[Primer/Deck] Pox

Played a small local tornament yersterday night with this list:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Dark Ritual
2 Cursed Scroll
2 The Rack
1 The Abyss
1 Crucible of World
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole

SIDE:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spinning Darkness
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge


Match 1 vs Burn, 0-2: he punches me a little with some creature then burns me both game. I sided in the spinning darkness but there's little a could do. How do you approach this matchup?

Match 2 vs... Bye: honestly, the worst thing it can happen you when you want to test a new deck T_T

Match 3 vs Miracle, 2-1: game 1 I win with the rack and discard, game 3 he enstablishes counterlock quick and I draw a couple of lands too much to keep me in the game, game 3 discard smallpox and land destruction win.

Match 4 vs Shardless BUG, 0-2: he begins suspending ancestral vision, I discard his hand with touraches and when vision resolves I smallpox his goyf (basically negating the vision). However in top deck he play land, land goyf, shardless into goyf GG. Game 2 I begin with a swamp and 2 colorless lands, thoughtseize, inquisition, innocent blood and liliana. I fail to see a second black source while drawing all double black spells...

Changes I plan to the deck:
-2 the rack, -1 thoughtseize, -1 inquisition
+1 hymn, +1 dark ritual, +2 ???

I would like to play something with an impact on the game because in topdeck mode this deck kind of sucks, maybe Empty the Pits? We don't really depend on the grave and can be fuelled with dark rituals which, in late game, are dead draws.

I'm open to your criticism.

Tom Ross wrote that it was important to draw first when playing pox. That is: to always choose going second.
Comments on that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

Played a small local tornament yersterday night with this list:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

3 Dark Ritual
2 Cursed Scroll
2 The Rack
1 The Abyss
1 Crucible of World
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole

SIDE:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spinning Darkness
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge


Match 1 vs Burn, 0-2: he punches me a little with some creature then burns me both game. I sided in the spinning darkness but there's little a could do. How do you approach this matchup?

Match 2 vs... Bye: honestly, the worst thing it can happen you when you want to test a new deck T_T

Match 3 vs Miracle, 2-1: game 1 I win with the rack and discard, game 3 he enstablishes counterlock quick and I draw a couple of lands too much to keep me in the game, game 3 discard smallpox and land destruction win.

Match 4 vs Shardless BUG, 0-2: he begins suspending ancestral vision, I discard his hand with touraches and when vision resolves I smallpox his goyf (basically negating the vision). However in top deck he play land, land goyf, shardless into goyf GG. Game 2 I begin with a swamp and 2 colorless lands, thoughtseize, inquisition, innocent blood and liliana. I fail to see a second black source while drawing all double black spells...

Changes I plan to the deck:
-2 the rack, -1 thoughtseize, -1 inquisition
+1 hymn, +1 dark ritual, +2 ???

I would like to play something with an impact on the game because in topdeck mode this deck kind of sucks, maybe Empty the Pits? We don't really depend on the grave and can be fuelled with dark rituals which, in late game, are dead draws.

I'm open to your criticism.

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@burn
-this is really a tough matchup, especially since you're also running thoughtseizes which are bad against them..if you feel that spinning darkness ain't enough then a couple of void or sphere effects can help you against them, a 1st turn trinisphere followed by land destruction sometimes makes it very difficult for them to come back while you beat face with the factories..take note that in an emergency situation, you can cast spinning darkness on one of your factories to save you from a lethal direct damage spell..


@miracles
-miracles is a tough matchup so congrats on winning this one..pithing needle on top slows them, though they still have jace for you to worry about..try to keep them off 4 mana as best as you can..its very difficult to win against them once jace hits the battlefield..i'm curious why you aren't running needles in your sideboard, it helps a lot against decks we have a difficult time against..more discard spells post board help..


@shardless
-ancestral visions really hurts our deck, i remember reid duke once ran bottled cloister to match bug's card advantage..i like boarding out my rituals against bug for more business spells/removal..



i personally haven't tried the leyline of the void/helm of obedience package..how's it working for you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Tom Ross wrote that it was important to draw first when playing pox. That is: to always choose going second.
Comments on that?

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I suppose that The Boss plays a Rack version of the deck (ins't him?), in this case I think the reasoning is to give your opponent less draw steps possible. You conceide him the first play but in theory this plays in your strategy:

Opponent begins
Turn1 - he plays a land and a 1 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 5 (him) / 7 (you)
Turn2 - you draw a card, play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 4 / 6
Turn3 - he plays a land and a 2 mana drop; if he doesn't play anything is good anyway because he is not applying pressure and we can handle cards in hand. Total hand sizes = 3 / 6
Turn4 - you play a land and a discard; if you have a rack to play along you start doing damage. Total hand sizes = 2 / 5
...

You begin
Turn1 - you play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 6 (him) / 5 (you)
Turn2 - he draws, plays a land and a 1 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 5 / 5
Turn3 - you play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 4 / 4
Turn4 - he plays a land and a 2 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 3 / 4
...

