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That's a lucky win against RUG Lands. Typically they do everything better than our deck. They are the better loam (waste lock) deck, they have move control for creatures via 3 Maze of Ith. They can instantly dig up lands via Intuition and Crop Rotation.
Nice win though!
Hey, so, in other news, I'm running the Kronberger Special, and I constantly finding myself wishing I had 1xThoughtseize in the board. Yes, it costs 1cc, which is what we're objectively trying not to run, but against non-interactive decks such as OmniTell and Sneak&Show, I'm constantly finding myself coming up short. No clock. No relevant taxing effects. Etc. While one lone Thoughtseize isn't enough to improve the match-ups that significantly, there's no doubt that it would pull its weight. Especially when you count in its value against ANT and such.
However, my problem is that I like my board. Thrun is easily the card with the least universal and least critical worth, but like I said before, one Thoughtseize in the board isn't enough to flip match-ups around. And one Thrun, thanks to the power of GSZ, is.
I don't know... Here's my board. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
1*Containment Priest
1*Ethersworn Canonist
1*Kor Firewalker
1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
1*Reclamation Sage
1*Thrun, the Last Troll
4*Leyline of the Void
1*Massacre/Toxic Deluge
1*Ancient Grudge
1*Choke
2*Golgari Charm
IMO the thoughtseize wont help. Discard becomes meaninful when you have established a clock and can fire off multiple discard spells.
I think you could make a sorted list of what decks you want to beat to see if it is worth changing the board.
With 4x Leyline of the Void you are saying that it is worth 4 slots for you to beat dredge and reanimator. Is this true? Those same 4 slots can for example make your matchup against most combo decks very good.
Is Containment Priest a 5th piece of grave hate? Do you need it because the S&S matchup is bad?
Ancient Grudge is because you want to beat mud?
Spirit of the Labyrinth is against old UR delver?
1*Containment Priest
1*Ethersworn Canonist
1*Kor Firewalker
1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
1*Reclamation Sage
1*Thrun, the Last Troll
4*Leyline of the Void
1*Massacre/Toxic Deluge
1*Ancient Grudge
1*Choke
2*Golgari Charm
For starters, I would cut the Massacre / Toxic Deluge. They are not effective as 1-ofs and can only be played once. I run a 2/1 split between Golgari Charms and Engineered Plague. Everything else can be PFired.
I would trade out one of those cards and dump the Kor Firewalker to increase your Ethersworn Cannonist count to 3.
Thrun is an absolute beast against Miracles / UWR Stoneforge and shouldn't be removed.
I would cut the SotL for an additional Containment Priest.
Don't forget, CotV is a powerhouse against any combo deck. If they don't start with a turn 1 hand, they will need to cast a bunch of cantrips to be able to find what they are looking for. CotV on 1 just shuts them down to that and can easily buy you 5-6 turns.
Here is a good SB for an open meta:
2 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Thrun
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
I probably won't make such drastic changes without grinding through a bunch of relevant pretty-much-goldfish games, but here's the thought so far.
Ethersworn Canonist I do definitely need to bump up in count. Its ability to stunt the growth of any combo deck, from Elves to ANT to OmniShow, remains unparalleled. I was trying for a bit to break away, because surely a bear from seven years ago that you can neither reliably dig nor tutor for can't be your best option. But the truth is that it remains the best. Worth a shot.
Thoughtsieze I still want to add. We can go "haha Chalice!" and "haha Knight!" and "haha Teeg!", but when they cast a Show and Tell into Griselbrand or Sneak Attack for Emrakul, we're still pretty fucked. And though the methods may be different, it's the same with every combo deck. We can reliably establish a clock, but it takes us three turns, and we rarely do much of anything on the first turn. Especially if we desperately need to hold a Green Sun's Zenith for Teeg or Knight or Sage. I've tried sample hands against a variety of combo decks, and there was never a time I wasn't happy to see Thoughtseize. It's just an amazing bridge.
Kor Firewalker I'm tempted to leave in unless I substitute a card that's effective against both Burn and the rest of the meta. I'm not sure how everyone else is faring against Burn, but I remain uncomfortable with it. So, maybe Kor Firewalker is a crutch, but it's one that I definitely need. Last night I was thinking of doing a Duress rather than a Thoughtseize so that I could replace Firewalker, but Thoughtseize is such a better effect that I'm not sure.
Spirit of the Labyrinth isn't necessarily to hose any specific deck. It's just an exceptionally well-rounded card that gets sideboarded in more often than not on the basis of "being good". I could be willing to replace it if a suitable candidate was presented.
bryanzoll, I agree with you about the Toxic Deluge/Massacre. It more follows the Spirit of the Labyrinth line of reasoning of "it's good".
Containment Priest is actually one of the cards I was considering giving the axe to. It has been nothing but lackluster. It's not worth bringing in against things like Death and Taxes, and against things like Elves, it is just functionally comparable to a slew of other more generally useful cards. The only deck it's truly exceptional against is Sneak&Show, and I don't think that alone is a good enough reason for its inclusion. I might keep one copy as just an option (fuck you, NO), but I'm definitely not considering increasing its count.
As stated earlier, I don't disagree about Thrun.
Choke I'm undecided on.
