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I cant beleive people are actually considering squadren hawk....lol and disscussing dropping bob in this thread...lol....WACK!!!
That s a trip..I didnt get into legacy to play squadren hawks...What happens when they keep you off you equipment and stick a fatty what the hell is a squadren hawk gonna do...Its not all about card advantage people its card power...And hawk is weak....Bob is powerhouse he must be answered.....plus you run equip so he can be a threat...
even if they keep you off equipment you can drop 2-3 hawks a turn between vial and lands - and noone plays significant flyers in legacy...so they still put your opponent on a clock. If you didn't start playing legacy to play hawks that's fine...don't.
As for the dropping of bob - if you don't question everything the deck will stagnate...end of story.
3 hawks will put the opponent on like a 20 turn clock one ass kicker puts them back on top...And all you got is 3 turns to chump while you scramble to find something to answer with...I applaude the pushing developemental boundries but at the same time we are talking about a squadren hawk..The deck already has problems finishing without equipment and hawk would just compound the problem...Just my opinion....Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
First off, it's very hard to keep us off of equipment if we run 3-4 pieces plus 3-4 Stoneforge. Secondly, our finishers are limited by Bob and or the need to play around wasteland. Our options are really limited to Serra Avenger unless we dip to a third color - and if someone drops a goyf on t2 on the play and I have a hand full of land, Avenger, Sculler, Discard, Bob, Stonforge Mystic I'm simly going to loose. Even Avenger is a chump blocker against goyf.
and 4 1/1's isn't a 20 turn clock - it's a 5 turn clock - assuming you have -0- equipment and they haven't taken any damage..which is never the case. Also, pulling together a few turns with chump blockers can also give you several extra draws with bob or you can simply draw answers or additional threats because the deck is loaded with answers (8 or 9 is pretty common).
I agree with deezy here, I don't think that gettin 3 poor Creatures in your hand after dropping 1 poor Creature in the important CC2-Section is the top play. If you want 1/1-Flyer, get Bitterblossom, spits out a flyer a turn for 1 Life and blocks ol' bad Tarmogoyf til the game is over (by the way never had this big problems with goyf, Deadguy has enough bullets for him).
thing is your gonna sink 8 mana and multiple turns into 4 1/1 flyers its just not good enough...atleast avenger is 3/3 and has vigilance...
And everyone one of your equipment can be shut down by a null rod so its really not that hard to keep you off it...That card is gonna see some board play due to the rise in midrange aggro decks trying to utilize equipment and affinity...
Ands its not gonna be easy to get rid of if theyre playing control or dissruption exspecially if you are one of the guys only running 3 vindicates...You need a real threat...
Hell my buddy mentioned spectral linx and even he is better than hawk...He has pro green and regenerates...
Ok...let me use a more common example.
You have a piece of equipment on the board and one creature in hand - your opponent has one piece of removal in hand.
If that one creature is not squadron Hawk you're f'd.
Squadron hawk forces your opponent to answer your creature AND your equipment. Avenger give your opponent a multitude of tempo advantages in addition to opeing up to leaving your equipment on the board doing nothing.
I understand that your argument is that people will now just answer the equipment instead...however, after one game of playing people will not know that they just have to answer the equipment, and also it's not like they can board out their removal since you still play bob and sculler and a nighthawk.
Aether Vial makes Squadron Hawk good...you have to look at them together, IMHO. When you are gettinga FREE 1/1 flyer that also fishes out 3 more FREE 1/1 flyers and puts them into your hand? Nice. Aether Vial is the cats ass in Deadguy, no doubt. Getting dudes for free and then getting 3 more in hand means you can be assured you have a dude to equip, which is what the deck needs: a dude to equip. It also has built in evasion, which Deadguy Ale has a problem with (Bob and Mystic both have this problem un-equipped.) Solid pick IMHO.
I'd be really interested to see what Stillmoon Cavalier could do for this deck. It has pro: B + W right out of the gate, can be equipped, and can be pumped (making it a great use of late-game mana) It has protection from all non-burn sources of removal in the format, including the 2 best (Swords/Path) and the runners up (Smother/Terminate). I'd be interested to see what he could do for the deck.
