So i got lucky enough to get a foil Torment Lavamancer tonight. And a friend picked up one of the old DCI Lightning Bolts misprinted. It's hot as hell. My deck will be going in the pimp thread soon.
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So i got lucky enough to get a foil Torment Lavamancer tonight. And a friend picked up one of the old DCI Lightning Bolts misprinted. It's hot as hell. My deck will be going in the pimp thread soon.
I've tested this build for 2 weeks now against different a lot of decks and want some comments what do you think about it:
Creature:
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Instant:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery:
4 Chain Lightning
Planeswalker:
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Land:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
-> This build is so awesome. First I tested this deck without 3 Hierarch for 3 Lavamancer. But I didn't like it because Lavamancer isn't good with 12 Instant and 4 Sorcery spells and the idea with this deck is to have big threads and not to be aggressive. Hierarch is very good because he fix you to play KofR Turn 3 and has big synergie with Figure. I l ike the Elspeth because it can win alone. We want to pump normally maybe some jump blocker for tombstalker or something else but I like the pump ability. I think one is solid. HCanopy is good too in this build because you can draw a card and pump your knight and it is no problem to sac it with 3 Hierarch. The other choices seems normally. Any comments?
You apparently forgot that you can activate the abilities of planeswalker only at sorcery speed (i.e. during your own turn)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Svenyboy
I know?!?! And what do you want to say with that?
@Glorfindel
I think Svenyboy meant, chump Blocker, Not Jump blocker. He didn't say anything about instant speed.
How come recent lists run Noble Hierarch? Aren't the exalted from Pridemage and Lavamancers enough to Win the goyf wars?And most Sligh lists don't even run Goyf anymore.
Besides, aren't there better one drops than Hierarch??
Can we focus on the "new techs" of Zoo ?
Like the come back of figure of destiny (here for which match-ups ?), the decline of kird ape, the inclusion of the punishing/grove mini-combo, the inclusion of 1-of like Elspeth or the decline of Chain lightning (bad in the mirror) ...
We have a GP to prepare :).
Oh yeah, I mean chump blocker xD well Hierarch can help to cast a knight turn 2 and helps figure. Without Hierarch you have a worst Aggro Loam MU cause Wasteland + Life from the Loam kills you and Knight with Figure aren't good draws when you dont have 3 mana in play. In this situations noble hierarch helps. I tried Punishing Fire but I didnt like it. The reason why Punishing Fire Combo was good in Extended was that there was a lot of Faeries and fast decks but you see now that nobody plays this Combo more because 4 damage for 5 mana isnt good enough and is very slow in 1.5. But I like the way Zoo is developing cause now you dont have a stupid fast Burn/Creature Zoo what lost always against some War Monk actions. I want to start a discussion about this kind of Zoo:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29647
In my opinion I think the way where going with this deck is stupid. We're supposed to drop efficient creatures from the start, being Lynx, Kird Ape, Nacatl just to name a few. Tell how Noble Hierarch is going to help turn one being a 0/1 and eveything is cheap as hell in this deck already.
We play the best burn/removal already so for the Punishing Fire/ Burnwillow combo 1 we can't fetch for the Burnwillows. 2 If we cant draw the burnwillows, punishing fire is a bad burn spell by itself. 3 I dont think we want are opponents gaining life, thats why we play with path instead of swords.
As for the planeswalkers Im not going to say much Im willing to test a Elspeth or an Ajani.
If you think this is the ways we should be going with this deck explain why. Tell us match ups it going to help, Im not trying to be a dick. I would like to know for the future of this deck.
As I see it, Zoo has only has one big problem: Combo.
It destroys most aggro decks, and can often burst down a control player before they stabalize.
By running slower, more expensive threats you are diluting zoo's game plan of 'Kill them fast'.
This in turn hurts both the combo and control matchup's for the benifit of better aggro matches,
which you should allready do well in. Perhaps in an extremely aggro heavy meta this list would
do well, but such a meta is probably not a commonplace.
The midrange Zoo is better against a lot of U builds in the meta. With the fast Zoo you see rhox war monk, have no ptoe and say: scooop.