So, going forward, one small change at a time, I think this is what I'd be looking at. -1*Massacre/Toxic Deluge, -1*Kor Firewalker. +1*Ethersworn Canonist, +1*Thoughtseize. I will miss the Kor Firewalker, but I think I just need to get over not having it. Choke and Spirit of the Labyrinth (roughly in that order) are probably the cards next up for the chopping block, but I'd have to think long and hard about them.
1*Containment Priest
2*Ethersworn Canonist
1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
1*Reclamation Sage
1*Thrun, the Last Troll
4*Leyline of the Void
1*Thoughtseize
1*Ancient Grudge
1*Choke
2*Golgari Charm
p.s. This message was written over a long period of time while at work. Sorry if it's rambling and shitty.
-4x Bob
+2x SFM
+1 jitte
+1 batterskull
Is very good against burn.
Whenever I resolve a chalice I timewalk them until they draw a smash. They play 20+ 1drops and many of the other cards can be played around. I also bring in Thalia against burn because chalice + thalia requires them to have 3 mana to start playing the game, and she slows them down a lot while being pretty good in combat.
@iamajellydonut: Containment Priest is actually meant against Sneak and Show primarily. Since we don't run taxing effects (Thalia, Sphere, etc.) we have to attack them 2 ways: 1) their cantrips, easiest way to do this is Chalice on 1; 2) The method in which they get creatures into play, Containment Priests. Outside of that, bringing in cannonists is nice, but you really only have a few cards to cut in this matchup since they will generally bring in Blood Moon against you G2 and G3. As far as burn goes, I've never had an issue in G2 or G3 outside of being unlucky. Getting a chalice on 1 buys you enough turns to ultimately win the game. There are a lot of threats you play that they need to answer instead of throwing burn at your face. Since I play with Dark Depths / Stage, I usually take the combo route this match since there is nothing they can do to stop it depending on my opener.
@apocolyps: What does your 75 look like if you have SFM package?
Are we keeping in mind that you are running a completely different deck than the deck in question?Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/naya-loam-29-04-14-1/
vs
http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/ba...vent,c147.html
Also, just general advice, don't automatically look to cut Dark Confidant against Burn. Even in your average deck, like Jund, the life lost by Dark Confidant is around ~1.2 per flip. In Loam, it's closer to ~1. One life to dig deeper into the deck, to find Scavenging Ooze to find Knight to find Chalice to find Diamond, is absolutely worth it. Plus, it's a set of legs. I would much rather have that set of legs than nothing. The only trouble with Dark Confidant comes when you get stuck with multiples of it instead of your kill. As it stands, my entire sideboarding plan against Burn, without Kor Firewalker, is shuffling cards around to make it look like I did something, and then playing the stock 60 with the knowledge that I am playing against burn.
That's why I said "Sneak&Show" in conjunction with "Containment Priest". The trouble is that Sneak&Show is a deck, and it's pretty much Containment Priest's only use. It's like trying to bail out the Titanic with a child's pail.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
@bryanzoll
I feel like I'm posting my list here way too much as is and was trying not to be too spammy. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/naya-loam-29-04-14-1/
@iamajellydonut
The decks are different, but completely is a huge overstatement. What you are playing is more different from "original" aggro loam with DDreams and Crusher and Assualt than mine is from the BOM list.
Considering the fact that I have positive matchups against Sneak&Show, Miracles, and burn, I don't think it is the worst idea ever to borrow some tech.
I agree with not siding out all your bobs if that is the deck you are playing, but IDK if you can play Batterskull and Bob against burn. Maybe you can, that's just what I cut for my SFM package
Glad I'm not the only one who does this. I've found you can't actually afford to cut Bob because you need to find and stick Chalices on 1 AND 2 to have a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I haven't played a lot of the matchup, but I think it is very difficult for 4C and I don't think having 1x Firewalker post-board changes that. My plan is to just pray that it isn't popular at bigger tournaments in my area, which I've found is usually the case. People in the States love their Delvers and Stoneforge Mystics.
I'm also intrigued by the Thoughtseize idea, I might try that out when I have a chance.
So, I played at Eternal Extravaganza 2: The Reckoning this weekend, and managed to go 6-2-1 for 27th after losing the win-and-in.
I basically played the stock Kronberger Special with a few minor changes. The sideboard was changed as I was writing down my decklist, and it ended up doing exactly what I needed to. Looking forward, ignoring that I'm probably going to be trying out Collected Company until I realize it isn't all that and a bag of potato chips, Urborg is the only card I'm going to be changing. It has been nothing but a liability for the entirety of its stay in the deck. Even just another Bayou would be swell.
All in all, I had an amazing time. The venue kicked ass, and I played about as flawlessly as I can. Final tally was three mistakes and one decision that didn't pan out. If anyone wants a half-assed rundown of matches, let me know. Otherwise I'm gonna go back to pretending to work.
