[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

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Originally Posted by Deep6er

Couple of things here. One, I believe you're overemphasizing Iggy Pop's Top8's. I know that Bomholt won the first Meandeck Open with it, but I haven't really seen it pop up anywhere else.

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2006 Legacy Championship
Indianapolis, Indiana
August 11, 2006
Coverage (including Top 8 decklists)

Top 8:
1. UG Madness
2. Salvagers-Gamekeeper
3. Vial Goblins with green splash
4. UWBG Landstill
5. Iggy Pop
6. Iggy Pop
7. Truffle Shuffle
8. UGRW Threshold

StarCityGames Duel for Duals IV
Roanoke, Virginia
October 8, 2006 Day 2
All decklists

Top 8:
1. Vial Goblins
2. Vial Goblins with white splash
3. Affinity
4. Iggy Pop
5. Miracle Gro
6. 43 Land
7. Vial Goblins with white splash
8. RGBSA

Aside from the 3 Iggy spots Im seeing a lack of Solidarity here. It might be a very valid arguement that Solidarity's success is still dependant on not making play mistakes. A bad reason to play a deck all day at a GP if you ask me. I mean, look how terribly beatable all the decks in that top eight are for Solidarity, yet its no where amoungst them.

If you check our Historical Top 8 reference page, you'll notice in Germany Übermadness won three times as many top 8 spots than Solidarity in 06 and 07. Im not bragging, but does this just mean people in Germany cant find Resets? Solidarity is discouraging for many players, decks like Iggy aren't. This is what differentiates Iggy and Solidarity the most if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Deep6er

Without leyline, I can hijack your IGG and combo out on top of you, and God forbid I have Twincast! If I have Twincast, Tide, Reset in my hand with an IGG on the stack, that's infinite mana. Then, ANY SINGLE DRAW SPELL is my entire deck. Seriously, I think your fears may be a tad exaggerated, and not terribly on the mark. If I've missed something feel free to tell me, but it does seem to me that you're analyzing this from a completely different viewpoint that may not have all of the relevant data.

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No one with half a brain would cast Ill Gotten Gains against Solidarity with no protection. Have you ever even played against a reliable opponent?

A) They have Leyline out, you dont counter IGG and lose. They can mind twist you turn 2 and if its on the play you better have the FoW. This is quite a power play against you.

B) They play Defense Grid. We already know how this card hampers your ability to play counter magic, let alone go off with your own combo.

C) They have Xantid Swarm. Another card you NEED the FoW for. If this card is out your in a pretty bad situation because you'll need to combo off regardless to theyre hand and ability to combo. Just out of fear that they will. Thats huge.

D) They have Orims Chant. This ones a pain in the ass because they can easily Mystic Tutor for it! Chant you, it resolves, they win. Or chant you, you waste your counterspell, and they play IGG. Theres always the possibility of crushing you mid combo with Chant as well.

E) Brainfreeze. Ive seen people trying this against Solidarity with a bit of success. Again its a Mystic Tutor target, and can actually kill you in response to your own Brainstorm. Evil.

F) Force of Will. Some builds are squeezing these in, which means relying on yours to counter IGG isnt sure fire.

Have you tested against each of these combatives? IGG is a pretty extensive deck that I have the overwhelming notion you underestimate.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

If you check our Historical Top 8 reference page, you'll notice in Germany Übermadness won three times as many top 8 spots than Solidarity in 06 and 07. Im not bragging, but does this just mean people in Germany cant find Resets? Solidarity is discouraging for many players, decks like Iggy aren't. This is what differentiates Iggy and Solidarity the most if you ask me.

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You can't cite German tournaments without concluding that Landstill is tier 1. This isn't meant as a slight to Germany, but comparing vastly different meta-games is useless.

Actually, it DOES mean people in Germany can't find Resets. That's why all over Europe, you see the success of Landstill, Burn, Aluren, Ghostway, and Life from the Loam decks, in what tournament reports are actually being posted(kudos to the Germans, btw, for regularly supplying their t8s).

