[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

Hi, y'all! I'm interested in playing BUG Delver, but, currently, I don't own Tarmogoyfs (but have everything else). Are there any (viable, competitive, non-budget) lists that allow for this? I'd assume you'd have to be on either a skewed black Tombstalker/Hymn to Tourach or skewed blue True-Name Nemesis/Snapcaster Mage plan, with perhaps a Scavenging Ooze in there. I've seen, say, RUG lists with Stifle that play 0-1 Goyfs, so I wondered if a BUG list could possibly accomplish this, too. If not, I'll probably look to slam Jace in BUG Control.

Thanks for accommodating a stupid question!

There really isn't anything that can just replace Goyf, there is a reason he is worth as much as he is, at least not in Green. Black had the Delve creatures, Angler, Tombstalker, and Tasigur. If you want to stay BUG, I would probably experiment with some combination of those, with maybe a True-Name Nemesis. This is really going to make your average CMC high, so 20 lands is a must and I don't think you can then run more than one Liliana maximum. It's certainly not optimal at all, but it could probably work.

The other option I see would be to run 4c Delver and substitute Young Pyromancer for Goyf.

I think BUG Control with TNN is stronger than Delver without Goyfs. If you wanted to get a little silly and don't see too many Bolts, Quirion Dryad is workable early but is a terrible topdeck.

There has been unarguable success in SCG events with BUG Delver builds having 3-4 TNN and 0-1 Vendilion Clique, and 0 Tarmogoyf. That said, your clock is worse, and its difficult to play Hymn with True-name Nemesis successfully. I think Angler and TNN is a good combination, allowing TNN to be your wall. If you find a way to make the mana-base work well enough, Tombstalker may even be better than Angler, or even a 1/1 split. I'm of the opinion that Tasigur is absolutely worse than both of the others. Its possible that dropping the 3rd Trop for a 4th Sea would be a way to play both TNN and the Tombstalker/Hymn in the same list successfully, or even a Bayou, although that seems suspect.

EDIT: deck like this could look something like:

Creatures: 14
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 TNN
1 Clique/4th TNN
1 Angler
1 Tombstalker/2nd Angler

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Daze/-1 Daze, +1 Liliana
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

Land: 18
4 Delta
2 Rainforest
2 Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Sea
2 Trop



From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

There has been unarguable success in SCG events with BUG Delver builds having 3-4 TNN and 0-1 Vendilion Clique, and 0 Tarmogoyf. That said, your clock is worse, and its difficult to play Hymn with True-name Nemesis successfully. I think Angler and TNN is a good combination, allowing TNN to be your wall. If you find a way to make the mana-base work well enough, Tombstalker may even be better than Angler, or even a 1/1 split. I'm of the opinion that Tasigur is absolutely worse than both of the others. Its possible that dropping the 3rd Trop for a 4th Sea would be a way to play both TNN and the Tombstalker/Hymn in the same list successfully, or even a Bayou, although that seems suspect.

EDIT: deck like this could look something like:

Creatures: 14
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 TNN
1 Clique/4th TNN
1 Angler
1 Tombstalker/2nd Angler

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Daze/-1 Daze, +1 Liliana
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

Land: 18
4 Delta
2 Rainforest
2 Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Sea
2 Trop



From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

---

Thanks for the feedback, guys. This is actually a pretty similar list to what I was considering. Without the clock Tarmogoyf presents, attacking their mana with Stifles on fetchlands and Wasteland seems like a solid plan. I think running True-Name Nemesis main and Hymn to Tourachs in the sideboard might be strong. TNN ain't great against combo anyways, so a direct swap seems decent.

Here's what I was thinking about (sideboard for my meta, consisting of lots of MUD and Miracles, some DnT):

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tombstalker

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

--- sideboard ---

1 Pithing Needle
2 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse

A part of me wonders if I should play 19 lands with all the 3-drops. And TNN alongside Liliana of the Veil might prove too tough in testing, but I like her -2 for my meta of big, stupid guys from MUD and NicFit (hence the Dismember). I should probably find room for Disfigures in the 75, though.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by theMonster

A part of me wonders if I should play 19 lands with all the 3-drops. And TNN alongside Liliana of the Veil might prove too tough in testing, but I like her -2 for my meta of big, stupid guys from MUD and NicFit (hence the Dismember). I should probably find room for Disfigures in the 75, though.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

---

19 Lands is definitely the minimum I think you can get away with here. Also, the lack of Bayou makes me not really like Liliana. I would cut her for another land. Having to fetch double Black will have you in a bad spot to cast Abrupt Decay, even though you really don't have many Green spells, that one is really important.