25*Land
1*Forest
2*Barren Moor
2*Bayou
2*Grove of the Burnwillows
1*Horizon Canopy
1*Karakas
1*Maze of Ith
1*Savannah
2*Scrubland
1*Taiga
2*Tranquil Thicket
1*Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Windswept Heath
12*Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Scavenging Ooze
1*Gaddock Teeg
4*Knight of the Reliquary
1*Qasali Pridemage
1*Dryad Arbor
23*Other Spells
3*Liliana of the Veil
3*Punishing Fire
2*Green Sun's Zenith
3*Life from the Loam
1*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
4*Chalice of the Void
4*Mox Diamond
Sideboard
1*Containment Priest
3*Ethersworn Canonist
1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
1*Thrun, the Last Troll
4*Leyline of the Void
1*Thoughtseize
1*Toxic Deluge
1*Ancient Grudge
2*Golgari Charm
Deck: Same as last time -2x Containment Priest + 1x trinisphere, 1x darkblast in the board.
Round 1 Manaless Dredge
0 pieces of grave hate in the SB. This does not end well.
0-2
Round 2 ANT
G1: He plays Volc, Top and I play Waste, mox and keep up a cycle land. He draws, draws with top, and plays a trop. I play a chalice, He brainstorms and lets it resolve. He fetches for Usea and Infernal Tutors for cabal ritual. I GSZ for Teeg and he scoops.
G2: I keep a loose 6 with 2 cycle lands and a mox and more lands. I figure I’ll see a hate piece in my top 4 cards to land one on turn 2. There is like 12+ of them. I should have probably mulliganed. I cycler and find not much. Land a t2 knight. Then loam back my cycle lands and punt. I had 2 mana and a knight. I pass because I didn’t think I had the mana for cycle + 2drop and wanted to be safe from discard. The knight was mentally reserved for getting lage :/. Opponent goes off but had some bad flips off of Ad Naus and loses.
2-2
Round 3 Imperial Painter
G1: My 2x Mox into knight hand lets me quickly lage him it death.
G2: opponent plays a t1 moon. I mulligan to 6 to find a mox. I punishing fire some of his dudes and get in the red zone with a GSZ’d for dryad arbor. Opponent plays land drops into recruiter for servant with the stone on board. I play a classm and a fire to get rid of both our boards. I find a 2nd mox and play some 11/11 knights
4-2
Round 4 UR delver
G1: My opponent struggles with mana while I have 4 removal spells but no threats. I fetch up a tree and get to work while killing his delvers. I eventually zenith up a knight and lage him
G2: I drop a t2 Chalice. He drops a t3 blood moon. I follow up with a jitte, dryad arbor. The tree beats get there.
6-2
I would like a half-assed rundown of matches!Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
What don't you like about Urborg? I haven't played it but I'm considering putting one in.
Urborg does have its merits. Being able to cast Liliana with only one black source, saving life off of Horizon Canopy and fetches, being able to save fetches, letting Maze of Ith tap for mana, etc. But this weekend its flaws were glaring, and it's pissed me off so many times before that I'm just done with it. As with all utility lands, its non-dualness constantly presented difficulties, as well as the inability to sac it to Knight of the Reliquary. However, it also enabled my opponents several times over the course of the night. Most notably when my Lands opponent was able to successfully buy enough time with Ports supported by a swamp-ified Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Dark Depths, and when one of my Elves opponents was able to Abrupt Decay my Chalice of the Void with two basic Forests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
Anyway, one half-assed rundown of matches coming right up! At least it's coming up after I get over this bout of what I suspect to be mono. Woke up dead yesterday morning and I'm still feeling it today. :/
I do feel sort of the same about Urbord. I've actually won once becuase my opponent enabled me with the card.
The only true time I thought the card was a badass was I think one time I decided running Raven's Crime on the sideboard, I was able to pull like 5 cards from my opponent with Urborg's help.
Ok, so, other than coughing up something that was the size, shape, and consistency of a mucus-covered baby water buffalo this morning, I'm doing pretty good. And, while I'm doing pretty good, I'm gonna give this a whirl. Everything should be accurate, but since I threw away my papers between rounds because the life totals are very telling, it will also be incomplete. Notably I forget what order four of the rounds were in.
Please, feel free to comment, criticize, or jeer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Round One vs Elves (Jason)
2-1
Game 1: I'm fairly certain I lose the roll, but he ends up having to mull to five and I snag game one with some hot Knight action.
-1*Maze of Ith
-1*Dark Confidant
-1*Scavenging Ooze
-1*Qasali Pridemage
-2*Liliana of the Veil
-1*Green Sun's Zenith
-2*Life from the Loam
+1*Containment Priest
+3*Ethersworn Canonist
+1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1*Thoughtseize
+1*Toxic Deluge
+2*Golgari Charm
Game 2: I have a slower hand. He rolls over my speed bumps, does his Elves thing, and I scoop.
Game 3: I get a quick start as well as literally every piece of hate known to man. We chat about Ruric Thar, sign the slip, and go our separate ways.
Round 2/3/4/5(?) vs Burn (Spencer?)
2-1
Game 1: He leads off with a turn one Grim Lavamancer followed by a few Bolts, which makes me nervous because I hate playing against Burn, but I get a Chalice of the Void set at 1cc. And then a Chalice of the Void set at 2cc. And then a scoop.
-1*Gaddock Teeg
+1*Thoughtseize
Game 2: I make a feeble effort to stay alive. He rolls over me with double Goblin Guide and the works.