In the second scenario the Pox player has a very little advantage in cards in hand, but the opponent has 2 drops. In the first scenario the pox player has double the oppoent's cards in hand, so he can manage those drops and go on the offensive.

Obviously this is a simple case, I'm not doing any probabilty math, but I think this is the reason behind Tom's words.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

@burn
-this is really a tough matchup, especially since you're also running thoughtseizes which are bad against them..if you feel that spinning darkness ain't enough then a couple of void or sphere effects can help you against them, a 1st turn trinisphere followed by land destruction sometimes makes it very difficult for them to come back while you beat face with the factories..take note that in an emergency situation, you can cast spinning darkness on one of your factories to save you from a lethal direct damage spell..


@miracles
-miracles is a tough matchup so congrats on winning this one..pithing needle on top slows them, though they still have jace for you to worry about..try to keep them off 4 mana as best as you can..its very difficult to win against them once jace hits the battlefield..i'm curious why you aren't running needles in your sideboard, it helps a lot against decks we have a difficult time against..more discard spells post board help..


@shardless
-ancestral visions really hurts our deck, i remember reid duke once ran bottled cloister to match bug's card advantage..i like boarding out my rituals against bug for more business spells/removal..



i personally haven't tried the leyline of the void/helm of obedience package..how's it working for you?

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I think leyline is one of the best, if not the best, anti grave card, especially in a black deck that runs dark rituals. After setting my mind on Leyline playing a couple of helms as an additional wincon is not mandatory but just something to test.
Just remember that helm is good even alone in certain matchups like miracle (yesterday the miracle player countered my helm even if I didn't have leyline in play)

I see however that maybe my side isn't well build: can you advise my on some "standard" 15s?


Thank you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Tom Ross wrote that it was important to draw first when playing pox. That is: to always choose going second.
Comments on that?

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Maybe in Modern 8-rack lists, I think it absolutely wrong for legacy(especially GB Pox). Being on the play makes Smallpox so much more potent, and that is usually our best card. It is interesting in theory, they don't draw a card turn 1 and we get to draw which is one less card we need to answer and 1 card sooner they are hellbent. But in my experience Pox players will lose far more often to early pressure rather than early card advantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Targeted always.

Targeted can't hit lands but Hymn can. If you Hymn first you risk missing with your Targeted purely because you hit the same cards with hymn. If you Target First you can also see if it's worth hymning yet; or wait until a little bit later. The odd opponent who plays Baloth, Dredge, Reanimator, or Loam or something also won't get a free win off of you feeding him.

Not only that, but if you want lucky-land-screws you want to minimize the number of non-lands in their hand; again Target First gives you the better chance here.

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This is my reasoning for leading with targeted discard, it guarantees they are losing 3 cards, can clear the path for hymn and bait out counter-magic. I also play GB pox so I am only doing this on turn 3 or later.

For a Mono Black Pox with Dark Rituals I would make the argument that leading with the Hymn is better when playing on one of the first 2 turns. Leaving the targeted discard for last lets you make the most informed decision on what to take and this is more important when they have a full grip they would have on turn 1. For example if they have a hand of 2 lands, 2 Show and Tell, Griselbrand, Emrakul. Targeted discard into hymn is worse because if you take a creature they could be left with Show and Tell other Creature after Hymn. If you Hymn first, unless they pitch 2 lands you can take the other piece (2nd creature or 2nd Show and Tell)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I see however that maybe my side isn't well build: can you advise my on some "standard" 15s?


Thank you!

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uhm, depends on the kinds of decks you're preparing for..
my sideboard is constantly in flux but
i would always include at least 2 pithing needles..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rlesko

I don't see how hymn first is better value in a vacuum? See below for my thoughts exactly.

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Maximizing the odds of getting land out of a Hymn is not the relevance to be focusing on. Unless our opponent is playing Lands or some other atypical strategy, then the focus should be on business spells capable of affecting us. Even without looking yet, we can assume cards in their hand will have a natural priority of values, cards we would take first, second and so on with the targeted discard. So when we cast the targeted discard first, we will always be taking the same card, then cleaning up with Hymn. By casting Hymn first, we have the possibility of hitting the high value cards, and then picking the best of what remains to cripple them based on what is left. Even if we do not hit the high value cards, we can always get it with the targeted discard. So worst case of Hymn first is just as good as Hymn second.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I think leyline is one of the best, if not the best, anti grave card, especially in a black deck that runs dark rituals. After setting my mind on Leyline playing a couple of helms as an additional wincon is not mandatory but just something to test.
Just remember that helm is good even alone in certain matchups like miracle (yesterday the miracle player countered my helm even if I didn't have leyline in play)

I see however that maybe my side isn't well build: can you advise my on some "standard" 15s?


Thank you!

---

The most prevalent weaknesses in Pox are GY usage, Creature Overload, and Non-creature/non-land permanents. For the standard 'cover your ass' Sideboard, it'd be...

