All B/R update speculation.

The following could also be said of Terminus:

1. It's completely dead against certain decks.

2. Like every single other Miracle card except for Temporal Mastery (And Thunderous Wrath possibly in certain decks), if you happen to topdeck it outside of your manipulation, there are times when you aren't actually going to want to play it.

Not that I don't think Terminus is amazing. It is. But UWx Control's been needing an answer like this. Over the last couple blocks, Hexproof and uncounterability have gotten out of control. I don't even think Terminus is enough to save this archetype from the savage facemelting that is Cavern of Souls, which will make decks like Goblins and MUD a nightmare. Terminus is what's needed for it to stay on par for the course.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I don't even think Terminus is enough to save this archetype from the savage facemelting that is Cavern of Souls, which will make decks like Goblins and MUD a nightmare. Terminus is what's needed for it to stay on par for the course.

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Those decks weren't doing well before. If anything, Cavern of Souls is what is needed to stop blue decks from melting their faces.

And by blue I mean Stoneblade, Sneak&Show, and Canadian Thresh / RUG Tempo / Tempo Thresh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I don't even think Terminus is enough to save this archetype from the savage facemelting that is Cavern of Souls, which will make decks like Goblins and MUD a nightmare. Terminus is what's needed for it to stay on par for the course.

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Why would MUD want Cavern of Souls? Each of their creatures are of a different type, and they want mana acceleration in the form of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors (and Metalworker, once he's in play).

True, tapping for colorless is more useful for MUD, but is the small advantage of getting one un-Forceable(*) creature worth dropping some of the lands they already play?

Again, let me point out that the current dominant form of Stoneblade has weakened its counter suite for discard.

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Originally Posted by matunos

Again, let me point out that the current dominant form of Stoneblade has weakened its counter suite for discard.

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I think this was done more in response to Storm/Sneak&Show decks and not so much that blue is "weak".

Discard is generally better against Storm: proactively getting rid of key-combo pieces will slow them down more rather than waiting for them to go off.

As for sneak&show, most counterspells are bad against them. Spell Snare doesn't hit much, Counterspell is a turn too slow, and Spell Pierce doesn't work as they can get enough mana to play around it.

Stoneblade splashes black for Lingering souls anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matunos

Why would MUD want Cavern of Souls? Each of their creatures are of a different type, and they want mana acceleration in the form of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors (and Metalworker, once he's in play).

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I've always wanted to play Chalice and Goblin Welder together on the same build. With Caverb of Souls, you can actually put a Chalice on one without worrying about your Welder.

So you get dual protection from Chalice and Welder (since Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile) is a beating.

Also, against blue decks, you can actually go ramp>ramp>threat, without worrying about it getting FoWed. (because seriously, why would you FoW the ramp if you know you can 2 for one your opponent).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matunos

Why would MUD want Cavern of Souls? Each of their creatures are of a different type, and they want mana acceleration in the form of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors (and Metalworker, once he's in play).

True, tapping for colorless is more useful for MUD, but is the small advantage of getting one un-Forceable(*) creature worth dropping some of the lands they already play?

Again, let me point out that the current dominant form of Stoneblade has weakened its counter suite for discard.

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Because gettings bombs countered is a big deal for MUD. It also allow you to go for CotV AND Welder more consistently, even if i still don't know how consistently so.

Its worth mentioning that Maverick still has Teeg and GSZ to stop the opponents from sweeping with Terminus, and GSZ to recover. In that sense, Deed is a bit better at board sweeping in that you can drop it through Teeg at a convenient 3cc. It will be good in UW Control but I have a feeling that BUG Control will retain its own niche in the heavy control archetype.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Its worth mentioning that Maverick still has Teeg and GSZ to stop the opponents from sweeping with Terminus, and GSZ to recover. In that sense, Deed is a bit better at board sweeping in that you can drop it through Teeg at a convenient 3cc. It will be good in UW Control but I have a feeling that BUG Control will retain its own niche in the heavy control archetype.