Game 3: He's terrified to see a turn 1 Chalice of the Void, but he does have a Rift Bolt to suspend on his turn one, and he blows up the Chalice of the Void shortly thereafter. However, I quickly use a Green Sun's Zenith to find Scavenging Ooze, and he's forced to use a Fireblast to deal with it. In response, I burn my own Dark Confidant with Punishing Fire, and eat it with Scavenging Ooze. He has to use a Bolt or scoop, so he Bolts and never recovers.
Round 2/3/4/5(?) vs Stoneblade (Clifford)
0-2
As we shuffle up, he flips his deck the wrong way and shows me a Tundra, and then his hands slip and he flashes an equipment.
Game 1: Doesn't matter that I got free information. I have to mull pretty hard and end up losing game one.
I honestly forget what I boarded out, but I know I brought in:
+1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1*Thrun, the Last Troll
+1*Ancient Grudge
Game 2: I start off with an early Spirit of the Labyrinth. It swings in aaand... Restoration Angel. Squish. That Restoration Angel attacks me for three, and I figure "Well, that's interesting, but he can't have two. Can he?". So, I swing in with my Dark Confidant. He can. He does. Later on he resolves a Jace which bounces stuff and starts being Jace-y. In play I have a Knight of the Reliquary and a Karakas. In hand, I have a Green Sun's Zenith and a Knight of the Reliquary that's unknown to him. He's left his Restoration Angels playing defense for Jace. I figure I have a few options to get out of this, and decide to lead off with the Green Sun's Zenith trying to get out Thrun. He Force of Wills it. Next turn, after he bounces my Knight of the Reliquary with Jace, he Surgical Extracts a Knight of the Reliquary that was put into my graveyard earlier and lets out a belt of laughter as I flip two Knights of the Reliquary from my hand. The game ends shortly thereafter.
Round 2/3/4/5(?) vs Elves (Chris)
2-1
Really fun guy even though I called him Steve or Spencer (or maybe one of those is actually the real one and I called you Chris?). In between games 1 and 2, one of his friends passes by the table. Much to my ego-stroking satisfaction, Chris or Spencer or Steve or whatever has little idea what I'm playing. I awkwardly stop them before something bad spills out, but I see them in the waiting room later and apologize for being a minor dick about it. The friend understood. 'sall good.
Game 1: I feel bad. He goes on a mull to four, which is good for me because Elves is an awkward match-up, but also unfortunate because we were hoping for a good full set. Anyway, he doesn't draw out of it. He plays a Wooded Foothills trying to stall for time while he figured out if he should scoop or not. He does, and that Wooded Foothills is the only thing I see.
I don't even have to consult the mental checklist to know it's Elves. But since the only thing I saw was a single Khans Wooded Foothills, I don't want to sideboard too heavily towards Elves just in case it's a budget option for some other combo.
Game 2: It's Elves. He Natural Orders for a Progenitus and I get my shit vigorously pushed in. I do have a Liliana in hand though. So, I burn off his Heritage Druid and try to snipe his Progenitus with Liliana. He does the correct thing though and fetches for a Dryad Arbor. I scoop and we move to game 3.
See first Elves match for sideboarding.
Game 3: Turn one I drop a Chalice of the Void at 1cc, and then Wasteland keeps him from ever seeing mana enough to break free. We chat after, and then we pass the slip in.
Round 2/3/4/5(?) vs Shardless BUG
2-1
All of my other opponents were happy people that I was able to kick around awful jokes with, but this kid was kind of a dink. And, if you read this, I don't mind saying that you were kind of a dink. Because you were. He said he was sick, which is maybe why he was a grumpy gills, but that just kind of seemed like his general disposition. It's also possible that he's the reason I am now sick. In which case, the status gets upgraded from "dink" to "asshole".
Game 1: I lose the roll. He opens up with turn one Deathrite Shaman followed by turn two Liliana. It pretty much goes from there. I do have a Green Sun's Zenith in hand, but I do a quick scope at the board and, annoyed with my opponent and my luck, I scoop it up and hide further information.
I didn't see any Baleful Strix in any of the games (is this still a thing anymore?), so Golgari Charms and Ancient Grudge were left in the sideboard.
-1*Karakas
-1*Gaddock Teeg
+1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1*Toxic Deluge
Game 2: A grindy, yet solid, beating. He casts a Shardless Agent into Brainstorm while I have a Spirit of the Labyrinth on the board. He says "cast Brainstorm". I point to my Spirit of the Labyrinth and, before I can get more in and assert my dominance, he shuffles up the small revealed pile and offers me to "cut them". Annoyed and aware that I am likely to win anyway, I cut his proffered pile of shame and continue playing the game. Eventually I get double Knight of the Reliquary on the board and beat him down. Rather than cycle a Barren Moor right before damage in order to sneak in lethal, I cycle it before combat trying to see if I can dig up a kill spell and get reminded that Spirit of the Labyrinth prevents the draw. I swing for lethal anyway and we move to game 3.
Game 3: I Abrupt Decay his turn one Deathrite Shaman and Wastelock him out. He scoops, signs the slip, and goes away. I sit back pretty pleased that I got to cram it in even without ever seeing Chalice of the Void or Punishing Fire.
Round Six vs Miracles (Brian)
1-1-1
Really great games. With many congratulations as we saw eachother later in the event, and a high-five when we learned he made top 16 (not sure how he did after that).