2 Pithing Needle
2/3 Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg/Plague Boiler (yikes)
4/3 Engineered Plague
2/3 Ensnaring Bridge
2/3 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate

Extirpate also has the hilarious ability to ruin SDT Miracles, but you need to be able to read your enemy well. I wouldn't consider Burn a 'weakness' per se and call it more of a Combo deck. I run Contamination to shut it off, and it does so very well. Still testing some ideas though.

As I thought, Black Vise is actually perfect for a pure land killing deck, Pox is a kill 'everything' deck so it doesn't work. Rack works even with Sinkhole/Wasteland since Liliana of the Veil is so sexy. She's in every Pox deck I can remember that's won so any card that dis-synergizes with the Mind-phucking Goddess is now a no-go for me... :( And I really liked Black Vise too *sniffle*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Maximizing the odds of getting land out of a Hymn is not the relevance to be focusing on. Unless our opponent is playing Lands or some other atypical strategy, then the focus should be on business spells capable of affecting us. Even without looking yet, we can assume cards in their hand will have a natural priority of values, cards we would take first, second and so on with the targeted discard. So when we cast the targeted discard first, we will always be taking the same card, then cleaning up with Hymn. By casting Hymn first, we have the possibility of hitting the high value cards, and then picking the best of what remains to cripple them based on what is left. Even if we do not hit the high value cards, we can always get it with the targeted discard. So worst case of Hymn first is just as good as Hymn second.

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I don't agree, there is upside to hitting lands, yes, but thats somewhat of a strawman argument on your part- you ignored the rest of what Tescrin said.

1. In the scenario you described you're ignoring the fact that your Hymn might not resolve. This is a very real concern in a blue dominated format like legacy where daze, spell pierce, and spell snare are rampant. By leading with a Inquisition you increase the chance your Hymn resolves.

2. You've ignored the fact that your 1cc spell is conditional. Assuming your 1cc spell is Inquisition of Kozilek, there is a nonzero chance you won't be any to take anything from your opponents hand, or be forced to take a sub optimal card. Jace, Force of Will, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Batterskull, Dig Through Time before it was banned, etc. Assuming this is happening on turn 3, lets imagine your opponent has a 4 card hand. You hymn first. You get 2 cards. After you cast Inquisition, you become aware of a Jace/Sneak attack about to be slammed next turn. Damn, looks like you lost because if you cast inquisition first, there is a 66% chance you get the 4 cmc spell in their hand.

So here is where I am after further testing:


2 Maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
13 Swamp
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Black Vise
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Trinisphere
4 Dark Ritual
2 Rancid Earth
4 Encroach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Braids, Cabal Minion
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Helm of obedience


The deck is really nice to play with. Land is very hard before boarding (and even after that) but apart from this very specific MU, I don't fear any other MU right now.
The deck can be slow as hell but the lock is real.

Feel no fear !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rlesko

I don't agree, there is upside to hitting lands, yes, but thats somewhat of a strawman argument on your part- you ignored the rest of what Tescrin said.

1. In the scenario you described you're ignoring the fact that your Hymn might not resolve. This is a very real concern in a blue dominated format like legacy where daze, spell pierce, and spell snare are rampant. By leading with a Inquisition you increase the chance your Hymn resolves.

2. You've ignored the fact that your 1cc spell is conditional. Assuming your 1cc spell is Inquisition of Kozilek, there is a nonzero chance you won't be any to take anything from your opponents hand, or be forced to take a sub optimal card. Jace, Force of Will, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Batterskull, Dig Through Time before it was banned, etc. Assuming this is happening on turn 3, lets imagine your opponent has a 4 card hand. You hymn first. You get 2 cards. After you cast Inquisition, you become aware of a Jace/Sneak attack about to be slammed next turn. Damn, looks like you lost because if you cast inquisition first, there is a 66% chance you get the 4 cmc spell in their hand.

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1. Don't be ignorant that my argument was prefaced under the modifier "in a vacuum". I stated in my original post that if I anticipate a Spell Perice or a Daze or any other effect that would threaten the Hymn, then the safer play would be to play Hymn after targeted discard. You quoted me saying this.

2. If the targeted discard is conditional, then it's conditional, and you take the same risk of whiffing on a 4 card hand as a 2 card hand. The fact that it is played represents that the conditions are an acceptable trade off to the effect. Using outlying examples isn't healthy advice. Many scenarios can be written to prove and disprove whatever it is that you want. The truth is that, taking their best card from a 7 card hand is weaker than taking their best card from a 5 card hand. Both times you are taking their best card. By casting Hymn first, you are making a more informed decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

1. Don't be ignorant that my argument was prefaced under the modifier "in a vacuum". I stated in my original post that if I anticipate a Spell Perice or a Daze or any other effect that would threaten the Hymn, then the safer play would be to play Hymn after targeted discard. You quoted me saying this.

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I just reread your post and I still don't see any mention of effects threatening the resolution of the Hymn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

2. If the targeted discard is conditional, then it's conditional, and you take the same risk of whiffing on a 4 card hand as a 2 card hand. The fact that it is played represents that the conditions are an acceptable trade off to the effect.