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The thing is Terminus is a hell of a lot cheaper than Deed.

Deed is 3 mana investment. You need to speend at least another mana to hit CMC1 creatures. To hit most things in Maverick (KotR), you need to spend 6 mana total (3 for casting, 3 for sac). That's 6 there.

Meanwhile, Terminus costs 6 without setup and 1 with some setup. Teeg can stop it, but that still doesn't change the fact of how powerful Terminus is. Terminus also hits ANY that Sneak-n-Show can throw at you. Even if they try to pull a fast one, it's possible for you to cast Terminus on their turn to stop an Emrukul if somehow you fail to counter their Sneak/Show. Deed can't do much about Sneak-n-Show decks.

I'm not sure why you brought up BUG control. Does BUG control have a better Maverick matchup or is it a better anti-control deck/preys on UW control decks?

Deed does have X in it's CMC, so it has to be out before the teeg comes out. >^,^<

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Originally Posted by feline

Deed does have X in it's CMC, so it has to be out before the teeg comes out >^,^<

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Deed doesn't have X in its CMC.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

The thing is Terminus is a hell of a lot cheaper than Deed.

Deed is 3 mana investment. You need to speend at least another mana to hit CMC1 creatures. To hit most things in Maverick (KotR), you need to spend 6 mana total (3 for casting, 3 for sac). That's 6 there.

Meanwhile, Terminus costs 6 without setup and 1 with some setup. Teeg can stop it, but that still doesn't change the fact of how powerful Terminus is. Terminus also hits ANY that Sneak-n-Show can throw at you. Even if they try to pull a fast one, it's possible for you to cast Terminus on their turn to stop an Emrukul if somehow you fail to counter their Sneak/Show. Deed can't do much about Sneak-n-Show decks.

I'm not sure why you brought up BUG control. Does BUG control have a better Maverick matchup or is it a better anti-control deck/preys on UW control decks?

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It is a heavy investment at 3 against aggressive decks, but its advantage over Terminus is that it can kill stuff like Equipment, something UW Control has trouble answering without countermagic.

You don't have to pay 6. You can afford to wait until turn 4 to blow it if you can land it turn 3. Also, you have other stuff to slow them down like Innocent Blood and a good countermagic suite that often includes the traditional Counterspell and Spell Snare.

You might beable to Terminus in response to Sneak Attack. I admit its better there, however, you can still draw 14 cards with Grizzlebrand in response to Terminus and thats big trouble for a slow control deck. Terminus won't always get there in that matchup.

BUG control is fantastic against control decks, and I'd say it has a good Maverick matchup.

As per latest big tournament results... seems like B/R is fine and no bans are needed.

Maybe it would be good for those that are amongst the frontrunners for random banning to actually stop next time and decide to hold their wisdom for themselves. Last few weeks were seriously chaotic due to massive overreactions.

After some intensive testing the past few days with the cards of the new set I think show and tell might be on the list soon.
Both sneak/show and reanimator benefit greatly from this card and are pushing out control as a feasible strategy in legacy. Control (landstill is a prime example) has always had difficulty with fast combo and both sneak and show and reanimator give you little to no time for interaction.
I also base this on the fact that the most powerful creature you could show and tell in quite a few time ago was a 10/10 protection from everything and that doesn't even make the cut now. Griselbrand (especially lifelink) make does decks go over the top power level wise and if not it's just a matter of time that it will get out of hand (if not this set it will be the next). Show&Tell is clearly the enabler for both decks (reanimator needs it do dodge gy hate post-board and would become vulnerable to hate pb without it) and would probably get the axe if Wizards decides action is warranted.