Game 1: As one might expect, it was exceptionally grindy. It got even grindier when I tried to mill away the top two rotten cards revealed by Sylvan Library with a Life from the Loam, and ended up hitting Gaddock Teeg with the unknown third flip -_-. Anyway, as implied, I got a Sylvan Library going early and I also found a Loam. We played a pretty intense Loam vs Counterbalance war in which he consistently wiffed (thank you god) and, after a call to confirm Maze of Ith "vigilance", I was able to find multiple Knights for a solid win.
-2*Punishing Fire
-1*Life from the Loam
+1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1*Thrun, the Last Troll
+1*Thoughtseize
Game 2: I mull to six and keep an ok hand, but it's kind of weak on mana. He deliberately fetches basics, which makes me nervous, but I have no choice anyway except to dig for a dual land. He drops a Blood Moon, much to my dismay, and I get locked out of the game. I do stay in the game for a little bit because he only has one of each relevant basic and I only need my Forest or a Mox Diamond to get back in the game, but he flashes me Force of Will (maybe double Force?) and I scoop knowing that I do have to win the next game.
Game 3: Holy Terminus, Batman. Another grindy game that ended with him flipping Terminus after Terminus and barely clinging to life. I managed to get a Spirit of the Labyrinth on the board as well as a Chalice of the Void and slowly started beating him to death. At one point he played a Jace and chose to +0 while the Spirit of the Labyrinth was on the board. Playing to win, I let him make that choice, but we were also playing to beat the clock at the point and he reached for his library faster than I could stop him. He apparently thought the Spirit meant that he could still draw one other than his natural draw. We established the interaction pretty much the exact second a judge walked by and stopped us. Not wanting to get a win that desperately, I ignored the seen-card and we nervously and hurriedly explained to the judge that I had stopped him from drawing cards off of Jace and he was just putting cards back. The game resumed, and he cast a Brainstorm as I swung with the acknowledgement of "I would only draw one" with reference to Spirit of the Labyrinth. Through a combination of me seeing Spirit of the Labyrinth and being "lol, ok" and us being unprepared with so few dice that we had to go without on Chalice, I completely forgot about the Chalice of the Void trigger. Needless to say, he draws his card, and he had put back a Terminus with Jace. As we go into turns we realize that I missed the Chalice trigger, and we both go "HOLY SHIT". With no hard feelings, we pass in the slip in as a draw. Lesson learned on my part.
Round Seven vs Helm Miracles (Jeremy)
2-1
Our driver. He threatened me with walking home, but I manned up to the challenge and showed him who was boss. In fairness, all of his games thus far had gone pretty much into turns, so he was probably tired by that point, but I did have basically exactly what I needed and he didn't.
Game 1: I think I win the roll. Regardless, on turn two he plays his singleton Seat of the Synod, which gets Wasted, and kind of flounders from there.
-1*Barren Moor
-1*Scavenging Ooze
-2*Punishing Fire
-2*Life from the Loam
+1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1*Thrun, the Last Troll
+1*Thoughtseize
+1*Ancient Grudge
+2*Golgari Charm
Game 2: I forget how it exactly went, but I know it was a tight game. He had landed a Rest in Peace, which made my Knight of the Reliquary a Gray Ogre, but he still had no way to truly halt the impending doom. At the last second he lands a Helm of Obedience and, not needing to crack a fetchland much to my in-hand Ancient Grudge's dismay, activates it and mills me out.
Game 3: Pretty much exactly the same thing as game 1. Seat of the Synod. Flounder. He wishes me luck, curses the Seat of the Synod, and goes off after that to lynch the friend who had convinced him it was necessary to get around Choke and such.
Round Eight vs Good Stuff Grixis (Rich Shay)
2-1
It was basically everything good in Grixis thrown into a pile and then thrown at my face. Young Pyromancers, Dig Through Time, etc. Also a lot of basics. For some, even though he had no other matching pieces, reason his Thought Scours reminded me of Ascendancy. I quickly learned this was not the case
Game 1: He resolved a bunch of Young Pyromancers and basics, and a bit of sloppy ordering put me in a bad spot, but Punishing Fire puts me ahead and I get there with Knight of the Reliquary.
-1*Karakas
-1*Gaddock Teeg
-2*Liliana of the Veil
+1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1*Toxic Deluge
+2*Golgari Charm
I was tempted to put in a singleton Leyline of the Void, but opted against it in favor of action.
Game 2: I had a hand devoid of Moon-resistant mana, and I end up paying for it. I do play out the next few turns just in case, but it quickly becomes clear that the game is over and I scoop.
Game 3: Exceptionally grindy. He resolves what seems to be every single Dig Through Time in the history of Magic and then some. But Golgari Charms pave the way. All in all they were good games.
Round Nine vs Lands (Nikolai004)
1-2
I'm 10th going into this. Knowing that we can't draw and make it even on breakers, we joke about conceding and play it out.