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Aside from the 3 Iggy spots Im seeing a lack of Solidarity here. It might be a very valid arguement that Solidarity's success is still dependant on not making play mistakes. A bad reason to play a deck all day at a GP if you ask me. I mean, look how terribly beatable all the decks in that top eight are for Solidarity, yet its no where amoungst them.

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At the Day 1 Roanoke;

1.Goblins
2.UGW Thresh
3.UGW Thresh
4.Solidarity
5.MUC
6.BW Confidant
7.Goblins
8.UBWG Landstill
9.Goblins
10.BR Sui
11.Solidarity
12.Solidarity
13.UGW Thresh
14.Goblins
15.Solidarity
16.Goblins

Siting one or two random tournaments and trying to draw larger conclusions from those tournaments is not credible. Thus far, Iggy Pop's success has been marginal, signifigantly less than that of Solidarity. It's not truly possible to gauge whether one is superior to the other with the limited information we have, and given that Iggy is still somewhat new on the larger tournament scene. A deck's absence or presence in an isolated t8 is not a good criteria for judging a deck's overall strength in the format or the meta-game. This is the same ill-founded logic that led Meandeck to declare Landstill would never t8 again, and Orlove Reanimator was the new hotness, after a single 40 man tournament.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

...They can mind twist you turn 2 and if its on the play you better have the FoW...

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Mind Twist is banned in Legacy, right, or is this slang for something else?

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

No one with half a brain would cast Ill Gotten Gains against Solidarity with no protection. Have you ever even played against a reliable opponent?

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And Gearhart was pointing out why Iggy Pop can't cast IGG without protection. Something that Iggy Pop generally doesn't have to worry about against other decks. This puts a strain on Iggy Pop and slows it down.

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A) They have Leyline out, you dont counter IGG and lose. They can mind twist you turn 2 and if its on the play you better have the FoW. This is quite a power play against you.

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That is a strong play but not necessarily game as Iggy Pop usually has to sacrifice a signifant amount of resources just to resolve an early IGG against Solidarity.

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B) They play Defense Grid. We already know how this card hampers your ability to play counter magic, let alone go off with your own combo.

C) They have Xantid Swarm. Another card you NEED the FoW for. If this card is out your in a pretty bad situation because you'll need to combo off regardless to theyre hand and ability to combo. Just out of fear that they will. Thats huge.

D) They have Orims Chant. This ones a pain in the ass because they can easily Mystic Tutor for it! Chant you, it resolves, they win. Or chant you, you waste your counterspell, and they play IGG. Theres always the possibility of crushing you mid combo with Chant as well.

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By having these as separate points you make it sound a lot worse for Solidarity than it actually is. Iggy Pop can only afford to run one of these hate cards at a time, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
Some of the weaknesses
Defense grid is expensive and doesn't stop Solidarity from comboing in its own turn.
Xantid Swarm also doesn't interfere with the combo, is required early, and can be bounced.
Orim's Chant cost mana in the turn you are going off which strains resources and is owned by Twincast.
Obviously, they also have strengths and are good tools against Solidarity but I won't bother pointing those out here.

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E) Brainfreeze. Ive seen people trying this against Solidarity with a bit of success. Again its a Mystic Tutor target, and can actually kill you in response to your own Brainstorm. Evil.

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Brainfreeze against Solidarity? That is a horrible solution. Solidarity owns the stack and will just respond on top of the Brainfreezes.

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F) Force of Will. Some builds are squeezing these in, which means relying on yours to counter IGG isnt sure fire.

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I don't believe Iggy Pop has enough blue cards to make this a reliable solution. Nor does forcing IGG through in this manner unless Iggy Pop is fully comboing going to yield much card advantage.

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Mind Twist is banned in Legacy, right, or is this slang for something else?