I also think that Jotun Grunt is a somewhat better choice than Serra Avenger. You can support it fairly weill by utilizing early game disruption (Wasteland, Thoughtsieze) and fetchlands, and it can control/profitable trade with other early threats (Wild Nacatl, sometimes Goyf, Goblin Lackey) Getting cards back into your deck via Grunt + fetchlandd shuffle means Bob can really give fresh options every turn. Not to mention it shrinks goyf to profitably block/trade and hoses threshold. Probably a better 'risky' play than Serra Avenger, but both seem decent.
Granted I haven't tested him at all, Squadron hawk just seems inferior to bitterblossom. Bitterblossom is a single turn, 1 time investment of 2 mana where squadron hawk is going to take 8 mana or 4 turns with vial. In a longer game bitterblossom will get you more 1/1 fliers and you can even have multiple bitterblossoms out at once but you will never get more than 4 squadron hawks.
Squadron hawk has the advantage of not putting all your eggs in one basket but I think if im going to cost 8 mana to get 4 power, I'd rather just invest my mana in a basket that will never drop (something that can't be removed easily). A 2 drop with shroud, or protection could fill this role but that will unlikely amount to 4 power. Thats why I think bitterblossom is probably a better option, vindicate and QPM are about the only MD enchantment hate most decks run so your chances of having a unanswered bitterblossom I think are pretty good.
I like the idea of having something that can poop out little guys that don't care about removal, but personally I think elspeth 1.0 is probably the best for the job, then bitterblossom seems like a really solid choice too and then squadron hawk is kinda meh.
Stillmoon is amazing against anything that isn't red. I used to run it as a three-of back when Reanimator was huge, and its versatility and power is truly underestimated. My cousin recently won a match he had actually fubared two turns earlier by topdecking a Stillmoon with my borrowed Pikula list against a single Elspeth (plus Token) on his opp's side. Pro-white and the turn-on-evasion really are strong.
The difference is that Bitterblossom is NOT a late game option. I have been playing Faeries in legacy for awhile now (trying anyways, lol) and Bitterblossom is ONLY good in the early game, or in the control matchup. Squadron Hawk, on the other hand, would be good at all stages of the game. Remember that I qualified my remark by saying that Aether Vial makes it good...it isn't good in a vaccuum. You need it to be free, and to be able to get the other 3 in hand for free. This thins your deck and allows you several opportunities to get an equipped offense going.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Also, I would say the amount of times I've had 2 Bitterblossoms on the table at once was very rare...it is usually just too risky. You usually want to land one and let it do it's thing while you concentrate on controlling the board or setting up your offense/equipments with your mana. Playing a second one is usually more risk than it's worth. That's just been my experience, take it or leave it.
@colo: yeah, Stillmoon is criminally underplayed ATM...
Bitterblossom has the additional advantage of not needing to be run as a 4 of. It has the downside of requiring 2 turns to be useful though.
The way I see it:
Bitterblossom:
Pros: Continuously generates creatures without mana investment. Does not need to be run as a 4x.
Cons: Costs life. Slower to come on line. Cannot be vialed in. Can be removed.
Squadron Hawk:
Pros: Immediately active. Reduces 2cmc in deck for Bob triggers. Can be vialed in. Potential great interactions with Grunt.
Cons: Drawing multiples is pretty bad. Costs mana/vial activations to play.
For all the anti-Hawk folk out there, I was surprised how well Hawk worked for me. I understand the arguments against Hawk because Hawk does look pretty silly. But I'm playing this pretty much as an equipment deck. In that case, Hawk shines. I do have some concerns about Bitterblossom chewing up life, but willing to give it a try. IMO, the best part about it is that I don't have to run it as a 4x. I'll probably try 3x Bitterblossom this week and see how it does.
squadron hawk forces you to overcommit to the board or get set back by disruption. you play 1, then draw 3. If you hold them, they will be hit with discard. if you play them out to get a fast clock you set yourself up for Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed shenanigans. squadron hawk is a 1/1 flyer for 1W that gets you 3 more 1/1 fliers for 3WWW. thats 4WWWW for FOUR 1/1 FLIERS. thats shit. play Ranger of Eos if you want C/A. you can at least go get 2 Moms that way.
aether vial it in!! then you get 4 free creatures!!!. have fun with that. I'll vial in my serra avengers and go to work on your face.
don't use the "but if i put equipment on it, and it doesn't get answered..." argument. thats shit too. ANY creature w/ at least 1 power unanswered will eventually win the game with no roadblocks.
bad squadron hawk is bad. 4 bad squadron hawks is still bad.