Game 1: Knowing this is a win-and-in, losing the roll and going to six cards does not make me any less nervous. However, as it turns out, I had zero reason to be nervous. It was literally the best hand I could have possibly hoped for. 2xMox Diamond, Life from the Loam, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland, Fetch. He opens with Forest->Exploration->Taiga and passes the turn. The hand was pretty solid as it is, but my draw was a Scrubland. Which let me Abrupt Decay his Exploration and start him into a softlock with Wasteland. Eventually he breaks free, but it's too late. He gets a Maze of Ith down, which only serves to aggravate the Reliquary God. At the game's end, there were multiple paths to victory, but I ended up ulting Lili in such a fashion that he had to sacrifice Maze of Ith, and then killed him for exactsies with Punishing Fire
-1*Gaddock Teeg
-1*Liliana of the Veil
-3*Punishing Fire
+1*Thrun, the Last Troll
+4*Leyline of the Void
Game 2: Kind of an embarrassing game. I didn't necessarily make a mistake. I just made the wrong choice. He was on the play of course, and I started out with two Leyline of the Voids in play. He, unfortunately, Krosan Gripped both of them, which was bad in the sense that he had killed them, but ok in the sense that he had drawn two Krosan Grips and spent a good amount of time and resources getting rid of them. Knowing that time is not on my side, I decide to try and expand the board and use my Karakas for mana. End of turn Crop Rotation for a 20/20. gg.
Game 3: Aaand the reason I hate Urborg. I'm not sure if I got down a Leyline, but I know I got down a Chalice at 1cc, and that made me feel pretty safe. Unfortunately, around turn four I made my land drop in the form of Urborg, the only land in my hand, and audibly groaned as I did so. But what's the worst that can happen? Apparently the worst that can happen is granting his Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Dark Depths the ability to power Rishadan Ports. I get stalled by the Ports and, just as I'm about to untap and swing for lethal, he drops his singleton Seismic Assault and empties his hand. My life being low from Sylvan Library keeps, I get burned out of a win-and-in. Happens. I wish him luck, and get ready to pick up my FBB Scrub.
Thanks for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I'm thinking about a biggish tournament coming up in around a month, and while I love this deck so far I'm starting to feel like I should Just Play JundTM. I've been having some trouble against BUG and Miracle decks with Loam, which are sure to be quite popular.
np, babe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
I don't think Jund necessarily fares better or worse against Miracles or BUG than the Kronberger Special does. It's more comparing apples to oranges. Though, for what it's worth and ignoring that Loam is more capable than Jund to grind a long tournament, I do prefer Loam against the two aforementioned decks because it can allow me to dictate the pace of the game rather than them. Its nut draws are also far more effective than Jund's, which is something that Jund is renowned for.
Anyway, you should honestly go with whatever deck you're most comfortable with. It doesn't matter if one deck is Meathooks and the other deck is powered MUD if you don't know how MUD works. Yesterday I lent my deck out to a friend, and I watched him start out his first game ever with it. He sat across from a known Miracles player and won the die roll. His hand was Mox Diamond, Verdant Catacombs, Barren Moor, Life from the Loam, and three Chalice of the Voids. And he mulled it.
Obviously that's a bit on the extreme end, and his reasoning did make a bit of sense even if it was the wrong choice, but I just want to put it out there as an example of how important knowing your deck is.
Ok, so, I have a pretty dumb question for the general public, but it's a necessary question.
Do you feel like you're getting the most value out of the slot your Horizon Canopy is in? I mean, on paper, it's a fantastic land. Need mana? Job done. Don't need mana? Filter it away! Such value. But in practice I find myself just kind of always needing mana portion, and it ends up acting as a really shitty City of Brass.
I do like that it's not a dual for the sake of Massacre. I do like that I can cycle it away in a pinch. But I also feel like there must be something better out there. But I don't need any more duals. Or fetches. Or basics. Or Thickets. Can't run more Wastes. Etc.
... I dunno. Right now I'm just looking for any weak points, and this is definitely the most prominent. For reference, here's my current land set-up, though I don't think it should matter too much.
1*Forest
2*Barren Moor
3*Bayou
2*Grove of the Burnwillows
1*Horizon Canopy
1*Karakas
1*Maze of Ith
1*Savannah
2*Scrubland
1*Taiga
2*Tranquil Thicket
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Dryad Arbor
I am currently toying with a cabal pit or a bojuka bog. In the right meta, any of them can be very useful.
I also like to always have access to a manland. I've been rocking nantuko monastery for the last 6 months, but Deathrites are a pain lately, so I am gonna toy with a tapped one(treetop, stirring wildwood, RG one).
Yeah, if you're insatisfied with it try a new tech perhaps! I have tested Treetop Village before and it's pretty neat, specially if you have a TNN in front of you. You can just endlessly swing for 3 in such occasion. Or maybe urborg?
I like playing a manland. I used to play Stirring Wildwood (mainly because I have a swag signed Japanese one tbh) but I think Treetop Village is better. In the matchup where manlands matter most, Miracles, you have to worry about RIP so I'm not crazy about Nantuko Monastery.
Props of SCG Prov:
Met Seraphix
Hung out with friends because "local event".
... And that's about it. Played against two Sneak 'n' Shows. Failed to make money.
My surprise at seeing someone else in the room on the same deck cannot be put into words.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
"Failed to make money" would be a gross understatement of my experience. The meta was surprisingly unfair (look at the Top 16), and well, when you don't see your sideboard cards in game 2 you kind of just die.
And Life from the Loam is just terminally slow in this meta for anything with the aggro concept anywhere in the equation.