Played 5 rounds yesterday. Been a combo player for a long time (traded my Animator and OmniTell pieces for a set of Goyf, a Bayou and a Misty Rainforest) so this was a new role for me. My deck still isn't complete, borrowed Clique and TNN from a teammate.

R1 vs Zoo 2-1
G1: I have more creatures than him on the board.
G2: My board was just 3 Deathrite and an unflip delver (it never flip for maybe 3 turns til I died).
G3: He got stuck with 1 land and had 2 flip delvers and a goyf for the win.

R2 vs Mentor Miracles 2-1
G1: Early delver and Hymn's help me win the match.
G2: He was able to control the game and win with 2 angel tokens.
G3: Hymn again help me control the match and a timely Clique on his Entreat miracle sealed the win.

R3 vs Sneak Show 1-2
G1: Controlled the match early on with counters but he eventually saw a show and tell after he preordain and then drop a Griselbrand after.
G2: Somehow I was able to kill him with a delver and deathrite shaman while he is assembling his combo.
G3: He won via Show and Tell into Griselbrand then Through the Breach an Emrakul afterwards.

R4 vs Affinity 2-0
G1: Controlled the match with removals.
G2: Slowly recovered after being down to 8 - killed all his creatures then a single 6/7 tarmogofy win the game.

R5 vs Elves ID

QF vs Sneak Show (same player I fought on the 3rd round) 2-0
G1: I was able to counter his turn 1 Show and Tell. Then slowly grind to win.
G2: I got annihilated by Emrakul with me down to 2 after and no permanents. I got lucky that he have to assemble his combo again while I'm slowly building back my resources. He was able to drop an Omniscience later on but blank on his Brainstorm. And my Tarmogoyf and Delver was enough to finish him after.

SF vs MUD 2-1
G1: Got lucky despite him drawing 2 cards every upkeep from Coercive Portal there was no threat that he played. TNN, Delver and a Shaman win me the game.
G2: I got locked by Smokestack and he has big creatures in play.
G3: The game went long - his Wurmcoil was being meet by my TNN. I eventually got Liliana into her ultimate and cleared 3 of his lands, Metalworker and Grim Monolith. He left 2 lands and the Wurmcoil. I have a Null Rod in play, I think that's why he sac the former. Delver finish the game.

Finals vs Junk Depths 2-1
G1: He got flooded and then my Deathrite and Delver finish him
G2: I kept a 1 land hand (Sea) with two ponders, a hymn, LotV, Clique and a Krosan Grip. I'm not sure if it's a valid keep or not but maybe I got greedy and I was hoping to get another land from the 2 ponders. However, got unlucky and no lands showed after the first ponder and then he wasteland my Underground Sea after. Mana screwed after and his Marit Lage killed me.
G3: Had to mull to 6. He controlled me with 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Inquisition early in the game. My turn 1 delver never flip in 3 turns until it got sword. He killed my Tarmogoyf and Deathrite also. I was able to hide his Knight of the Reliquary with my Clique but he drew another one and it summon Marit Lage afterwards and I lost.

I still have a lot to learn playing this deck and me being the tempo player now. But I was still happy with my tournament result. This is my list:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacomb
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secret
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis
3 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sb:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Extirpate
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

Congrats on the strong results. From what I can see though, I think you were somewhat lucky to not face many Wastelands because, from what we have collectively found, is that the Hymn version is more mana hungry, so 18 lands simply is not enough. Since you don't run too many 3 drops, 19 is probably reasonable, as long as your meta doesn't have too many Wastelands. For me, I run 20 lands, then board one (or sometimes two) out if I know my opponent doesn't have Wastelands.

