[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

It's a good Cunning Wish target.

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Ex. A

SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow

If you'll notice I split it 1-1-1 with hydro and BEB. So far testing hasn't made any spectacular differences, but with the loss of the third beb I would like to add a second ajani, Im thinking about dropping the 4th relic or 2nd runed halo from the board and replacing it with ajani.

@Citrus-God,
I've been testing out your 4c build with CB out of the side posted a few pages back. On paper it really looks like a house. Have you experienced any mana base issues, and along those same lines, are the 4 basics really worth risking color-screw now and then? Also, do you think squeezing in 1-2 Vindicates would put too much strain on an already shaky mana base, or are they just not needed when you have Deed? Lastly, have you thought about Monestary in place of 1 Factory? I've been testing your list with the following changes (which may or may not be good):

-1 Brainstorm
-1 Decree of Justice (because I only own 2, I know this is probably wrong)
-1 Mishra's Factory
-2 Island
-2 Plains

+2 Vindicate
+1 Nantuko Monestary
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 Underground Sea/Polluted Delta
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Tundra

I'm hesitant about the Vindicates because they lose some power without Wasteland. Everything else I'm pretty comfortable with, but I haven't tested against potent non-basic hate (Dragon Stompy, MUC, Thrash/TA to a lesser extent). How much will basic Island/Plains help in these matchups?

Just some words of warning for my fellow Landstill players, be prepared to deal with Natural Order for Progenitus at the GP. I have some rough drafts of this deck and they are all really hard to beat. This could easily be a spoiler deck at the GP.

I probably wouldn't really worry about that crapper of a deck too much. I definitely agree that random morons will show up with it, but I don't see it as a real threat that is gonna make me change even 1 SB slot.
Wrath of God definitely kills Progenitals, as does Nevinyrral's Disk, Innocent Blood, any kind of Edict, and simply counterspells should keep his fat ass off the table if you don't have your sweeper or Edict ready. If you are playing none of these cards for some reason, then I would recommend making some changes to your build, but for everyone else, I wouldn't get worked up over yet another hyped up abortion of a deck.

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Originally Posted by konsultant

Just some words of warning for my fellow Landstill players, be prepared to deal with Natural Order for Progenitus at the GP. I have some rough drafts of this deck and they are all really hard to beat. This could easily be a spoiler deck at the GP.

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Lots of discard with survival.dec back up and natural order to boot? I guess I have another deck to test for the GP. ugh.

Edit: I just realized you can runed halo naming progenitus or mage naming natural order. It can definitely can something that might catch us off guard and steal a game, but I think I'll make the necessary notes and keep it in the back of the head.

Yeah, I think that was a joke. Of all the decks in this format, Landstill has the most answers to Natural Order for Progenitus:

• Counterspell/Force the Natural Order
• Wrath or Humility after the Natural Order resolves
• Runed Halo (on Progenitus) and/or Meddling Mage (on Natural Order) post board

^ Right.

I've been doing lots of testing against progenitus decks (loam, thresh, survival). Does it win? Yes, sometimes. But so far, the natural order combo weakens the decks vs landstill. The inherent card disadvantage and weakness to countermagic and WoG makes it pretty much suck.

Well, I figured I should at least cover all my bases. I'll be honest I'm getting sick of play testing and just need the gp to be tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Yeah, I think that was a joke. Of all the decks in this format, Landstill has the most answers to Natural Order for Progenitus:

• Counterspell/Force the Natural Order
• Wrath or Humility after the Natural Order resolves
• Runed Halo (on Progenitus) and/or Meddling Mage (on Natural Order) post board

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In addition, proactively "countering" Natural Order by keeping the mana guys off the table with Swords and EE works well.

I totally agree Landstill has the best game against the deck in the entire format. Here is my point, there isn't a standard list or idea for this deck yet. You aren't going to have the advantage of knowing what your opponent may or may not be playing unlike the rest of the decks in Legacy. Anybody playing this combo is going to have a strategy for control and you aren't going to know for certain what it is until you see it. This is similar to Flash, everybody knows there is a combo but nobody knows what the best shell of it is yet. In 2 days of testing and rough drafts I have already thrown a list together that consistently beats everything in legacy other than Landstill and is par with the faster combo, Tendrils and Ichorid. Just be wary you never know what crap they are running in these decks and not walking into anything is going to be the key to winning these match's. I'd reccomend running a Perish or 2 in the SB just to seal up this match. Perish is still entirely relevent against a number of other decks in legacy and is an easy replacement for the Edict's in the SB of my list.

I agree with konsultant's general point, have no opinion on Progenitus beating everything but Landstill (because I haven't tried it yet), and disagree that Landstill players should board Perish since Retribution of the Meek is slightly better (lose: killing Elves and Mongeese; gain: killing Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Crushers, Affinity guys, and all sorts of less common dudes, while being in your main colours).

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

I agree with konsultant's general point, have no opinion on Progenitus beating everything but Landstill (because I haven't tried it yet), and disagree that Landstill players should board Perish since Retribution of the Meek is slightly better (lose: killing Elves and Mongeese; gain: killing Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Crushers, Affinity guys, and all sorts of less common dudes, while being in your main colours).

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Perish kills and gets around Teeg.

bleh.