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Originally Posted by Reagens

After some intensive testing the past few days with the cards of the new set I think show and tell might be on the list soon.
Both sneak/show and reanimator benefit greatly from this card and are pushing out control as a feasible strategy in legacy. Control (landstill is a prime example) has always had difficulty with fast combo and both sneak and show and reanimator give you little to no time for interaction.
I also base this on the fact that the most powerful creature you could show and tell in quite a few time ago was a 10/10 protection from everything and that doesn't even make the cut now. Griselbrand (especially lifelink) make does decks go over the top power level wise and if not it's just a matter of time that it will get out of hand (if not this set it will be the next). Show&Tell is clearly the enabler for both decks (reanimator needs it do dodge gy hate post-board and would become vulnerable to hate pb without it) and would probably get the axe if Wizards decides action is warranted.

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Yeah it's almost like WotC is trying to break Show and Tell.

First it was 10/10 untouchable, what could be better? Then it was 15/15 flying annihilator untargetable by spells what could be better? Now it's 7/7 YawgBargain with Lifelink, what could be better?

We'll have to wait and see though, Emrakul couldn't put Show&Tell over the top, so the bar is set pretty damn high.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reagens

After some intensive testing the past few days with the cards of the new set I think show and tell might be on the list soon.
Both sneak/show and reanimator benefit greatly from this card and are pushing out control as a feasible strategy in legacy. Control (landstill is a prime example) has always had difficulty with fast combo and both sneak and show and reanimator give you little to no time for interaction.
I also base this on the fact that the most powerful creature you could show and tell in quite a few time ago was a 10/10 protection from everything and that doesn't even make the cut now. Griselbrand (especially lifelink) make does decks go over the top power level wise and if not it's just a matter of time that it will get out of hand (if not this set it will be the next). Show&Tell is clearly the enabler for both decks (reanimator needs it do dodge gy hate post-board and would become vulnerable to hate pb without it) and would probably get the axe if Wizards decides action is warranted.

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Show and Tell is pretty broken, but if it hasn't been banned already, why now? Reanimator is a dead deck (at least for now). Hive Mind and Dream Halls don't see much play (zero placements in the SCGRI Top 32). Sneak Attack is a DTB, but it's probably the weakest of the DTBs (although Griselbrand shoudl improve it a lot); even then, it only placed 1 deck in the Top 32 of SCGRI.

Of course, these data are not completely representative of the overall metagame, but Show and Tell has never been a weaker strategy than it is right now. Too many decks are currently running Spell Pierce, in addition to all the other normal hate.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Show and Tell is pretty broken, but if it hasn't been banned already, why now? Reanimator is a dead deck (at least for now). Hive Mind and Dream Halls don't see much play (zero placements in the SCGRI Top 32). Sneak Attack is a DTB, but it's probably the weakest of the DTBs (although Griselbrand shoudl improve it a lot); even then, it only placed 1 deck in the Top 32 of SCGRI.

Of course, these data are not completely representative of the overall metagame, but Show and Tell has never been a weaker strategy than it is right now. Too many decks are currently running Spell Pierce, in addition to all the other normal hate.

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There are no current data available since in my opinion Griselbrand will be the creature that puts both decks over the top.
Spell pierce is barely an option since 5 mana turn 3 is easily possible (petals were inlcuded in our test list). And take into account that griselbrand doesn't need an attack fase to be effective because of it's draw effect. It also refills sneak attacks hand (which was a consistency issue) and can be used as a chump blocker (block, draw seven or gain 7 life anyone??) while reanimate needs to expend a lot of life to do something over the course of a game and that is of course solved with a 7/7 lifelink flyer.

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Originally Posted by Reagens

There are no current data available since in my opinion Griselbrand will be the creature that puts both decks over the top.
Spell pierce is barely an option since 5 mana turn 3 is easily possible (petals were inlcuded in our test list). And take into account that griselbrand doesn't need an attack fase to be effective because of it's draw effect. It also refills sneak attacks hand (which was a consistency issue) and can be used as a chump blocker (block, draw seven or gain 7 life anyone??) while reanimate needs to expend a lot of life to do something over the course of a game and that is of course solved with a 7/7 lifelink flyer.