Thank you H. Yes, I've just realized that most of my match last Sunday don't have Wasteland. My teammates also suggested to at least make my land count to 19. I'm going to cut the 3rd Disfigure main and move it to the sideboard and change it to the 19th land. Thank you again for the advice.

Congrats again on your first outing with the deck,, downtoonelife. I'm going to sort of build on what H said for a minute here - you mentioned that this is your first tempo deck, so what I'm about to say might seem odd. The Hymn/Liliana build isn't a "real" tempo deck - it's an aggressive midrange deck with an incidental tempo plan. You'll hear/see a lot of people complain about how BUG Delver is a worse deck than RUG Delver because it's worse at the tempo plan. Those people are missing the point. You always want a third non-Wasteland land by turn 4 or 5 so you can cast Liliana or cantrip into Decay. You're almost never the beatdown against other Delver decks, but you're also the one with inevitability in a lot of matchups. Rich Shay even MD'ed Jace, the Mind Sculptor at one point and top 8'ed an SCG Open. Basically, you have to re-ask "Who's the Beatdown" very often, because it changes a lot, and then tune the deck to beat an expected metagame.

Thank you and I stand corrected btm10. I assumed that the deck is tempo. Yes this is the first time that I'm playing this kind of deck. I was playing ANT before Mystical Tutor got banned. After that I moved to Show and Tell decks then Re-animator. There are still a lot of decks that I want to test play with and I'll keep in mind your advice.

i'm going to be shifting over from UR Delver to BUG delver because i miss playing the midrange end of the delver spectrum. i've got a tournament coming up at the start of January that i'm starting to test for (having a young family and not much of a legacy scene makes testing a little more difficult here, hence starting this early), and i was thinking of starting my testing with this deck:

Creatures
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Deathrite Shaman
2 x Dark Confidant

Non Creature Spells
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
3 x Hymn to Tourach
3 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
2 x Thoughtseize
4 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Murderous Cut

Lands
4 x Wasteland
4 x Polluted Delta
3 x Verdant Catacomb
2 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Underground Sea
2 x Tropical Island
1 x Bayou

Sideboard
2 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
3 x Disfigure
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Spell Pierce
1 x Force of Will
1 x Thoughtseize
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Sylvan Library
1 x Hymn to Tourach

firstly, i'm not sure if i should be going for the 2nd Tropical Island or the 2nd Bayou. the more i think about how the deck is constructed it probably should be the bayou to make BB for Hymn and Liliana easier to cast. it also helps with casting turn 1 deathrite, but obviously makes it harder to go turn 1 delver.

secondly, if i have the option of both deathrite and delver in my opening hand, am i right in thinking i should normally be playing the deathrite first? so that i can accelerate into turn 2 Liliana, or hymn + delver etc.

thirdly, i have an idea on what the meta is going to be (miracles, elves, various combo like food chain, reanimator etc, merfolk, deathblade, sneak & show, infect, goblins) but im not sure i've got my sideboard quite right. i'm thinking maybe adding in another flusterstorm and maybe a hydroblast (probably not worth it) but i'm unsure what to take out.

any help would be much appreciated

cheers

also, murderous cut. should that just be Liliana of the Veil number 2?

I've been going back and forth on the second MD Liliana and I'm not sure there's a right answer. I also think - and this is sort of heresy here - that exact duals you play aren't as important as they're made out to be after you've reached 3 Sea/1 Trop/1 Bayou. You want seven total if you're on the midrangey Hymn/Liliana list, but I don't think there's a hard and fast rule once you've got the Bayou. I'm currently running 3/2/2, but I've run 4/2/1 and 4/1/2 (Sea/Trop/Bayou) as well.

The only real criticism I have on the list is that the fourth Force should be MD (maybe over a land), which opens up a slot in the board. There's always an argument for the 20th land the midrangier you get, so maybe -1 fetch, +1 Force, +1 Creeping Tar Pit in the board? It's great against Shardless, Blade decks, the mirror (which usually turns into a grindfest), is one of the best answers to Jace and is just generally fantastic against Miracles.

Deathrite is usually the turn 1 play that you want the most since he both makes Daze more powerful and opens up some incredibly strong turn 2s like Hymn + Delver or Wasteland + Decay.