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He was referring to casting Ill gotten gains with a Leyline out which makes your opponent discard their hand while you get to keep 3 cards from your graveyard.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

2006 Legacy Championship
Indianapolis, Indiana
August 11, 2006
Coverage (including Top 8 decklists)

Top 8:
1. UG Madness
2. Salvagers-Gamekeeper
3. Vial Goblins with green splash
4. UWBG Landstill
5. Iggy Pop
6. Iggy Pop
7. Truffle Shuffle
8. UGRW Threshold

StarCityGames Duel for Duals IV
Roanoke, Virginia
October 8, 2006 Day 2
All decklists

Top 8:
1. Vial Goblins
2. Vial Goblins with white splash
3. Affinity
4. Iggy Pop
5. Miracle Gro
6. 43 Land
7. Vial Goblins with white splash
8. RGBSA

Aside from the 3 Iggy spots Im seeing a lack of Solidarity here. It might be a very valid arguement that Solidarity's success is still dependant on not making play mistakes. A bad reason to play a deck all day at a GP if you ask me. I mean, look how terribly beatable all the decks in that top eight are for Solidarity, yet its no where amoungst them.

If you check our Historical Top 8 reference page, you'll notice in Germany Übermadness won three times as many top 8 spots than Solidarity in 06 and 07. Im not bragging, but does this just mean people in Germany cant find Resets? Solidarity is discouraging for many players, decks like Iggy aren't. This is what differentiates Iggy and Solidarity the most if you ask me.



No one with half a brain would cast Ill Gotten Gains against Solidarity with no protection. Have you ever even played against a reliable opponent?

A) They have Leyline out, you dont counter IGG and lose. They can mind twist you turn 2 and if its on the play you better have the FoW. This is quite a power play against you.

B) They play Defense Grid. We already know how this card hampers your ability to play counter magic, let alone go off with your own combo.

C) They have Xantid Swarm. Another card you NEED the FoW for. If this card is out your in a pretty bad situation because you'll need to combo off regardless to theyre hand and ability to combo. Just out of fear that they will. Thats huge.

D) They have Orims Chant. This ones a pain in the ass because they can easily Mystic Tutor for it! Chant you, it resolves, they win. Or chant you, you waste your counterspell, and they play IGG. Theres always the possibility of crushing you mid combo with Chant as well.

E) Brainfreeze. Ive seen people trying this against Solidarity with a bit of success. Again its a Mystic Tutor target, and can actually kill you in response to your own Brainstorm. Evil.

F) Force of Will. Some builds are squeezing these in, which means relying on yours to counter IGG isnt sure fire.

Have you tested against each of these combatives? IGG is a pretty extensive deck that I have the overwhelming notion you underestimate.

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Actually, I have. You do realize that if they Chant/IGG, and I Force, they have to wait? The longer they wait, the more dire their situation becomes. Also, you do realize that brain freeze vs. mystical tutor is not a fair fight? That's Force's five and six that don't actually cost me an extra card. Post board Chants are not as threatening as you think. If I lose to Chant game one, you can be sure as hell that I'll board in Twincast game 2. Brain Freeze me? Seriously? Thanks for turning on Flash of Insight. Force of Will isn't going to be that big a deal either. A single Force doesn't hurt Solidarity as much as it hurts Iggy Pop. Sure, Xantid Swarm is good, but they have to find it before it's irrelevant. Turn four Swarm is not going to be terribly threatening, and if they mulligan aggressively for it, who's to say they can combo if it hits me? Also, with the Force and Chant arguments, you say they'll play IGG after I deal with it. Is that considered not walking into it with protection? Because I can sure as hell STILL hijack it and combo off myself. Defense Grid might not be bad, but I can still leave three mana open and be able to force their spell. End result, bad times for them.

Hello. First time poster here, but I've been playing this deck for quite awhile and really enjoy it.

Quick question though. I like the idea of using twincast to hijack an IGG and go infinite. However, wouldn't you need 2 copies of twincast in order to do this?

From the comprehensive rules:

401.7. As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell’s resolution, the card is put into its owner’s graveyard.

As far as I know, when twincasting an opponent's IGG, you would first discard, then pick up 3 cards, then put twincast into the yard. Am I off base here?