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That's a fair opinion, but we should wait for the fallout before banning.

Not sure Reanimator benefits too much from Griselbrand:
- Against RUG, you have trouble reanimating your creatures, but most creatures you reanimate (besides Jin) probably win you the game.
- Against Stoneblade, Griselbrand is probably as good as it gets, so big addition here.
- Against Maverick, Griselbrand is much better than Jin, but worse than Sphinx (because of Karakas), so it depends on what you cut. However, Jin also pitches to Force of Will, which is really important, since you can't beat Ooze, Knight, or an early GSZ for either.

Sneak Attack gets ridiculous with Griselbrand, of course.

unbanning survival.

If they banned the ooze combo. Is survival vengevine really that broken?

I'm still solidly of the belief that Survival can come off in about 2014 and be safe. Survival for the health of Legacy should have gone away, but it shouldn't have been permanent given that Legacy's power level is still rising. Unfortunately, bannings are really hard to undo, and most cards that come off only come off when they are completely impotent.

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

Is survival vengevine really that broken?

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Yes. It is. And this is coming from someone who played the fuck out of it the entire time it was legal.

Survival can come off with Vengevine still legal when every color has an amazing card that is good on its own but is also, incidentally, savage graveyard hate.

I had a thought today about how to relive TEES, and it involved a bunch of bad cards that still wouldn't work well together. Concordant Crossroads + Fauna Shaman is no SotF. Keep it banned for the health of Legacy's sake.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Yes. It is. And this is coming from someone who played the fuck out of it the entire time it was legal.

Survival can come off with Vengevine still legal when every color has an amazing card that is good on its own but is also, incidentally, savage graveyard hate.

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Doesn't Surgical Extraction fit this? I doubt it's enough, though.

I'd love to see Survival back in the format as it was part of different strong decks throughout the history of the format and therefore kind of belongs here in my view.

Who didn't liked ATS when it was good? However, I doubt that we'll see SotF anytime soon again.

WotC probably has a good idea how cards in the nearer future will look like. Although they don't mention this as a selling point when giving reasons for bannings, but I developed some kind of scepticism over the years. Maybe they even knew that Miracle cards would be pretty good in a format with Mystical Tutor legal? ;)

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

Deed doesn't have X in its CMC.

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Omg why did I confuse that! LMAO.

I wonder how the Miracle mechanic will affect Mana Drain's power if it gets unbanned (or considered). Now people have a method of casting spells that cost like 5 to 7 for a significantly reduced cost. Terminus, Retreat the Angels, and Devastation Tide are all legacy playable (and perhaps Thunderous Wrath and Temporal Mastery).. Decks could counter these spells and then have access to enough mana to cast their own Miracle spells they are holding in hand. Frankly, Mana Drain into Retreat the Angel seems like it could be pretty fucking amazing. UW Control would love itself some Mana Drain right now.

I bring this up because previously people were saying that there isn't much that you want to cast with Mana Drain right now, but with stuff like Retreat the Angels.. perhaps Mana Drain could have some applications in Legacy. Also, Force and Jace aren't going anywhere so there are still some pretty high costed cards that make Mana Drain strictly better than Counterspell in the control mirror. Also, Nic Fit is doing pretty well right now and that deck hard casts stuff at like 6cc... Perhaps an unbanning of Mana Drain would even allow decks to play cards they don't normally play simply because they will have access to tons of mana in certain matchups. Temporal Mastery, being one such card. Also, there is Fireblast which sees play in Burn and UR Delver.

Other plays I could see being made with Mana drain are Drain into Batterskull, other equipment, Jace (to leave some lands untapped for cantrips/countermagic/removal), Deed activations at costs that can destroy stuff like Sneak Attack/Hive Mind/Dream Halls or even fatties if you have enough mana with lands, and in a deck like Faerie Stompy you could cast a bunch of Stax pieces with it too.