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Not following your math here at all. If an opponent has 4 cards in hand I have a much smaller chance of whiffing with inquisition than a 2 card hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Using outlying examples isn't healthy advice. Many scenarios can be written to prove and disprove whatever it is that you want. The truth is that, taking their best card from a 7 card hand is weaker than taking their best card from a 5 card hand. Both times you are taking their best card. By casting Hymn first, you are making a more informed decision.

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My examples aren't outlying. Its just the fact of the matter that there are valuable spells cmc 4 or greater in Legacy, and if you're going to cast both spells in the same turn, there just simply isn't a reason to go Hymn -> IoK. Without knowing the content of their hand when you cast Hymn, you have no idea if you've hit important cards or not.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-15-pox-loam/

link to my current build I will probably be playing this weekend, any obvious match up you think Will be played vs that may not be answered by
my current sideboard. (yes i know it's basically 13 one of answers but I like the versatility of being able to bring in alot of cards vs basically any match-up)

I gone up in removal since the banning of dig through time since I had SnT as a bad match-up. But now I should be able to concentrate less on locking opponents out through one and it should be enough just to stabilize.

I excpect the tournament to be alot of stoneblade, miracles and storm with about 60+ people

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

2. If the targeted discard is conditional, then it's conditional, and you take the same risk of whiffing on a 4 card hand as a 2 card hand. The fact that it is played represents that the conditions are an acceptable trade off to the effect. Using outlying examples isn't healthy advice. Many scenarios can be written to prove and disprove whatever it is that you want. The truth is that, taking their best card from a 7 card hand is weaker than taking their best card from a 5 card hand. Both times you are taking their best card. By casting Hymn first, you are making a more informed decision.

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There are several things wrong with this.

2a: As said above, if an opponent has 4 cards in hand, it is mathematically deterministic to say that it has a higher probability of containing a card of any subset your discard can hit. There is no way to argue against that without being actually wrong.

2b: You seem to think that the random probability is the same before and after the targeted discard. Leaving aside the obvious land problem, let's say they have 5 cards and you need to hit 2 of them to win:

EDIT: Fixed probabilities in Bold. This example was incorrect, see later post for correct examples and an explanation:
-Targeted discard first Hymn second gives you a 50% chance of doing this.
-Hymn first Targeted second gives you a 70% chance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toxboy

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-15-pox-loam/

link to my current build I will probably be playing this weekend, any obvious match up you think Will be played vs that may not be answered by
my current sideboard. (yes i know it's basically 13 one of answers but I like the versatility of being able to bring in alot of cards vs basically any match-up)

I gone up in removal since the banning of dig through time since I had SnT as a bad match-up. But now I should be able to concentrate less on locking opponents out through one and it should be enough just to stabilize.

I excpect the tournament to be alot of stoneblade, miracles and storm with about 60+ people

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Any reason for only 3 Verdant Catacombs?

PS: loved your Lille list...revamped my loam pox list to reflect yours a couple weeks ago.

Sold my Chrome moxes today. They really are not useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jroharo

Any reason for only 3 Verdant Catacombs?

PS: loved your Lille list...revamped my loam pox list to reflect yours a couple weeks ago.

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The sideboard was transscripted incorrectly so some 1 miss there, I was in fact playing 1 engineered plague instead of explosives (though I thought about the explosives alot) there, the reason for 3 verdants is that i had 3 in the original list because I only owned 3 at the time and must have missed to update it on tapped out

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Depends if I think they have Daze or Spell Peirce.

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But hey, bliss right?

With regards to whiffing on Inquisition to the point that it matters, if we're talking about scenarios relative to Pox where our opponent is threatening a 4 cost card, then we've already blown the game. Conjecture and theorize all you want, but in the regards of Applied Legacy, the number of nonland cards with converted mana cost of 3 or less versus the number of those not isn't a close comparison. Sure, maybe they're playing Lands or Manaless Dredge or MUD or something where all choices are either bad or nonexistent. Or, maybe more likely they're playing the gobs and gobs of other decks that top out at CMC 3, whose entire deck is legal for Inquisition. So yeah there's a nonzero chance you Hymn and then after see only lands. But at that point we're well beyond significant digits.

As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. All Hymn is is card advantage. Unless they have two or less cards, you should never plan around Hymn getting anything that you want it to, because it might not. For example, you must assume using Liliana's +1 will result in them discarding the best choice they have, and since this isn't fucking EDH, their best choice is also your worst choice. This is why we don't play Dash Hopes or Temporal Extortion. Apply the same logic to any targeted discard. Your best choice will be the most crippling to them. Hymn's random selection places it squarely neutral in advantage between you and your opponent. It will offer the best outcome for both players an equal number of times. The whole reason it's played is because it's card advantage.

So as I stated before, in a vacuum, which means for those uncertain: without concern for countermagic or the opponent playing Nephilim Tribal or some bullshit; you will have a more educated choice by playing the Hymn first, thereby selecting the best choice of a smaller pool of options with the targeted discard. You will better guide the play of your opponent to an end which benefits you the most. Playing Hymn second, all you achieve is a hedged bet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

With regards to whiffing on Inquisition to the point that it matters[...]