They're going to Therapy you? I'm ok with that. It means something else isn't getting Therapied. I like having Hawk in my hand for a Hymn.
It's really not as bad as you're making it out.
I'm not sure how Serra Avenger is any better against EE or Deed than Haw though...
Does anyone here run Vial AND Gatekeeper? I want both, but they're ugly together. :(
a single avenger is an equal clock to three squadron hawks. three for 1 vs 1 for 1. thats how it's better.
Hawk gives you consistency. So you have 3 hawks in hand...what makes you think you need to play them all? They are now in your hand rather than randomly in your library. If your board get's P-Deeded, guess what...you need a creature so you can get your strategy going again. Oh yeah, I have 3 just waiting in my hand...
Not to mention it's a seemingly 'bad' play...meaning it won't get Sword-ed or FoW-ed. If it DOES, well, that's great! Now your important spells can get into the game.
Deadguy Ale isn't a FAST deck...it's a TEMPO deck. You want to be disrupting your opponent and controlling the board in the early game, not worrying about how many threats you have. You eventually need a threat to equip and attack with...but your disruption buys you the time to do it.
That being said...I wouldn't leave Serra Avenger out. It's just really good when Vial-ed into play. I would have to agree that Serra Avenger is better (in a vacuum).
Bitterblossom vs. Squadron Hawk would probably have to be a meta-game call IMHO. Neither is better than the other, it's just what you need to accomplish in the majority of your matchups. Bob + Bitterblossom could net a pile of life loss that you do to yourself...in an aggro heavy metagame, this would be suicide, and not in a good 'Suicide Black' kind of way.
There wouldn't be a point. Gatekeeper's sac effect is dependant on it's kicker cost being paid. If you Vial it in, you're not paying the kicker hence no sac effect. Granted you could still run it with the plan of hard casting it, but the arguments against doing such in the past have been that while we reasonably can cast BBB, often times we're stuck on a Waste or need to fetch out white sources, so BBB isn't always something we want to see. Not that you couldn't run it, mind you, but unless your meta is rampant with Show and Tell I wouldn't suggest against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by InResponseForceofWill
Forlorn Egoist
If your metagame is rampant with Show and Tell/creature cheater type of decks, than Fleshbag Marauder or Diabolic Edict is probably what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Safety! good to see you cross boards...haha.
I do not like bitterblossom for multiple reasons, but this reason is an odd one that many may not think about - it gives you 4 more targets for K-Grip, and gives them more reasons to board it in. Right now your oppoenent may not even see equipment in game 1. Granted, most intelligent legacy players will understand that you play equipment, but if they don't see it in the first game they may question the effectiveness of brining in artifact/enchantment hate. It simply opens you up to loosing the sideboard war.
The other reasons include all the ones that have already been talked about: Vial, Slowness, Lifeloss...etc.. This card primarlilly falls victim to the same constraints as Serra and Grunt - it's a card that can't be utilized to change board position and gain tempo in the early part of the game - in a deck that is supposed to manage tempo. I'd never run Vial AND bitterblossom because you're adding 7 or 8 late game dead draws to the deck that already has issues finishing. If you're not running vial...you better be running Nighthawk and maindeck Sword of light and Shadow if you plan on playing this AND bob AND Thoughtseize - Just too suicide for my taste...my meta is way to aggro for this to work.
Stillmoon I feel is a fantastic creature that may have a place in the deck - but at the moment he would simply have to go in the Nighthawk spot if you don't play vial, and there is no room if you do play vial. Replacing a set of 2-drops with him simply raises the curve too much for Bob to stomach. Vindicates, Thoughtsiezes, and Nighthawks are enough Lightning bolts for me. Shocks aren't great, but I don't feel Stillmoon bridges the gap between the other card choices after you consider life loss. The only reason I currently run Nighthawks is because they can gain some of the life back and stabalize the game.
