day.
R1 v. Junk: G1: He seizes my belcher after I lose the die roll. I rip one two turns later and win the game on turn 4
Boarding: -1 Seething Song, +1 Infernal tutor (It's nice to have another win-con MD vs. discard.)
G2: He mulls to 4, I make 10 Goblins, and that's that.
R2 v. Vampires: G1: I mull to 6. I see two win conditions and keep, and he makes a mistake, Thoughtseizing me for the belcher instead of the Lotus Petal which was my only initial red source. I warrens for 10, and his hexmages and depths are a turn too slow.
Boarding: +1 Infernal tutor, -1 Seething Song
G2: He mulls to 5 and doesn't get anything going.
R3. The guy playing Ur with Moons, Jaces, Trinketmage->explosives/Pneedle, forces, snares, and pierces doesn't want to mull to Force, so we I.D. +EV man, +EV.
R4 v. Lands G1. I slowroll for 3 turns till I can 1-shot him with Belcher.
No Boarding,
G2. He leads with Forest/exploration/thicket, and I decide to show him my moves and instead of safely ETWing for 14 and possibly losing to chasm/tabernacle/EE, I decided to show him my moves and diminishing returns with RRG floating. Sure enough, I turn up Belcher/LED for the t1.
R5 v. Necrotic Ooze combo. I lose the 4th roll on the day. He mulls to 4 looking for lands/force, after shipping a 7 with thoughtseize/brainstorm/land. It wouldn't have mattered: my hand was stacked, with ETW, Land grant, Petal, Petal, ESG, Tinder Wall, Seething Song, and belcher on the topdeck, so I beat everything but Force/Thoughtseize.
Boarding: -4 Seething Song, -4 Pyretic Ritual, +4 Xantid Swarm, +4 Guttural Response.
I keep a 7 that belches (SSG, SSG, Manamorphose, Desperate Ritual, Chrome Mox, Belcher, Petal), since I know I'm probably getting seized on turn 1. He does, and takes belcher. I draw rite of flame and pass. He Brainstorms, fetches, and seizes again-taking manamorphose. I draw guttural and pass. He casts personal tutor for buried alive. I need to draw livelivelive to win this. Sho-nuff, I rip Belcher. Petal, rite, ritual, Mox imprint guide, Belcher. "Force?" "Guttural Response pitching SSG."
Nice. Life. He buries, and now it's a race of reanimation versus mana--which I win.
R6. ID
Quarterfinals versus monoblack aggro-control--kind of like "the gate" but with Port, Ritual and Sinkhole. Also, no Hymn (Only thing I disliked?)
G1: I know he's basically cold to goblins, so when I win the die roll, I ETW for 8 and that's all she wrote.
Boarding: -1 Song, +1 IT
G2: I keep a 3-wincon (1 of each), 4 mana hand, knowing that I can probably beat a thoughtseize. He blind Therapies and hits desperate ritual. I rip a mana source, correctly read him for an answer to Goblins ( I knew he had ratchet bomb) and play a belcher sans mana. I keep drawing win conditions and do not get there before dying.
Boarding: +1 Song, -1 IT
G3: Mox Remove SSG, rite, ritual, song, belcher, LED activate, deal 34. Yahtzee!
Thanks! Im thinking of the 4th Swarm actually. My problem is that I only have 3 Swarms. I used to have IGG on the boards but since I rarely have the chance to make it work, I just replaced it with Hull Breach. As for the Xantid, when the Slivers match came, 2 are immediately in my opening 7 + a Land Grant. So I risked the Grant and cast it and cast Xantid, which eventually resolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
I gotcha, makes sense. I think the four Xantids are ideal on the other handif you can draw like that just run two:) I have a Hull Breach inmy board as well, I don't own shattering sprees which I will cut teh breach for when I get them. Anyway, good day, those are just hair splitting differences, glad to see the list come out and perform well!
To Ozymandias:
Good results at the tourney! I like the list, that seems to be the current standard for the archetype, and I like it. You can totally run the life loss duals in this list, if we ever develop a legacy budget forum Belcher would have to be on it. Surviving the die roll can be huge with this deck and you managed that all day:) Well done! Thanks for posting your sb choices, I think this deck sideboards poorly as it is so tight and front seven dependent, but i am starting to agree with you that Seething is one of the first cards out. Anyway, good job!!