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What on earth are you arguing here? My argument applies just as much to Thoughtseize as a IoK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. [...]
The whole reason it's played is because it's card advantage.

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Yes. And if you whiff with a 1-mana spell you just accrued needless card disadvantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

So as I stated before, in a vacuum, which means for those uncertain: without concern for countermagic or the opponent playing Nephilim Tribal or some bullshit; you will have a more educated choice by playing the Hymn first, thereby selecting the best choice of a smaller pool of options with the targeted discard. You will better guide the play of your opponent to an end which benefits you the most. Playing Hymn second, all you achieve is a hedged bet.

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:/
Let me put up some examples of where you are right and wrong.

Proof 1:
Imagine the opponent has 3 cards, 1 land.
Thoughtseize into hymn? You hit all three.
Hymn into thoughtseize? 33% Chance to whiff.


Proof 2:
Imagine the opponent has 4 cards, 1 non-land
Thoughtseize into hymn? You hit the card and you hit 2 lands.
Hymn into thoughtseize? 50% Chance to whiff.



Now, the counter examples (including my now corrected post before) have to do with requiring yourself to hit X cards in Y cards to win. This is because the ratio of positive hits to negative hits changes in a bad way if you TS first.

Counter 2:
Need to hit a specific 2 in 6:
Hymn First: 60% success
TS first: 40% success


So I will amend my statement:
If going for raw card advantage (fair decks most of the time) you want to Hymn Second.
If playing against Combo, you want to Hymn First.


EDIT: This was edited several times as a few of the maths were incorrect, things were rephrased accordingly.

Guidance on Inquisition wasn't directed at you, so cool that ego down. rlesko had the comments on Inquisition.

Once again, a successful Hymn is when you net +1 card advantage. Anything beyond that is gravy. So stop trying to stretch it into some super Duress or some shit. It's not. As far as casting Inquisition and seeing nothing but lands? That isn't a failure in any game I've played.

Let's say the have a 7 card hand, all are legal targets and all are relevant to you. If you cast the targeted first, you need to pick the best card from a field of 7. Then Hymn has a 1/3rd chance of taking the next best cards, leaving your opponent's next play up to chance. They get 4 cards to start their turn. If you Hymn first, you have a 2/7th chance of taking their best cards, then have the ability to take the best card from a field of 5. You are able to direct their line of play as best as you are able. They get the same number of cards at the start of their turn. So to the end of maximizing strategy, getting the most out of our targeted discard is the deciding factor. That's the whole point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Let's say the have a 7 card hand, all are legal targets and all are relevant to you. If you cast the targeted first, you need to pick the best card from a field of 7. Then Hymn has a 1/3rd chance of taking the next best cards, leaving your opponent's next play up to chance. They get 4 cards to start their turn. If you Hymn first, you have a 2/7th chance of taking their best cards, then have the ability to take the best card from a field of 5. You are able to direct their line of play as best as you are able. They get the same number of cards at the start of their turn. So to the end of maximizing strategy, getting the most out of our targeted discard is the deciding factor. That's the whole point.

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The whole point of the question is that there is no right answer and that the play is dependent on so many things(turn, cards in opponent hand, cards in your hand, opponent deck, etc).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. All Hymn is is card advantage.

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Hymn to Tourach is a pure card advantage card, but we play it because it can act like anything from; better than 2 thoughtseize to just mind rot. Casting Mind Rot will never take there best card if they have more than 2 cards in hand, Hymn will take there best card a statistically significant amount of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Once again, a successful Hymn is when you net +1 card advantage. Anything beyond that is gravy. So stop trying to stretch it into some super Duress or some shit. It's not. As far as casting Inquisition and seeing nothing but lands? That isn't a failure in any game I've played.

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If your 1 mana discard has no targets you have now spent 2 cards (hymn, 1 cmc discard) to take 2 cards (2 from hymn) and have therefore lost out on potential card advantage.

Playing Hymn first then targeted discard will leave you with the best chances of taking their best cards, assuming there is a target for the 1 mana discard and both spells resolve. There is a non-zero chance that either they counter a spell or your 1 mana discard has no valid targets post hymn.

So for me, if I believe that both spells will resolve and that the targeted discard will have a target, casting Hymn to Tourach first then targeted discard is the better play. (Example your opponent goes turn 1 basic plains, mother of runes; you go turn 1 land, dark ritual, hymn, 1 cmc discard. against Death and Taxes with 5 cards in hand I assume that Inquisition of Kozilek can hit post Hymn)

However I do not believe this to be the case in most scenarios I experience with my GB Pox, so I lead with targeted discard then Hymn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

...if I believe that both spells will resolve and that the targeted discard will have a target, casting Hymn to Tourach first then targeted discard is the better play.

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There it is. Thanks.

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)

The 'proper' scenario is opening turns, because everyone knows that sorcery speed Discard is useless late game. Turn 1 Inqusition, turn 2 hymn. Can someone prove to me (without using examples since enemy decks can be well, anything) why it would be better to wait till turn 3 to cast your 2 best discard spells? If you're going to cast Hymn first, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast your Inquisition. If you're alive by turn 4-5 casting discard spells that don't whiff, you're fighting a 'fair deck' and then at that point, it's anyone's game.