I'm not going to argue hawks anymore since none of the current winning lists run him - and I'm sick of arguing for it. You don't like it...don't play it. If a 1/1 flyer for 2 that draws 3 cards isn't good enough for you...well, ok play avenger on turn 4.
Or you could just be cool like me and run Tombstalker. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
Forlorn Egoist
First of all - I love tombstalker in this deck. I've played with him and absolutely love him.
Secondly - I refuse to even bring him up because bob is in the deck and noone wants to talk about playing with cards that are bad with bob - despite the fact that bob rarely draws you cards...lol.
Tombstalker is a perfectly legitimate creature to run, but I know arguing this will open up a can of worms. ^^'
As for the whole, "Bob," debate, I think it really boils down to preference. I prefer dragging things out to mid-late game with this deck, in which case Bob is a preferred option. However, in more aggro-oriented decks Sign in Blood is something I can see being used as it nets you cards upon resolution as opposed to Bob who draws you said cards 2 turns later. Also there is the conveinance of not being confined to a low mana curve so as to avoid being bolted each turn by Bob.
As for the Hawks, I'm actually intrigued by the idea of running them for aforementioned benefits, although I honestly have not playtested them nor even heard about running them until last night. I'll have to see how this plays out.
Forlorn Egoist
the primary reason I've stopped aruging against Bob is because the parenthesis at the top of the the thread (B/w Confidant) - if bob isn't in the deck it is definately no longer Deadguy Ale. There may or may not be a real deck without bob, but ultimately it is not deadguy.
Tombstalker was an absolute house though in my playtesting and there was always cards to Delve - especailly if I ran real discard isntead of sculler. But ultimately I just hate the idea of sticking bob (essentially meaning that "i'm now winning") and then taking 8 from tombstalker and putting me within lethal or outright killing me and going from winning to loosing.
*winning when I say it is meant in the typical old definition - not the Charlie Sheen version of "winning"
I've been running x4 Top/x2 Stalker and this has been working out for me thus far. Yeah, granted, taking 8 off a blind Bob sucks, but sometimes you just need to go balls-to-the-wall and risk it for the chance to drop a creature that will essentially kill them unless they can either counter it or remove it in 3 turns or less. I'm just the type of player who likes to play High Risks/High Rewards. Heck, I even spent countless hours remodling MBA/Deadguy so I could run Phyrexian Negator. LOL. But hey, my meta also has no Sligh/Zoo, and is primarily compossed of Tribal/Control (Merfolk/Land/Loam/Rock/Deadguy) so I can afford to be a little bit more risky than other people can with their list.
Forlorn Egoist
How about this? What matchups do you feel squadron hawk improves? Hes terrible against goblins, zoo, combo etc. I guess hes better in the junk matchup but meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by bokwinkle
He was very good for me against Goblins. Not so much against Combo. Basically any deck that has a limited amount of removal and doesn't play fliers... That's his job. He's there to make it so that the removal that they draw is fairly ineffective. They cycle an Incinerator to kill a Hawk.. ok, I've still got 3 more. Swords a Hawk... ok, I've still got 3 more. He's there to carry equipment, so anything that equipment is good against, he's good against. That's a surprisingly large section of the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by markbris
Tombstalker. that's an idea i could get behind...
Truthfully I play far more standard and EDH than I do Legacy, and I don't like squadron hawk in standard either...so it was a pretty hard sell for me to run them in Legacy....but for the sake of trying everything, I decided to give the hawks a test rather than theory craft them out of playability. I was surprised how many *sighs* I drew from my opponents when I played them - they're really annoying. You do have to watch for Deed and Maelstrom Pulse - but no more than if you were playing one big dude with one piece of equipment.