Anything that takes 3 turns to get rolling and doesn't kill the opponent on turn 4 had better have a lot of permission or disruption or it is going to be DoA.
I definitely shit my pants a little bit when you said you were running the same deck, and I shit them a little bit more when you said who you were.
Anyway, ignoring FoolofaTook, I didn't feel like I was at a disadvantage going into the room. Sure, the top 8 was a bunch of OmniShow, but that shouldn't preclude me from putting up a decent showing. I don't think I necessarily made any play mistakes. I just think that it wasn't my turn to shine.
Like, round one I played against Maverick and was on the draw. Looked at my opening hand. Had turn one Chalice of the Void and an Abrupt Decay. Pretty fukken sweet, right? So, he drops a Deathrite Shaman turn one. I cast my Chalice figuring I can deal with whatever threat he pumps out on his next turn. Pass the turn, he plays a Cavern of Souls naming Human, a Mother of Runes, and a Sylvan Library.
...
And it was basically just more of that. I felt like I played well, but too often my opponents got the nuts and I didn't, and it certainly didn't help to play against my absolute worst match-up twice.
Aaanyway, I continue to be especially happy with the list.
The "major" point of contention is still Horizon Canopy. I left it in for this weekend because I didn't want to change it up without seeing how its replacement would do, but I kept track of its performance this weekend. While it by no means hurt to have Horizon Canopy, I ended up activating its ability (get ready) once over the course of an eight round tournament, and once I had I realized I didn't even need to. I realize that one tournament is not a great metric and that various one-ofs in the deck might have put up a similar frequency of results, and I can't say how much more effective something like Cabal Pit would have been (which is an all-time favorite card of mine), but I do know that there's no reason at this point to not meddle with Horizon Canopy and the third flex Bayou.
Something else I've been trying to pay attention to, and this makes me somewhat sad because I just picked up a Russian copy, is the Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.
Let me first state that I fucking love Ancient Grudge. Fucking. Love. Ancient Grudge. But it's become all too apparent that it's very difficult to actually achieve value with Ancient Grudge. Nearly every deck will freak out as soon as they see Knight and Loam and pack every bit of graveyard hate from Rest in Peace to Yixlid Jailer and, when they do, Ancient Grudge just becomes Shatter.
I do still feel the slot is needs to be dedicated to a like effect though. I've always felt Krosan Grip is too clunky, so Wear//Tear is probably what I'll be looking to try out. I realize it won't have too many opportunities to get a two-for-one, but I feel the option of versatility would be worth it.
Kronberger Special
25*Land
1*Forest
2*Barren Moor
3*Bayou
2*Grove of the Burnwillows
1*Horizon Canopy
1*Karakas
1*Maze of Ith
1*Savannah
2*Scrubland
1*Taiga
2*Tranquil Thicket
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
12*Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Scavenging Ooze
1*Gaddock Teeg
4*Knight of the Reliquary
1*Qasali Pridemage
1*Dryad Arbor
23*Other Spells
3*Liliana of the Veil
3*Punishing Fire
2*Green Sun's Zenith
3*Life from the Loam
1*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
4*Chalice of the Void
4*Mox Diamond
Sideboard
1*Containment Priest
3*Ethersworn Canonist
1*Spirit of the Labyrinth
1*Thrun, the Last Troll
4*Leyline of the Void
1*Thoughtseize
1*Toxic Deluge
1*Ancient Grudge
2*Golgari Charm
Ditto not feeling bad about the deck. Despite my dismal showing, I think the deck is fine and would play it at a big tourney again. This deck is far from defenseless and is capable of being quite unfair. Variance happens and is what you sign up for when you don't run Brainstorm & Friends, and I still have a lot of room to improve my play as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Which deck did you play against twice? Burn?
I think the 3rd Bayou is legit, certainly more so than the 2nd Taiga. Even with it I still sometimes don't have BB for Liliana, which came up a few times this weekend. I've always played a 5th fetch for this purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Krosan Grip is one of my pet cards but I swear its actually good. It is super versatile, easy to cast, and Split Second is unreal. I'm fine with Wear // Tear never being a two-for-one but it uses the two splashiest colors, Tear won't work through Chalice on 1, and it can be countered by spells.
For anyone who cares, I played this:
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Treetop Village
2x Barren Moor
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
3x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Dark Confidant
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
SB 4x Leyline of the Void
SB 3x Ethersworn Canonist
SB 2x Golgari Charm
SB 1x Toxic Deluge
SB 1x Thrun, the Last Troll
SB 1x Gaddock Teeg
SB 1x Reclamation Sage
SB 1x Phyrexian Revoker
SB 1x Krosan Grip
From what I can gather the 4c loam list is a bit "closed", beside a couple flex slot (1 creature, manabase and 1 slot that can be anything, including land). My question now, and what I will begin to test this week is Is there a true advantage to play 4c loam vs Junk loam.
From what I can gather, losing red is losing the pf. Red does not give a lot of sideboard options that we truly need IMO.
The list I am going to test is the following:
2x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Cabal Pit
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
4x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tarmogoyf
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Sylvan Library
3x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Engineered Plague
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Golgari Charm
1x Krosan Grip
4x Meddling Mage
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Tundra
Pros:
More stable manabase
Mostly the same shell
Cons:
Loss of Punishing Fire for the more aggro matchups
The sideboard is only for testing the possibility of a 4 color for meddling mage to help the combo matchup.