This is confusing lolz :laugh:

And when it comes to gathering information, Hymn does nothing really for that objective. Nothing can beat "reveal your hand". Nothing.

On the Contamination front, Akroan Horse is clunky and too expensive for the CMC. Ophiomancer, is da Godsend. Now if I can squeeze in the Dimir Machinations combo-lock, not a fan of the card disadvantage though, things could get much scarier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)

The 'proper' scenario is opening turns, because everyone knows that sorcery speed Discard is useless late game. Turn 1 Inqusition, turn 2 hymn. Can someone prove to me (without using examples since enemy decks can be well, anything) why it would be better to wait till turn 3 to cast your 2 best discard spells? If you're going to cast Hymn first, you have to wait till turn 3 to cast your Inquisition. If you're alive by turn 4-5 casting discard spells that don't whiff, you're fighting a 'fair deck' and then at that point, it's anyone's game.

This is confusing lolz :laugh:

And when it comes to gathering information, Hymn does nothing really for that objective. Nothing can beat "reveal your hand". Nothing.

On the Contamination front, Akroan Horse is clunky and too expensive for the CMC. Ophiomancer, is da Godsend. Now if I can squeeze in the Dimir Machinations combo-lock, not a fan of the card disadvantage though, things could get much scarier.

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ophiomancer is also a goyf deterrent..i hate trading my mishra's factories with my opponet's goyfs when i'm on defense and sometimes need to chump block..nether spirit is good in holding down goyfs but we run very few copies of it, mostly as a 1 or 2-of..
crucible of world's is also good against goyf decks since they make your factories more resilient..

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Holy crap.

Why would anyone wait to cast Inquisition of Kozilek? In a vacuum (no dark ritual, or other accel), if you don't Inquisition first, you die to that Blue Moon 1 shot kill from a combo deck. (Let's say you're on the play)
...
This is confusing lolz :laugh:

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It is a hypothetical question to spur a discussion on sequencing spells. The scenario is in no way encouraging waiting to play these cards it was just:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

So you have 3 mana, a targeted discard spell, and a Hymn to Tourach, what order do you play them in?

Could depend on turn and opponent deck and handsize. But I tend to lead with the targeted discard, but I am wondering your thoughts.

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It will most likely come up on turn 1 in mono black with a dark ritual. But I could be playing my GB Pox against delver and play turn 1 Inquisition into turn 2 smallpox(which gets dazed) and then turn 3 play IoK and Hymn. I could have also had a hand with 2 hymns and no Iok and drawn IoK on turn 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?

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May be clucky but it has some synergy with Crucible of Worlds, Entomb, and Ophiomancer but have you thought about Volrath's Stronghold?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

May be clucky but it has some synergy with Crucible of Worlds, Entomb, and Ophiomancer but have you thought about Volrath's Stronghold?

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I've tested the Stronghold before with 'regular creatures'. Nether Spirit, Crucible + Manlands I've found to be less mana intensive. Neither option needs "3 mana" to use. I'd rather pump the mana into Cursed Scroll to kill my foe or snipe his top decked weenies. Nether Spirit + Manlands need no mana to come back, which is vital in a deck that blows up its own lands.

Stronghold I think would work better in a Green Splash that has giant cheap creatures like Tarmogoyf and Tempting Wurm or even a Suspended Dirkwood Baloth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

i would like to try the contamination route, are you running or have you considered running entomb as a virtual copy of nether spirit to guarantee a sac fodder? at 1-2-ofs, the spirit feels a little clunky and unreliable..
i'm still brainstorming though since i haven't tried it yet but right now i'm considering
crucible of worlds, a singleton mutavault and entomb, etc..

can you show me the list your working on right now omni?

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8 (Win Conditions)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Ophiomancer

8 (Discard)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

8 (Land Destruction)
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole

9 (Pox FX )
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

4 (Planeswalkers)
4 Liliana of the Veil

3 (Support/Bombs)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dimir Machinations

20 (Mana/Land)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

15 (Sideboard)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void


Very small changes here and there. Dimir Machinations can grab any and all 'bomb' cards in my deck to setup the lock AND ruin enemy top decks. Entomb only gets the Spirit which if Extirpated/Extracted, does nothing. Transmuting into Ophiomancer blanks any GY hate they have to stop my Contamination. It also counts as Pox 2-3, Liliana 5-6, Contamination 3-4, etc.

Looking back, this deck list is extremely tight. Had to sideboard the Plague and cut the Night of Souls' Betrayal. Despite me calling this Contamination Pox, it's brought out games 2 and 3 in case my enemy happens to be Mono-B, but splash decks like BUG can't function without their Green [no Abrupt Decay on the Liliana] and if you Pithing the DRS, you also stop top decked Jaces dead in their tracks.

Sinkholes and Wastelands maybe redundant but again, if they have black spells, direct land kill still helps.

only 16 lands?