Generally, they are the last card in my hand that I play - so I know their selection is questionable anyway, but also I typically go from 1 card to 3 cards and my opponent knows that they have to deal with my board position AND my hand because my hand is not just a bunch of land and non-threats. It forces your opponent to think about clock and speeding up their win con, can force bad plays, and generally makes them have to consider playing things like firespout before all of my creatures are on the table...or it makes them consider holding firespout while they just sit there and die. It puts you in a situation to outplay your opponent - which IMHO is a good thing. It's a much more complex play than just laying a threat and saying "go".
As for tombstalker - like I said, the guy was an absolute house when I tested him, especially since Bob dies either the turn he comes out or the following turn. But being in a winning board state and immediately loosing to your own cards just sux.
I think we are missing some ideas that can tie Bob + Tombstalker: Innocent Blood and Sensei's Divining Top
Innocent Blood can remove a blocker and you can sack Bob (once you have tombstalker available, you should be on the downhill part of the game...) It's a way prevent Bob from killing you AND dealing with an opposing threat. Cheap way to deal with Progenitus, too. It's a Gatekeeper without the 2/2 body, but with the benefit of only costing B.
Sensei's Divining Top can also give you some great synergy, but it's obvious that there aren't that many flex spots. You can work around the 8-life loss by doing this: Top at EOT, put Tombstalker 2nd in line, get your first card for little/no lifeloss, then draw Stalker. Bingo, no 8 life loss. The same argument works for Stillmoon Cavalier, just make sure the land/cheaper mana spell is what Bob grabs and your normal draw gets the higher costed card. Junk uses this synergy to great profit. SDT isn't bad mid-late game like Vial is either...good value throughout the game. Top can make your Wastelands do double duty as mana sources rather than just LD, too.
Thoughts? Does anyone use Tops in Deadguy?
Personally, if I'm going to run Innocent blood and look for a finisher I'm going to run Abyssal Persecutor.
Tops are a possiblity, but not one I'm personally willing to run. The curve is so tight that I hate to be sinking mana into top every turn. I'd be more prone to splash green for sylvan library - but then I wouldn't need a finisher because i could just use 'Goyf. Generally, it can be done, I just feel like it makes the deck slower and takes some of the tempo away by trying to combo with a card that almost never survives more than a turn...lol. Probably the best way to run top is to run it in place of Vial (since you're already compromising the 2 CMC spot and making vial less active). Which goes from switching to a card that accellerates you to a card that slows you down...Top is just better is straight control than a tempo deck.
If we had more ways to protect Bob I'd probably give it more thought, but generally I feel like the only deck that currently supports that build is Dreadstill because of the availablity of countermagic. Just my $0.02...
So if (in your metagame) Bob only survives a turn...why risk a creature? Sign in Blood or Night's Whisper will both accomplish the same thing with the 'one turn' mentality. This allows you to support Tombstalker with a lot less risk, and also serves to get one more card in the yard to delve. *virtual shrug* just a note, take it or leave it...
Oh...it's been discussed...lol.
Also Saftey - the deck you're talking about is "the Gate" Persecutor, Bob's, innocent Blood, Top's. It's good, it's more aggro and less tempo though.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Gate. It doesn't usually use Stalkers though, and I thought the conversation was revolving around how to use Bob + Stalker in the same deck. The whole idea IMHO with Deadguy Ale is to have the best removal (Swords, Vindicate) along with Vial-ed in bears (Sculler, Bob) with a mana-denial/disruption package (Thoughtsieze, Wasteland) and an equipment 'finisher'. Am I missing anything? I don't see how Tombstalker is a bad option in this style of deck.
The Gate is all aggro, playing some disruption (Wasteland, Thoughtseize) but with a greater emphasis on better threats, enabled by Dark Ritual. To my knowledge, I don't think the Gate uses Tops...Junk emphasizes Bob/Tops quite a bit, but if I remember right, the Gate doesn't. Am I off base?
heh, no you're on track as usual :tongue: with the exception that the gate is now starting to turn towards tops and dead-guy doesn't necessarilly run vial - Minor issues, both.
IMHO the biggest difference between the Gate and Deadguy is the inclusion of a second color and choices of finishers - other than that the decks can be extremely similar - They run Hymn and we run Tidehollow. They run Ritual and we run Vial (sometimes...lol). They run Persecutor and we run Stoneforge Mystic. We both run thoughtseize and wasteland...etc. The comparisons are there throughout.