I might get 1-3 pyroblasts into the board, cutting swarms and responses--just to diverisfy my counter-hate, make swords less effective, stuff like that. Obviously replacing Grounds with Taiga.
I wonder if this deck has the juice to go to SCG and win 6 or 7 of 8 rounds. Given how roundly it stomps anything without a force in the opening 7, it might.
Congratz!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_JKidd
Some questions:
1- Do you consider Xantid swarm the best card in your side?
2- Do you side it in together with guttural response?
3- Which is the key beetwen running pyroblast or guttural? Just the R/G cost?
Hi Guys
Good job on the recent finishes.
Im building belcher and I know for the most part how the deck works. What I dont get is how you guys sideboard. Could you guys explan this to me please.
Basically, you take out the worst rituals, if your opponent has counters or chant. Song makes 2 mana, but it requires three to play, practically screaming "Blow me out." Pyretic has similar blowout issues, and is strictly worse than Desperate ritual. Then, you bring in all of your counter-hate (basically everything that isn't a singleton.)
Postboard, you want to play out the bare minimum of cards, but try to have mana open for a disruptor.
Best card (in the blue match up because the best card, best per se, is ETW) on the side is Xantid Swarm because its like a Duress in which it begs to be countered. I also side it in with Guttural taking out 2 Pyretics, 2 Songs, 1 LED, 1 Manamorphose and 1 Desperate. The third question, because of the R/G cost maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Well im not yet well versed with regards to the deck as I used to play Zoo before. I dont want to claim that these assumptions are the BEST but these are what I felt were correct based on playtesting, and hours reading Beclcher stuff on the net.
Congrats btw to Ozzy!
I agree with you for the most part, but I can't side out a LED, it drives 4 Belchers and 4 Wishes. I will cut one Land Grant or 1 Chrome Mox first. I typically bring in 7 cards vs control 4 swarm and 3 guttural and I cut 2 seething, 1 grant, 1 chrome,1 desperate, and then struggle with the last two slots:) To Ozy, I don't want to sound like a hater, but I have my doubts about this deck going 6 or 7 in a major, we die to splash aimed at Goblins(plague) and stupid needle. It's hard to find a list that can't side 2-6 against us, on the other hand in this post survival meta, who knows, but I'm leery of this deck going that far. Don't get me wrong I like it, its hella fun to play, but one ofthe ant/tes lists is probably the better long haul combo for now, in my opinion anyway.
Well, the GenCon Belcher almost won it all. This deck is kinda under the radar I think, and I managed to put up a good result just in time before Goblin (Plague) and Merfolk (Needle is to Vial) hate cards increase in proportion. Well I think it depends on the meta youre playing when you choose to play the deck. Again, im not an expert at the deck but I do have common sense. When your meta is Gobs, Merfolk, CBTop or any black variants, I think the deck will somehow struggle to put up a decent result because of the presence of SBs against these decks mainly Needle, Plague, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
But if its more of Zoo and a bit of Gobs, Merfolk then it might put up a fight.
This is true, and if its a big enough tourney you'll see all of it, so what the hell, if you like the list and it feels good I'd say go with it. No deck is free of bad match ups, and belcher can sometimes just play solitaire anyway:)
Very well said with regards to the solitaire! Heck, ive even had more hours playing with myself than actual playtesting with my team mates!Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
Anyway, ive just wanted to ask for some response if this play is a right play:
Situation
1. Preboard on the play. You assume that your opponent is not blue and has no hand disruption.
2. Hand: Lotus Petal, Tinder Wall, Pyretic Ritual, ESG, Seething Song, Belcher, SSG
3. Remove ESG for Wall, then sac it for Pyretic and cast Seething Song then Belcher while you still have Petal and ESG in your hand.
4. The question: Is this a logical play? Is it logical to land Belcher and not activate it (because you only have the SSG and the Lotus left which will only produce 2) and just hope to top-deck an additional ritual which will get you to 3 which would then activate the Belcher?