There are the Mishra's too, so it makes 20 lands.

Why don't a single Contamination main deck if you are building the deck to support it?

Contamination main deck runs the risk of possibly fighting a Mono-Black deck. In which case, you've wasted slots. Granted, maybe you're in an non-black meta, but still. It's a bomb card once you know what you're fighting, but performs poorly in multiples, or you can use it as time walks if you have space to run four. The Transmutes I'm testing to deal with consistency issues. I may be able to squeeze in a 3rd one, but I'm sure Dimir Machs is better as a top deck so 1-2 should suffice.

There's actually 24 lands in the deck, Wasteland, Mishra, Urborg is 12 lands. 12 Swamps. Snow-Covered because it's sexy like that. :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Contamination main deck runs the risk of possibly fighting a Mono-Black deck. In which case, you've wasted slots. Granted, maybe you're in an non-black meta, but still. It's a bomb card once you know what you're fighting, but performs poorly in multiples, or you can use it as time walks if you have space to run four. The Transmutes I'm testing to deal with consistency issues. I may be able to squeeze in a 3rd one, but I'm sure Dimir Machs is better as a top deck so 1-2 should suffice.

There's actually 24 lands in the deck, Wasteland, Mishra, Urborg is 12 lands. 12 Swamps. Snow-Covered because it's sexy like that. :laugh:

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I meant that you could put one Contamination from the side into the maindeck as a target for the transmutes: having access to Contamination game 1 can be good and a single copy shouldn't hinder too much your black matchups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

8 (Win Conditions)
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
1 Ophiomancer

8 (Discard)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

8 (Land Destruction)
4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole

9 (Pox FX )
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

4 (Planeswalkers)
4 Liliana of the Veil

3 (Support/Bombs)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dimir Machinations

20 (Mana/Land)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp

15 (Sideboard)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Contamination
4 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void


Very small changes here and there. Dimir Machinations can grab any and all 'bomb' cards in my deck to setup the lock AND ruin enemy top decks. Entomb only gets the Spirit which if Extirpated/Extracted, does nothing. Transmuting into Ophiomancer blanks any GY hate they have to stop my Contamination. It also counts as Pox 2-3, Liliana 5-6, Contamination 3-4, etc.

Looking back, this deck list is extremely tight. Had to sideboard the Plague and cut the Night of Souls' Betrayal. Despite me calling this Contamination Pox, it's brought out games 2 and 3 in case my enemy happens to be Mono-B, but splash decks like BUG can't function without their Green [no Abrupt Decay on the Liliana] and if you Pithing the DRS, you also stop top decked Jaces dead in their tracks.

Sinkholes and Wastelands maybe redundant but again, if they have black spells, direct land kill still helps.

---

Your list looks really good. It would be great to read about your contamination-plays.
Have you tried playing 1 Ensnaring Bridge main? Some decks cant handle it g1. (I would cut the big pox)

In your board I do miss some combo-hate (nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistence). I would cut 2 plagues for something else. :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EtwasSteIne

Your list looks really good. It would be great to read about your contamination-plays.
Have you tried playing 1 Ensnaring Bridge main? Some decks cant handle it g1. (I would cut the big pox)

In your board I do miss some combo-hate (nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistence). I would cut 2 plagues for something else. :-)

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Believe it or not, turn 1 Liliana off a Dark Ritual is all the combo hate you could possibly need. That or Inquisition Hymn off said dark ritual. I find combo hate much less necessary in the board outside weird ones like MUD ramping or Show and Tell. Ensnaring Bridge shuts off most of my own win conditions save Cursed Scroll so I'd only use it if I'm losing the creature war or Show and Tell hits and I need to stop Emrakul or Wurm Coil Engine, etc.

Contamination play is really quite simple. Stall to top deck mode, cast it when your enemy has no threats and you have a single recurring threat, and then win the game. The only real downside is Surgical Extraction or other mana-less GY hate like a weird Leyline of the Void in a non-black deck. But if Ophiomancer works in further testing, even your GY hate can't stop me. People will have to board in weird artifacts like Ratchet Bomb to function at all during an all B-mana drought.

Be advised the sideboard is for my meta, which is more mid rangy and has a few combo. Lots of token rushes to the face as well.

The mentioned Tom Ross list, which looks like legacy 8rack, is this the way to go now ? I'm new to the deck but i would like to build and play it more often. He showed that this deck can top8 in bigger tournaments

More likely he was over here looking for inspiration.

Finally I could attend in a tournament again.
Went 3-3, 35th of 58.
After a little playtesting on Saturday, I made some last minute changes to my deck, bringing 8 instead of 6 win conditions.
I wanted to try a more 'pure' pox list again. No fancy cards, just disruption and win conditions (and SDT Grin )

This is the list I played:
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Pox
3x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
2x Thoughtseize

1x Bloodghast
1x Nether Spirit

1x Cabal Pit
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

3x Liliana of the Veil

2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x The Rack

3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Toxic Deluge



First of all: my impressions.
The deck worked. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Disrupting early and heavy, softlocking with Liliana and/or Crucible Wastelock and eventually finding a win condition and ending the game.
Replacing a Liliana and a Sensei's Divining Top with two The Rack was a good decision.
What did I do wrong?
Bad sideboard. I constantly didn't know what to bring in, and what to replace. I should have brought Engineered Plagues and/or NoSB, and something against Burn like Spinning Darkness or Syphon Life.
Pithing Needle was great, Ratchet Bomb did some work, the rest either never came in, or performed underwhelming.