Canadian Thresh is better against fast Zoo because it has lightning bolt and sometimes a clique and the thresh player can handle your creatures. but a Knight or a big Figure is a problem for U players and thats the reason why this deck is going to be more midrange then fast.
Yeah, if you want to go all out you can play Goyf Sligh. Certainly, there is a middle ground on this continuum and you can tweak it to be somewhere in between. If we can get some consistency out of being a bit slower though, I'd say that's worth it.
I play the fast version of zoo. in my list I run 2 KoTR and 3 Figures. Besides the obvious 4 Tarmogoyfs with these 9 creatures I have no problem going into the mid/late game. The problem with are decks going more mid game, is that control will be a harder match for us because there gameplan is to stablize by then.
Excuse me if this has been mentioned before but what is your guys take on Loam Lion? Isn't this the white version of Kird Ape? Seems real good.
(1) Forum search for the win
(2) Lots of people are bearish on Kird Ape, so what are you gonna do with more of a mediocre card?
(3) "Seems real good." Why?
(In short: no, don't use it.)
Loam Lion is actually strictly better than kird ape. Well that might be an opinion but it offers two benefits over kird ape:
1) its not red; the fact that it doesnt get blue blasted is relevant.
2) given the direction modern zoo lists are going the fact that it costs W instead of R is beneficial. any time i dont open on Wild Nacatl that i lead on a fetch i fetch plateau so as far as having to fetch a different land T1 i don't see that argument at all. the bigger benefit is that basic plains is by far the best basic in your deck and with the inclusion of loam lion it gets even better. (this is because you have infinitely more red sources than white so wasteland on white source hurts alot more than wasteland on red source).
Im not saying we should all go run 4 of them as an auto include, but if you need 2 more one drops after your 4 WN 3 Figure 3 Lavamancer, well loam lion is probably your best bet.
We already got another one drop besides Nacatl:
Steppe Lynx! And it's far better, too. Besides, no good Control player blasts a Kird Ape.
Here's a list I'm gonna try on our next big tournament. In my opinion it is well balanced between consistent turn one drops, early burst damage and midgame threat density. Please comment!!
Main
4*Wooded Foothills
4*Windswept Heath
4*Arid Mesa
2*Plateau
2*Taiga
2*Savannah
2*Mountain
4*Wild Nacatl
4*Steppe Lynx
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Qasali Pridemage
2*Grim Lavamancer
2*Figure of Destiny
2*Knight of the Reliquary
4*Lightning Bolt
4*Path to Exile
4*Reckless Charge
2*Magma Jet
2*Sylvan Library
2*Fireblast
Board
2*Umezawa's Jitte
4*Pyrostatic Pillar
3*Krosan Grip
3*Pyroblast
3*Gaddock Teeg
I don't want to Play more than 2 Lavamancers, because of Goyf and Knight, but I don't want to Cut him either. He's awesome at removing blockers and winning the goyf wars.
P.S. Did anyone notice that Grim Lavamancer with Basilisk Collar say: {R},T:Destroy target creature.
Actually it would say "{R},T: Destroy target creature. Gain 2 life."
Also, why have you forsaken basic plains and forests? And why TWO basic mountains? In what circumstances would you want two?
I would be more inclined to advise a 1/1/1 on the basic lands and 1 less savanah, on my experiences at least...
I do agree with less lavamancers, especially with those reckless charges. It would no doubt be painful EVERYTIME that you would be forced to remove them to lavamancers.
Magma jet is an unusual choice since the difference between what you can kill at 3 toughness and 2 toughness is extremely relevant. Lightning Helix (to offset painlands and library) or even rift bolt (a much needed sorcery for goyf) seem like they would play a better role.
On your sideboard: Pyrostatic Pillar seems like a strange choice since your colors allow for a lot more self-friendly hate.