As a side note: I don't wish to hijack the thread, but if anyone knows of ANY PLACE in so cal where regular Legacy tournaments are held I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd PM me.

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Originally Posted by 74o_Clownsuit

Hello. First time poster here, but I've been playing this deck for quite awhile and really enjoy it.

Quick question though. I like the idea of using twincast to hijack an IGG and go infinite. However, wouldn't you need 2 copies of twincast in order to do this?

From the comprehensive rules:

401.7. As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell’s resolution, the card is put into its owner’s graveyard.

As far as I know, when twincasting an opponent's IGG, you would first discard, then pick up 3 cards, then put twincast into the yard. Am I off base here?

As a side note: I don't wish to hijack the thread, but if anyone knows of ANY PLACE in so cal where regular Legacy tournaments are held I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd PM me.

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When Twincast resolves, it puts a copy of IGG on the stack. Twincast itself does not become an IGG.

The important thing with Twincast is that it creates a copy of the spell unlike the way Fork was played for some time it does not become the copy itself. So the Twincast is in the graveyard before you even start resolving your IGG copy.
edit: too slow :(

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Originally Posted by URABAHN

When Twincast resolves, it puts a copy of IGG on the stack. Twincast itself does not become an IGG.

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Ohhhhhhh ok that makes more sense. Thank you very much :)

In other news, I'm becoming a big fan of TES. Anyone have a good idea of how to board against this deck? I'm guessing maybe a bounce spell or two to handle xantid swarm or maybe some more twincasts to hijack the IGG.

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Originally Posted by 74o_Clownsuit

In other news, I'm becoming a big fan of TES. Anyone have a good idea of how to board against this deck? I'm guessing maybe a bounce spell or two to handle xantid swarm or maybe some more twincasts to hijack the IGG.

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I tested some dozens games vs wastedlife and my sideboard went something like:
-3 remand +3 twincast

That was when he had Defense Grids in side and twincast helped greatly in going off in you own turn.
When he went for the 4 MD xantid my plan became:
-3 wish -1 remand +3 twincast +1 meditate

Wish was bad in this matchup (i don't have Etruth in side).

I probably sided wrong in that matchup, so I'd like deep6er to explain his strategy.
However, matchup went something like 50-50, really dependant on his draw and my FoWs.

Wish might not be the right thing to board out if you're shifting your plan to go off during your own turn. It fetches Turnabout, which you need. At the very least, the 4th Turnabout should have been boarded in if you boarded out the wishes.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Wish might not be the right thing to board out if you're shifting your plan to go off during your own turn. It fetches Turnabout, which you need. At the very least, the 4th Turnabout should have been boarded in if you boarded out the wishes.

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yeah, i forgot, it's -1 remand more and +1 turnabout

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Originally Posted by legacyplayer0

Dave Gearhart for playing Think Twice in Solidarity.

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I am very curious about this little innovation. How did this work out for you? Which slots did you replace it with? Were there any other changes to the 'classical' build?

I'm not sure what to think of it. I myself have sometimes had the problem of not having enough card advantage when comboing ant not getting enough of spells to countering the sometimes abysmal meditate of three lands and something just not good enough. On the other hand I can only think of opt to replace with Think Twice, and I think it's more important to have carddraw at one mana then card advantage.

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Originally Posted by Reagens

I am very curious about this little innovation. How did this work out for you? Which slots did you replace it with? How did it work out for you? Were there any other changes to the 'classical' build?

I'm not sure what to think of it. I myself have sometimes had the problem of not having enough card advantage when comboing ant not getting enough of spells to countering the sometimes abysmal meditate of three lands and something just not good enough. On the other hand I can only think of opt to replace with Think Twice, and I think it's more important to have carddraw at one mana then card advantage.

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I have a bit of a confession to make. I've had a different build of Solidarity for awhile now, but held it so that I could spring it at the GAGG. It was a bad choice at the GAGG because the field was vastly different then I expected, but I'll have the list and descriptions of changes and why on Wednesday (possibly later today if I can get some extra time). So, be patient, and it will come soon.