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Originally Posted by Viscosity

First turn stifling a fetch land is still the best play for a landstill deck.

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nope

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

nope

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I lol'd

There really is no optimal first turn play for landstill, you kind of give up an amazingly optimal first turn to have, arguably, the best late game of any deck in the format:

1. You can lay EE for 0 or 1 to deter stuff you know you don't want to see on their turn 1.
2. You can swords something.
3. Keep mana for snare.
4. Keep mana for brainstorm to fend off discard
5. Ponder if you are running it, some do, most don't.

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

nope

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well obviously, that is my opinion. And yours is yours. Personally, I like a one mana instant sink hole before they can tap for mana... So if sinkhole cost one blue, and said "you play play this spell on a land as it comes into play". Destroy that land and the land's owner loses one life. Do you think there would be a deck that didn't play four?

The tempo gain is ridiculous and the deck makes up for it with follow-up card draw.

For example. Last night I play a fetch + mox first turn. He plays fetch, he attempts to fetch, I stifle. Then I take my turn, I play a wasteland and and standstill.

So I have 3 mana, a standstill, a waste. And he has Nothing in play.. seems preeeeeeeeeeetty good. Plus crucible in my hand. Game was over before it started.

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Originally Posted by rockout

I lol'd

1. You can lay EE for 0 or 1 to deter stuff you know you don't want to see on their turn 1.
2. You can swords something.
3. Keep mana for snare.
4. Keep mana for brainstorm to fend off discard
5. Ponder if you are running it, some do, most don't.

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EE for one is great. And I often play it.

If you are on the play and they play a fetch land. Stifle is better than all of your options. You don't need swords, or EE, or snare if they don't have mana to play a spell. Then on the following turn, you are dropping a 2nd land to their none...

Obviously the deck is reactionary, you have one mana and wait to see what they do. If they happen to walk a fetchland into your stifle, then that is what you should do. STIFLE it.

Landstill has a great late/mid game. An early stifle is basically a tempo time-walk, getting you closer to late game. Getting you more land drops while your opponent is another turn behind.

I guess I'm going to have to stop posting on this forum... And just keep winning magic tournaments with my sub-optimal decks and strategies..

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Originally Posted by Viscosity

The tempo gain is ridiculous and the deck makes up for it with follow-up card draw.

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There is no reason to gain early tempo in Landstill. This is not tempo thresh or Team America, we can't take advantage of this early tempo, unless we can then drop a standstill, avoiding a daze. But as soon as standstill comes down, and it doesn't break for (on average) 3 turns, don't you lose all the tempo you had? Is it worth playing a card that provides tempo we can't consistently take advantage of and then is basically dead the rest of the game? Isn't Spell Snare MUCH better in this slot? Or even more Counterspells? Or Top?

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Originally Posted by Genericcactus

There is no reason to gain early tempo in Landstill.

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I disagree strongly. Every deck should be interactive from turn one. Standard landstill decks lose because they play one land per turn and lose to decks that simply out tempo them

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Originally Posted by Genericcactus

This is not tempo thresh or Team America, we can't take advantage of this early tempo, unless we can then drop a standstill, avoiding a daze. But as soon as standstill comes down, and it doesn't break for (on average) 3 turns, don't you lose all the tempo you had?

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No. You are ahead on land drops, empowering the game breakers (FoF, Elspeth, Decree) Also, you were able to get the standstill in, free from counter and daze. If they wait three turns for you to drop more land, you are closer to winning.

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Originally Posted by Genericcactus

Is it worth playing a card that provides tempo we can't consistently take advantage of and then is basically dead the rest of the game? Isn't Spell Snare MUCH better in this slot? Or even more Counterspells? Or Top?

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Yes it is worth playing because it is not dead. In my particular list, I've experimented with more tops. It isn't as good. I'm generally using all mana available to recur EEs, cast Decree, FoF, Etc. One top is great, 2 is totally dead. Much more so than stifle. Plus the blue card count is as low as it can be to power FoW. Spell snare is a viable option. But I don't like it as much. It actually ends up being dead more often than stifle. I stifle fetches, stifle ringleaders/matrons. Stifle Deed or EE. Stifle does get pitched to FoW of course. But just having the ability for the early Stifle/fetch makes it more powerful than spellsnare, IMO.

Playing the tempo game dramatically improves match-ups against thresh. I often "out tempo" tempo thresh decks. In fact, the game example above was thresh. The main point is that you stop your opponent from out tempo-ing YOU and shutting you out. By the time they play significant threats, you are in 4+ mana spells like WoG , FoF , elspeth, or big decrees.

You always assume that the best case will happen. Let´s for example say your opponent starts with Tropical->Ponder->Usea->Confidant/Survival/random cc2 Powerhouse.
In this case Snare is just the best answer you can have. Snare somehow gives you tempo too because it negates their turn 2. I can´t understand how one can EVER play Stifle>Snare in "our" current metagame.

I assume nothing. I play in two events per week (for the last 12 years) and playtest in between. My statements are from playing the game, not waxing philosophical on a board. :wink:

Spell snare is totally viable. It just has not performed as well as stifle in my standstill build. It might be better in other builds, I wouldn't know. I run 9 cards that remove bob/goyf, not including 6 counters (which I would likely not use on 2 drop creatures).