Will post feedback at the end of the week. Feel free to comment and say that my assessment is wrong :)
PS. Sorry about the english but I am dumb today
I was also able to play the deck two weeks ago at the first tournament of the magiccardmarket series in Rome. 200 players showed up and i finished 20th going 6-2.
A short summary of my matchups:
Lost to Infect and UR Delver (Price of Progress is a good card :( )
Won against: Infect, MUD, Burn, Dark Depths Combo, Death and Taxes and 12-Post.
Played a pretty stock list with three Thoughtseizes in the sideboard. They did impress me. I bring them in against any sort of combo and when i board out Chalice.
Pilhas, you really don't have to go as far as blue to have good combo matchups.
My current list has excellent matchups against combo decks that aren't mono-blue.
How combo saturated is your meta that you want 8 cards for it? Either way I've found Thalia to be on average stronger disruption than canonist or mage. Instead of just turning off a card or a line of play she usually does that as well as taxing the cantrips/answers that the opponent tries to deploy. That plus your mana denial can buy you multiple turns with which to find a second piece of hate to lock the game out or just draw more wastelands to do roughly the same.
Yes this is pretty bad against OmniTell which is the combo flavor of the month ATM but I've played Trinisphere(s) in the past to combat them. Both Thalia and the 3ball as well as canonist interact favorably with bounce spells which the opponent won't be able to cast in the S&T turn, whereas a single mage can't stop the gameplan and protect itself.
Again, if your meta is really that combo heavy then maybe you want to go down on Pfire and (real) removal spells, but I think on average the red splash does a lot against the tempo/midrange/creature decks in the format and is also a way to close the game out against control if something went wrong in the .
schniggaz I'd be interested to know how the infect games went.
The thing about Thalia is that it hurts us quite a bit, although it is still fine I prefer canonist because our 1 card per turn is usually more powerful than theirs
Thalia for sure hurts us, but our mana base is much more robust so we have the advantage of casting spells better through her, compounding her effect with other mana denial, and having a 2/1 body on the board.
Canonist is fine at doing her job, but she won't stop an ANT player in possession of 2 fetch lands from decaying her on your end step and going off.
Canonist also matters less against a lot of the combo decks like sneak & show or (manaless)dredge where they only actually need to resolve 1 spell. She is better against elves (if you decide not to play other cards for that matchup) but I find Thalia more versatile in that I can board her in against other decks with weak manabases or mana intensive plays like miracles or burn and have her function just fine in that role too.
Edit: In order to cast 2 cantrips through Thalia the opponent needs 4 mana. That is the point where the "precombo" disruption of canonist becomes stronger. This is if we ignore the fact that the opponent can play a spell on their turn and one on ours
just managed to 3-0-1 at the today's tornament with schniggaz's 61 from 108 page (dd combo, single ds, thrun, 6 fetches)
sideboard looks like these :smile::
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Jund Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Plague
played contra Grixis Tezz 1:1 (thoughtseizes were good in this match), TA 2:1, UWR Delver 2:1, UB OmniTell 2:0 (won the first game with a mull to 4 on the draw, lol :tongue:)
Niklas, what did you cut for 3 thoughtseizes in your sideboard?
thanks in advance!
Woo! Got the namesake representing the Thoughtseize!Quote:
Originally Posted by schniggaz
I love the one I have and tried going up to two (not enough room in the sideboard), but I don't know how I'd feel about going up to three. Especially since I rarely find myself actually boarding out Chalice of the Void.
Also, I've been chatting it over with a few friends and while the consensus both in theory and in practice is that Wear//Tear is by far the better card in general, it's agreed that Krosan Grip is necessary so long as OmniShow is a relevant part of the meta.
As I said above, I tested the version without the red and...... shelved it. God I missed my punishing fires.
The change had its pros though, It made me rework my manabase so that its more consistent, and made me rework the sideboard also.
The three cards I am testing right now are Garruk Relentless -> in place of the third Liliana and Tarmogoyf -> In place of the random slot(Vindicate/Dreams/etc..).
Been very happy with the Goyf against combo, gave an extre pressure that I believe was needed.
Now if I can just find room for the 3rd Zenith....
Yeah, I mean, I can't really say that Punishing Fire is one of the best cards in the deck considering the "threat"-density of the deck, but it's fairly safe to say that Punishing Fire is absolutely indispensable. And, even though it is the only red effect in the deck, it's not exactly true that adding another color taxes the mana base too heavily. True, it does prevent us from running more utility effects and sometimes from getting out Liliana consistently on the third land drop, but I feel that's a very small price to pay.
Has anybody tried scroll rack? I am currently running 3 confidant + 2 sylvan library and trying scroll rack as the 2nd library.
The interaction with loam seems really profitable, EoT put 3 land on top, draw 3 and loam on draw phase.
I only been testing in solitary mode, can only test at weekends, but any feedback on being tried before would be appreciated.
Though it would be cool to "draw" three every turn with Scroll Rack and Life from the Loam, I think the fact that Scroll Rack is completely worthless without an active Life from the Loam makes it not a practical plan.