@Green One: That board plan is no good. When I put up the new list, I'll tell you what I board.

I don't know how many people were playing it, but one of my teammates reported that some people were splashing Red for Urza's Rage-> Twincast.

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

I don't know how many people were playing it, but one of my teammates reported that some people were splashing Red for Urza's Rage-> Twincast.

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This is true information. Rack and Ruin also took the place of Rebuild I believe, and Sudden shock was also in the board to deal with Meddling Mage. I'm not sure of the exact list though, but I am eager to see it when it comes up.

1) You guys are dickheads. I SAID that I would post the information later.

2) That generates unnecessary confusion as people who are curious WHY I changed things will be left without an answer.

3) That's my fucking thunder. Give it the hell back.

Anyway, since I'm an awesome guy, I'll overlook these insults and post the list and changes now.

-2 Peek
-1 Twincast
+3 Think Twice

Think Twice is amazing. Card advantage allows you to recover from mulliganing and Forces. Also, it being amazing against discard is relevant as well. Peek and Twincast, as amazing as they are, proved to be the best things to cut. In Peek's instance, information was replaced with Card Advantage to allow you to FIGHT their hand instead of mind tricking them out. In Twincast's instance, as randomly amazing as Twincast is, true Card Advantage will allow you to find the tricks the deck has access to more reliably.

-2 Island
+2 Volcanic Island

Volcanic Island taps for Red and Blue mana. Necessary for casting Red spells and is still fetchable. There are no Red cards in the maindeck. It's purely for sideboard purposes. Please do NOT recommend Fire/Ice. The deck you would want the card against would force you to fetch the Volcanic, then promptly waste it. Not worth it.

Sideboard
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 RACK AND RUIN
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 URZA'S RAGE
1 SUDDEN SHOCK
1 STARSTORM
3 Hydroblast
3 Twincast

Rack and Ruin vs. Rebuild: Rebuild was there for the rare occasion where there was more than one artifact that you wanted to get rid of. Rack and Ruin destroying those artifacts is going to be better. Destroying things buys you more time than just bouncing them.

Urza's Rage/Sudden Shock: uncounterable methods of killing Meddling Mage will do two things. First, you have access to whatever card the Mage was blocking (presumably Tide) which will allow you to use ALL the tricks when you go off allowing you to fight the Counters more reliably than if you tried to Pongify it or something. Since they are Uncounterable, it frees up the ability to gain control of the stack again where Counters are less of a threat. Second, KILLING Mage is another method of buying time.

Starstorm: Very useful because of it's ability to 'dial up' and create situations where you have multiple for ones. Let me emphasize that this card is NOT FOR GOBLINS. Do not play or fetch Volcanics against Goblins. They will Wasteland them and you will not have accomplished enough because a single 'Wrath' does not buy enough time if it comes at the expense of a land drop and untap effect.

Those are the changes. What this has effectively done is given us a MUCH better game against Threshold and decks of that ilk, while forfeiting some points against Goblins. The Goblin match is now 50/50 instead of the 60/40 it was before. However, I think that these new options definitely set the Threshold matchup to almost 50/50.

@Green One: If you play against TES with the new build, you board, -1 Turnabout, -1 Meditate, for +1 Chain of Vapor, and +1 Starstorm. That way, you can still wish for Echoing Truth. Now, I know that you have questions and all, but trust me, this list is sound. While you don't HAVE to play this build, I would recommend for metagames that have heavy amounts of Aggro/Control decks.

Deep6er - Since you're splashing red, why not REB/Pyroblast? Mage removal or anti-countermagic for one mana.

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Originally Posted by jamest

Deep6er - Since you're splashing red, why not REB/Pyroblast? Mage removal or anti-countermagic for one mana.

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He did list all his removal as uncounterable, so that's my best guess, although it seems like those would be decent for the mirror if not more...

I did that to force you to do it today, not wednsday, and it also prevents people from speculating like mad.