Mana Drain would primarily be good in the control mirror and against decks like Nic Fit and Show and Tell variants because they have spells that cost more than 4 where you can actually profit well from a Mana Drain. It could also be good against UR Delver which often plays both Fireblast and Force of Will. Also, Spell Snare still exists for the post-board and with Vial AND Cavern, I can't see this hurting aggro too much. I'd say with most of the Legacy control power resting with Tempo decks ATM, unbanning Mana Drain is safe and could potentially add some balance to the format.

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Originally Posted by Blitzbold

Doesn't Surgical Extraction fit this? I doubt it's enough, though.

I'd love to see Survival back in the format as it was part of different strong decks throughout the history of the format and therefore kind of belongs here in my view.

Who didn't liked ATS when it was good? However, I doubt that we'll see SotF anytime soon again.

WotC probably has a good idea how cards in the nearer future will look like. Although they don't mention this as a selling point when giving reasons for bannings, but I developed some kind of scepticism over the years. Maybe they even knew that Miracle cards would be pretty good in a format with Mystical Tutor legal? ;)

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A couple of things.

1) Strong graveyard hate existed during the Survival-Vengevine era. That didn't stop Survival from acting as a perfectly good tutor engine in an aggro-control shell. If you went overboard with graveyard hate, they'd get you with dudes; if you went overboard with dudes hate, they'd Fireball you with Vengevines.

2) Avacyn Restored wasn't in development when Mystical Tutor was banned. IIRC Design is about two years ahead of where were are now and Development is about a year ahead of where we are now.

One of the stated reason for the Mystical ban was that it limited R&D's ability to make interesting and strong spells or spell mechanics; anytime a really good spell came out, Mystical would be there to abuse the shit out of it in Legacy. R&D would rather see the common denominator enabler banned for several reasons:

1) They could ban each of the cards it enables, but they got burned once by this with Necropotence;

2) They want people to buy new cards and banning them in Eternal formats disincentivizes this;

3) Having new cards continuously enter the format is one of the few ways to keep Eternal formats from stagnating. If the new cards were constantly getting banned, the format would likely reach a point wherein the underlying architecture is always the same but the format might deviate from it every now and then until a ban happened.

Mystical and Survival both fall into a category of cards that push players to behave in ways R&D doesn't like for the above three reasons. Sure, Survival might be fine with Vengevine banned, but VVine showed that Survival is easily pushed into "overpowered" territory with the right type of card and therefore can be re-broken at any time. But this argument is already rather played out.

I realize most Legacy players would rather play with old toys than new ones, but I think a dynamic format is better than one wherein people continue to mash the same stale decks against each other for years.

Well, I also think that survival could deserve to be unban.

First, they have created surgical extraction. This card fits perfectly well in the sideboards of every decks, and perfectly deals with those vengevine which were the main kill of the best survival decks. I think that this is the most important reason to unban survival. When sotf was banned, the only gravehate available to everyone was relic/tormod/faerie (and ligne ley that I don't take into account because of it's randomness). And it was very easy to dodge with those hate cards. Surgical seal the deal with vengevine plan.

What's more I think that almost every deck improved it's clock/redundancy.
Tempo decks obtained delver, dredge faithless, reanimator and sneak-noob.deck got griselbrand, storm got past in flammes...
That said, I think that all those decks, with these new weapons for them, could handle survival.decks more easily.

Waiting for your answer.

frenchy

The following cards will never, ever be unbanned in Legacy:

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Ante cards
Power 10
Mystical, vampiric, demonic tutors and imperial seal
Balance
Earthcraft
Flash
Gush
Hermit Druid
Library of Alexandria
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Strip Mine
Sol Ring
Survival of the Fittest
Tolarian Academy
Windfall
Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will

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Making a case that any of the above cards should be unbanned is at best wishful thinking and at worst self-delusion.