Question about the sideboard... 7 combo sideboard cards but no graveyard hate? Is there only storm combo deck in your meta or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AgOn
Basic Plains and Forest suck with Fireblast!! The 2 Mountains are just there to fill up my land count to 20, since 2 of each dual are enough. And I almost always fetch for the SAVANNAH on turn 1. Example: you got Nacatl, Reckless Charge and other stuff in hand. Turn 1 Nacatl, go. If you topdecked a Lynx next turn, you wouldn't benefit from the landfall ability, because you would have to fetch for white first, right? With Savannah you can play the Lynx on turn 2 with Savannah and fetch and Charge and smash for 10 in the red zone^^
Magma Jet isn't that unusual. With Reckless Charge and the tempo it brings, I'm always in topdeck mode by turn 5 max. Two Libraries aren't enough either and that's why I'd rather prefer putting two lands on the bottom of my deck than gaining 3 life..
Pyrostatic Pillar helped me a lot against ANT and creature light builds like Rock, Burn, Team America and so on. Allthough I run 4 Path, I think I'm gonna try Sulfuric Vortex in the Board, cause I can't stand Rhox and Kitchen Finks...
I might really cut the Lavamancers for 2 more Magma Jets.
Gaddock Teeg isn't primarily for Storm Combo, allthough it's good there, too. I mostly want it for the stupid Bant or No Bant or whatever they're called Decks and we got a couple of Mighty Quinn players here, too.
If you already play that tempo-orientated why do you not play Goblin Guide instead of Figure? I think Guide is superior to Figure, because he is almost always a shock. Why is that so? Because your opponents tend to attack you having an empty board. That's exactly when you want to have Guide to press your 2 points of damage through.
True, I like Goblin Guide, too. I even played with him for quite a time, but I really can't let my oponent draw a card each turn. With a meta full of Brainstorm, Ponder, Top etc. I really don't know if those 2 points of damage are worth it. Besides, He doesn't work well with Reckless Charge.
I don't know if I have enough one drops, but on the other hand I want to be more flexible under a Chalice at one.
Sry for double post.
at Dr. Agon:
I cant agree in one point. You said that Forest and Plains suck with Fireblast but you always fetch turn 1 Savannah. That sucks too when you have the 2 land hand and don't draw an other mountain for your blast.
Hmm, are you saying I should play a list without Savannahs? Or should I cut the Fireblasts?? That's totally rediculous.
I really don't want to play my Blast on turn two, so I don't see that much of a problem. And against the only MU where I might cast a turn two Fireblast - Combo - I wouldn't fetch a Savannah on turn One. And for the record: I don't always fetch a Savannah on my First turn. The most important thing about Zoo is that you gotta think ahead a bit, in order to do the most damage possible and not to fetch the wrong lands.
I don't think you should cut the 2 fireblast, they have always felt like the right number to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AgOn
Having more than 1 savannah just seems silly since you really never want 2 of them in play. Especially when you completely open the manabase in your deck up to nonbasic land hate such as back to basic, and blood moon, destructive flow, and others seemingly unnecessarily.
Not that it matters anyways. If you don't see ANY of that in your metagame, there is hardly a need for you to become unset in your ways. After all, we are only talking about ONE less "mountain" in your deck, and I doubt that lowers the precentages of having a turn 2 fireblast more than a couple points.
I still stand by the statement that a 1/1/1 split of basics with 1 savannah is the "optimal" mana base. That is all.
I've noticed some discussion in this thread regarding possible matchup problems with Progenitus decks. I wonder if anyone here has attempted using Retribution of the Meek as a sideboard answer?
For those not in the know:
Retribution of the Meek
2w
Sorcery
(Visions)
Destroy all creatures that have a power of 4 or greater. They cannot be regenerated.
Granted this could kill our goyfs and Knights, but we could play around that and it could be useful against other decks that pack major fatties (mirror, aggro-loam, etc).
Thoughts?
Well, I generally like the idea, because Progenitus really can be a difficult MU, but I'd rather board in Gaddock Teegs. Those are more efficient in other match ups, too.
Thinking of having 2 Stoneforge Mystics 1 jitte and a Baskelisk Collar in my board.
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitt
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Library.
I had the same idea for the main deck upping the lavamancers to 4. This way you machinegun RWMs and covert the extra lives via lirbary into extra cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
How good is at the moment Domain Zoo with Tribal Flames and Dark Confidant against Aggro Loam and Tempo Thresh (Wasteland/Stife)? Has this deck a chance? I mean it plays only 2 taiga and the rest one of every dual...