I think when you start to step away from 2 or 3 CMC threats you grow away from deadguy and grow into a 2-color Gate as you start looking for ways to protect yourself from bob and climb away from vial. Again, just opinion.
I don't agree here, Vial in Deadguy is a newer way of playing the deck, not the typical one (no judgement from my side if its good or bad to play it). With the inclusion of Vial the way to build the deck changes and you include more utility-critter like Tidehollow instead of spells like hymn.
I for example play Bob+Top and no Vials with a slightly higher curve (ending on 4 with 2 Elspeth and 2 Abyssal) and it works pretty well for me. But my meta has really few Countertop-Players, so the need for Vials is much lower on my side. If Countertop would be a huge factor in my area, I would also tend to the Vial-List.
i don't really play this deck that much in legacy anymore... here are my thoughts.
@hawk: it isn't pay 2 draw 3, it's pay two potentially search your library for overcosted 1/1s. when i played this deck i had found the deck to be too reliant of the equipments. if you're not splashing a third color look at all your creatures. they can create tempo for you, but it's very hard to capitalize on their loss of tempo because you don't have many fatties. if hawk was a 1/1 for 2 flying that said draw three cards or draw two cards, i would play him. He would be so nuts.
i like top in these lists. people see top as being clunky and expensive. It's virtual CA. It turns dead late game topdecked seizes into something else.
Bob stalker comes down to personal preference. I wouldn't be comfortable with running them together at least at the moment, if you do that's really good. Together they are amazing.
looks like we got safety on this thread now too! Yes!
I got hooked in when I saw Bokwinkle had put up some cool comments.
@Leto: seeing Aether Vial only as a way to play around Counterbalance is just flat out ridiculous. Vial is one of the best tempo engines in the history of magic, regardless of opposing countermagic/control. Deadguy sits on a creature curve of 2 mana (essentially bears, some hatebears, some utility bears like Mystic/Bob). So what can Vial do for this deck? Put threats/control into the game for free, allowing your mana to be open for disruption/control. How awesome does it feel to Vial in Tidehollow Sculler, rob their removal, and still have 2 mana open to play Bob (and most likely KEEP Bob!!!)????? Yep, absurd. It takes a dedicated turn 1-2 Vial to pull off...but you can use early game Wastelands to get Vial into play. Popping Wasteland turn 1 isn't always a good play (in fact, I think it's HARDLY EVER a good play) because you are only re-setting the game state back to turn 1. If you can get Vial turn 1, then pop off Wasteland turn 2, you are now advancing your game while stifling your opponents. Goblins do it, Merfolk do it, hell it's just GOOD PLAY.
Concering Sensei's Divining Top...I would only play Bob + Stalker with Tops. Sample list (pick it apart, please!)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tombstalker
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Thoughtsieze
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Scrubland
4x Marsh Flats
2-4x Alternate Fetchlands
4x Wasteland
1-3x Mutavault/Mishra's Factory
Swamp/Plains to get to 21 lands
The slots that I see as questionable right now are probably the Mutavaults (but with an emphasis on Vial for dudes and Top for filtering, you could allow more colorless lands). It's also questionable whether or not 4 targeted discards is enough...I think I'd feel more comfortable with 5-6, so Sculler is supported more. I also feel like Stillmoon Cavalier could work in this list, but dammit, there's just NO ROOM, lol. Serra Avenger is still superior, simply because you get a 3/3 flyer for 2 mana. I think it's a metagame call, but Stillmoon has so much promise with the built in protection. Putting on a Sword of Fire and Ice makes the guy impervious to spot removal, unblockable, and lets be honest, just a fucking house.
IMO Tombstalker doesn't fit very well into the Vial'd version simply because you don't Vial it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I agree with your assessment of Aether Vial, it's acceleration, countermagic dodging and combat tricks. Speaking of which - perhaps it's time to make a new thread, entitled BW Tempo, for the version with Vial and Mystic package? The deck has changed a lot since 2005, and a new thread is always a catalyst for discussion, and a means to bring together experience from playtesting and tournament results.