The matches:
Match 1, BUG-Delver, 0-2
Game 1:
He starts with a Bayou into Deathrite Shaman. I look at his hand with IoK seeing Liliana, Hymn to Tourach, Sylvan Library, Force of Will and USea. Here, on my first play I make my first mistake, leading to a loss.
I take his Liliana Frown I was afraid of her, because I know what she does when I play her. My brain didn't think this through.
Next turn he plays USea into Hymn, taking my Smallpox and a land. That Smallpox was crucial. I could not keep his creatures off the board after loosing that. Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler and another Deathrite Shaman beat me down.

Sideboarding: Well, I'm clueless after this loss. I think I bring in Toxic Deluge and Extirpate. I was pondering about Pithing Needle for Deathrite Shaman, but didn't know what to replace. Also, I should have enough removal to handle it without Needle. +2 Toxic Deluge, +4 Extirpate, -3 Sinkhole, -1 Hymn to Tourach, -2 Toughseize (I guess)
Game 2:
I start with IoK and see Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, Delver, Wasteland, Verdant catacombs and USea (I guess he mulliganed to 6). I take the Deathrite Shaman.
I handled his Delver with an Innocent Blood, and his Goyf with a Pox. After that, he still had gas, and I didn't. Took a beating again.

Match 2, BW-Tokens, 0-2
Meh. Tokens are no fun without Engineered Plague. I did manage to keep him mana screwed, but he eventually came back both games. But at least he was fun to play against Smile
I boarded in Rathed Bomb for Pox, be he broght a Needle for Lili, that also did well against my Bombs in play -.-

Match 3, Belcher, 2-0-1
He took a while for his decision to keep his hand. I hope he doesnt have the turn 1 kill, as he is on the play. He drops his hand, counts 7 mana, and points to his Charbelcher. Meh... I put my hand on my deck... and start counting... He has 6 mana Frown He offers a draw for that game, because he miscounted. I take it and start sideboarding (which he didn't think was appropriate)
+3 Ratched Bomb, +3 Pithing Needle, -3 Sinkhole, -3 X. Can't remember. I guess it was either Crucible and a Top or Innocent Blood.
Game 2 I start with Ratched Bomb and Pithing Needle. He drops 14 Goblins on turn 1. Turn 2 they beat me to 6 life, then I drop the bomb Grin I start killing him from there.
Game 3 He doesn't have a play turn 1. I IoK and take a Seething Song. Turn 3 I drop Liliana and follow with a Pox. He doen't recover.

Match 4, RW-Painter, 2-0
Game 1
I'm on the play, ans start with IoK. I see: Goblin Welder, Painter's Servant, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, 2 Fetchlands and something I can'd decipher because my handwriting sucks. I take his Welder.
Over to course of the game, he tries to keep a Painter in play, but fails to do so. I find Crucible, and wasteland lock him. He then tells me, he made a misplay. He could have played a Bloodmoon earlier, but played Ensnaring Bridge instead. I can't remember if that misplay was a deciding one.

Sidboard: +3 Pithing Needle, -3 Dunno. I need to start keeping track of that.
Much like game 1, but I locked him with Pithing Needle for Grindstone. Pox, Smallpox and Sinkhole keep him of off mana.

Match 5, Mono R Burn 0-2
Nothing to say here. I lose to burn preboard, and I have nothing in the sideboard. Both games where somewhat close, him being at 7 life game 1 and 4 life game 2. Spinning Darkness or Syphon Life could have made the difference.

Match 6, Esper Stoneblade, 2-0
The match that showed me Pox loves me, and I love Pox.
Both games went similar and very much how a game with Pox should go. Liliana and Sensei's Divining Top did most of the work, carrying me through the late game, and ensuring removal for his threats.
My opponent never had access to more than 3 mana, and always had to play from the top, one threat at a time.


I guess I could have played 5-1 with a better sideboard.
Overall I'm confident with my current list.
I guess Pox is a flex slot that can be any strong 3 drop thats affecting the board.
And I guess The Rack can be Cursed Scroll. I wanted to try The Rack again, because it allows using STD and playing the top deck while still dealing damage on 3 mana. They both are viable.
Bloodghast never showed itself, so it could have been a Nether Spirit.
I'm happy with the core of the list. Most hands I drew where good. I took 3 mulligans and was happy with the next 6 cards.

Sideboard should be something like this. Maybe even 1 Syphon Life main. I'd love to keep Ratched Bomb, but I can't find the space. It's faster than Engineered Plague against Goblin Tokens.
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void/Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Syphon Life