A note on Survival of the Fittest: If you do not understand what makes this card unsafe then you need to work on your understanding of the fundamentals.

As per mods moving shitty attempt to argue for unrestricting other less ubiquitous cards in the face of Brainstorms stifling dominance.

Bazaar of Moxen 6: Brainstorm 7/8 top 8
SCG: Brainstorm 7/8, 10 or top 12

Brainstorm doesn't exert "Stifling dominance." Some cards can show up everywhere without exerting stifling dominance. If 32 Wastelands showed up in a Top 8, would you call for the banning of it? (Has this ever happened? I've seen 28, but not 32) Ditto for Force of Will (It's happened), Noble Hierarch (I've seen 28), Swords to Plowshares (I've seen 28), Cabal Therapy (I've seen 24), Lightning Bolt (I've seen 24), Island, etc. Some cards are just the glue that holds things together, and some card is -always- going to be the best card that shows up more than the rest.

I'm personally more concerned that top 8's are averaging 12-16 Show and Tells, in three different Show and Tell combo decks.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

The following cards will never, ever be unbanned in Legacy:


Making a case that any of the above cards should be unbanned is at best wishful thinking and at worst self-delusion.

A note on Survival of the Fittest: If you do not understand what makes this card unsafe then you need to work on your understanding of the fundamentals.

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Just saying that the deck dominated only in the US. In Europe, the deck was very powerful, just as TT nowadays. The card was banned because of some american whiners. We adapted to the deck in Europed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malakai

The following cards will never, ever be unbanned in Legacy:
...
Making a case that any of the above cards should be unbanned is at best wishful thinking and at worst self-delusion.
...

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You can add Channel and Fastbond to that list.

Mind's Desire seems like an odd inclusion in a list where all other cards banned for power level have an effective casting cost of at most 3. (Nothing at 4cc, and Gush at 5 is clearly there because of the alternative casting cost.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frenchy-man

Just saying that the deck dominated only in the US. In Europe, the deck was very powerful, just as TT nowadays. The card was banned because of some american whiners. We adapted to the deck in Europed.

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I'm european, I love SotF and this is a pretty nice story but this just isnt true, satistics easly show you're wrong, including with european tournaments results. Let's be realistic : a tutor engine at 1G was just not compatible anymore with the average powerness of recently released creatures. This could be said also with SnT, but the main difference is that SotF does provide to the the ability to search your deck the right solution to a difficult situation, but SnT does not. SotF was much much more versatile, less impressive in theory, but stronger in reality.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I'm personally more concerned that top 8's are averaging 12-16 Show and Tells, in three different Show and Tell combo decks.

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WotC probably printed Grislebrand so they could have a good excuse to ban Show and Tell.

I think Show and Tell will eventually get banned due the nature of card though. Sooner or later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I'm personally more concerned that top 8's are averaging 12-16 Show and Tells, in three different Show and Tell combo decks.

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Good to know that now it isn't Delvers and GSZeniths any longer.... :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malakai

The following cards will never, ever be unbanned in Legacy:

Ante cards
Power 10
Mystical, vampiric, demonic tutors and imperial seal
Balance
Earthcraft
Flash
Gush
Hermit Druid
Library of Alexandria
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Strip Mine
Sol Ring
Survival of the Fittest
Tolarian Academy
Windfall
Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will

Making a case that any of the above cards should be unbanned is at best wishful thinking and at worst self-delusion.

A note on Survival of the Fittest: If you do not understand what makes this card unsafe then you need to work on your understanding of the fundamentals.

---

Earthcraft? Really? I don't even understand why people are scared of this card. I bet nobody can produce a list of anything that goes over the top with this. So Elves might be good? That's fine isn't it?