Have played the domain Zoo as well. While i love both Tribal Flames and Dark Confidant i rather stick with the 3c and use the the more 3c stable mana and sylvan library instead of Dark Confidant. But havent played the domain version to much.
95% of the time your Confidants get removed before you're allowed to draw a card. On the other hand, once they're in play, they're effing good. But splashing for a playset really isn't worth it.
And regarding Tribal Flames... They mostly just do 4 dmg and are a stupid SORCERY!!
You have to play 5 different duals and won't stand a chance against wastelands.
Have you tested this yet? What do you expect to take out for the 4 cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
Still waiting for my mystics to test them out. But in teory against mirror and other red decks taking out the chain lightnings for them. Geting the collar against thoes damn rhox war monks :PQuote:
Originally Posted by SteakKnife
But still wating for my mystics... hopefully they will arrive tomorrow. Hopefully geting it tested out on tuesday legacy evening.
I'm not a big fan of most of the one drops (besides Nacatl and Lavamancer) or two drops (besides Goyf and Pridemage). Would it be ridiculous to maindeck some Vexing Shushers to the local Friday night game? I don't play there a whole lot, but every competitive deck I recall facing ran FOWs (mostly Countertop and Landstill).
It really depends on your meta game. If there is a lot of counter-top and other blue decks, then MD shusher isn't too bad. It also helps against chalice decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
God, I really want to see someone play nether void against shusher.....
I agree with this. I tested with confident and I found him to get removed to often. Really the way to play is to just have a high threat density. Yes chalice exists but your more likely to draw creatures first if the threat density is high enough. Its more about having Mana available to drop your threats quickly. It just really isn't worth splashing black even though it does give you Engineered Plague in the side. The deck is about getting to 3 colors safely and that's hard enough stretching it to 4 didn't work for me. You want a deck to have one straightforward attack plan. Not make it harder on yourself by color-screw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AgOn
Also on the Loam Lion VS Steppe Lynx I'm really not sold on Lynx being better. I'm not sure where I would fit them in addition to Kird ape because of how great Lavamancer and figure are. But an early 2/3 is great against a variety of decks any way you cut it. If you are playing basics you have a good chance he will stay 2/3 and not die from Lavamancer or smaller burn like magma jet like Lynx will die.
Anyone else notice the Wing shards Luis Quintana´s undefeated-day1 zoo deck sideboard, GP Madrid? Nice tech against progenitus but also Empyrial Archangel and Sphinx of the Steel Wind if reanimator gets more popularity.
Wing shards is just a woefully underplayed removal spell in this format, period. I'm actually kind of surprised, especially with the low creature count most decks are running and Prog moving on up in the world, that people hadn't thought of it sooner. Even if they're swinging with 3 and you bolt a dude and shards the other 2 away. Card is mad good. I haven't tried it in Zoo though, to be honest, but I can't see (aside from mana issues, which i don't usually have trouble with) why it wouldn't be usable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
For those interested, I went undefeated and split the Top 4 of a 40+ man tournament over the weekend with the following build:
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nactal
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
2 Fireblast
2 Path to Exile
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Path to Exile
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
I posted because the build is somewhat different than many of those reflected in this forum. I'm not saying it is anywhere near perfect, but simply different. My meta has a large amount of Aggro Loam, Bant, and Merfolk so I play Tin-Street Hooligan in the main. The deck was solid, and the Pillars out of the board were a great surprise factor. They are too slow against most combo decks, but were very good against mid-range decks.
If I were to play again tomorrow, I may try a different direction by cutting 4 Rift Bolts, 3 Chain Lightnings, and 1 Jotun Grunt for 4 Goblin Guides, 2 Path to Exiles, and 2 Reckless Abandon. The Reckless Abandon give you a nice out when your Guides and Lynx become underpowered in the mid-game, while providing you with an unexpected 4 damage, or an out against War Monk.
One thing I noticed is that Goyf can be somewhat underwhelming. Obviously, if you play Jitte and Library main deck this is less of an issue. But, depending on the amount of combo, I would consider adding 1 of Tarfire and/or Seal of Fire. I understand this becomes much worse if all Merfolk builds start running 4 Goyfs as those from the 5k.