I'm also a tad sick of people thinking Hermit Druid is the Bogey Man. Is there something other than a Cephalid Breakfast deck with a few less colors and dead cards that this guy can be used in? That's all I see and it isn't very scary.

Well... the fact that you could play GSZ into Hermit Druid seems pretty good because then it dodges counters and allows you to run virtual copies. Also, Hermit Druid is the breakfast refined. He allows you to save a lot of deck space, allowing you to play more cantrips, protection, etc.

Also, with access to something like Cavern of Souls (naming Human), this deck could play Hermit Druid through Countermagic, not to mention Vial.

Not saying it would bust the format up but it seems like it would be REALLY powerful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Well... the fact that you could play GSZ into Hermit Druid seems pretty good because then it dodges counters and allows you to run virtual copies. Also, Hermit Druid is the breakfast refined. He allows you to save a lot of deck space, allowing you to play more cantrips, protection, etc.

Also, with access to something like Cavern of Souls (naming Human), this deck could play Hermit Druid through Countermagic, not to mention Vial.

Not saying it would bust the format up but it seems like it would be REALLY powerful.

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There's nothing wrong with that, I think. Reanimator and Dredge are both strong, graveyard-based linears; Show and Tell decks (of various flavors) and Reanimator are both strong blue-based combo decks with cantrips and disruption. The format could probably stand a Hermit Druid deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Well... the fact that you could play GSZ into Hermit Druid seems pretty good because then it dodges counters and allows you to run virtual copies. Also, Hermit Druid is the breakfast refined. He allows you to save a lot of deck space, allowing you to play more cantrips, protection, etc.

Also, with access to something like Cavern of Souls (naming Human), this deck could play Hermit Druid through Countermagic, not to mention Vial.

Not saying it would bust the format up but it seems like it would be REALLY powerful.

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You save four slots. You also now have to wait for summoning sickness. If you try to come up with any nonsense solutions to that, those are just taking back those slots you just saved.

You need to pass the turn with a 1/1 green creature. Cavern sounds good and all, but it doesn't cast very much else. GSZ for the druid costs 3 mana.

I'm not saying it would be horrible. Really all he would do is make breakfast less bad. It would still be a deck that loses to all removal and graveyard hate and pithing needle.

Again, this is assuming there isn't something better than breakfast that can be done with him.

These cards could probably be unbanned.

Black Vise - Only concern = Stasis, which I would play because I'm a dick, so maybe not.
Earthcraft - Extremely Meh card. Does nothing on it's own and maybe only goes in Enchantress as a 1x if it goes anywhere.
Land Tax - Terrible card. Embarrassment to the ban list.
Mind Twist - Maybe
Mind's Desire - Worse than other options.
Shahrazad - This card was never a problem when it was played. If you have the balls to run this you should be able to.
Survival of the Fittest - You have a powerful card that was really good but not broken for 10 years, then you have a shitty card that breaks it and does absolutely nothing else. Fix your mistake WotC, ban Vine, unban Survival.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kusumoto

Earthcraft? Really? I don't even understand why people are scared of this card. I bet nobody can produce a list of anything that goes over the top with this. So Elves might be good? That's fine isn't it?

I'm also a tad sick of people thinking Hermit Druid is the Bogey Man. Is there something other than a Cephalid Breakfast deck with a few less colors and dead cards that this guy can be used in? That's all I see and it isn't very scary.

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There are several ways to do it, but the end result is the same. Hermit Druid taps, and the game ends. He was considered broken in a time before Narcomoebas and Dread Returns and things have only gone more in his favor since then. Hermit Druid, a few combo peices, and the rest of the deck is disruption and non-basic lands. He has pretty good synergy with Cabal Therapy.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Survival of the Fittest - You have a powerful card that was really good but not broken for 10 years, then you have a shitty card that breaks it and does absolutely nothing else. Fix your mistake WotC, ban Vine, unban Survival.

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I'd like to see that also. I am quite fed up with Control beeing 45-55% of the meta.