Thanks for the reply btm10, first change then is going to be -1 misty rainforest for the force of will, to see how that works out. Better try grinding some games out...

Went 5-2 (14/109) yesterday with this list

4 Underground sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay

SB:
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Pithing needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Envelop
1 Disfigure
1 Dark confidant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties


R1 , Lost to cheerios with retract+glimpse+beck//call, all dudes artifacts 1-2 (he had god hands , won through fow + hymn both games i lost) (-4 decay , -1 disfigure, -1 tarmogoyf --> 2 Envelop, 3 Surgical , 1 Dark confidant)

R2 Won ANT 2-0 , nothing to say about this (-4 decay , -1 disfigure ,-1 tarmogoyf for 2 envelop,3 Surgical extraction,1 Dark Confidant)

R3 Won MUD 2-1 I won game 3 when i was basically locked out , but he just didnt manage to draw anything to block my dark confidant who went all the way with deathrite shaman who was named on pithing needle (I sideboarded 0 cards, should have taken pithing needle for disfigure I think, but as fun as it is, Disfigure kind of won me game 3 when i traded pithing needled deathrite shaman + disfigure for lodestone golem)

R4 Won Miracles 2-1. Sideboarded -4 Fow , -4 Daze , -1 Disfigure --> 3 Liliana , 2 Jace , 2 envelop , 1 Needle , 1 Dark Confidant. Game 1 my opponent only cast like CB which i decayed and jace before he died, g2 I lost to early
bloodmoon, g3 opponent didint draw enough lands and dark confidant ran away with the game.

R5 Won Against Infect 2-1, Opponent played 2 Gitaxian probes and scooped the game after mulligan. I put him on some kind of combodeck, Sideboarded out 4 Decay and 1 Disfigure for 3 Liliana and 2 Envelop. lost g2... G3 he mulliganed again where I drew really good draw with this time correctly sideboarded deck. (dont remember exactly how i sided , took out 4 fow+1Hymn for needle + disfigure + confidant + Marsh Casualties + golgari charm i think)

R6 Against Burg delver , Lost 0-2. I think i played poorly this matchup, Didnt test enough , and to be honest I didnt know what to expect from it... so many different builds. Lost game 1 to Gurmag angler and bolts, G2 Sideboarded horribly wrong (-4 fow -2 tseize for 1 disfigure , 2 jace , 3 liliana) Opponent was playing stifle after all (didnt show any in game1, and he had left dazes in on draw) My plan went horribly wrong as I died to Young pyromancer and Delver of secrets backed up couple of stifles.

R7 against Reanimator won 2-0. This round was funny. I won the die roll , started of with a deathrite shaman, opponent played Island and pass i think. I went Hymn to tourach T2 Opponent tried to brainstorm in response , And i force of willed it I think. Hymn hit Tropical island and Force of will. Opponent played swamp as a last card i saw in that game, bit later i played some threats and opponent conceded... I saw Island , Swamp , Brainstorm , Force of will , Tropical Island --> I thought its some kind of BUG control , Bug landstill (got some popularity in Finland) or Shardless Bug. I sideboarded just a littlebit expecting some kind of bug control deck. (-2 Force of will , -2 thoughtseize for 2 Jace , 1 Liliana , 1 Dark Confidant) G2 Opponent started of with Carefull study into Griselbrand in grave..... I had t1 deathrite, opponent had Exhume + needle in hand , He went for needle on drs. I had decay + fetch to get rid of needle and griselbrand , and no counters in hand! bit later i Resolved Dark confidant -> hymn to tourach --> jace the mindsculptor to win the game and Match!

Painful Truths has been working out quite well for me.

I am running it in a fairly stock list that has 13 creatures, 20 lands, Hymn.

I think the right number to run MD is probably going to end up being 2 copies, but to get a better sense of what it accomplishes in test games I increased the number to 3. I moved my usual singleton copy of Sylvan Library to the board, though normally that's been really good in the MD against the numerous Swords to Plowshares decks out there.

Truths further solidifies TA's midrange power. Resolving it feels a lot like playing Treasure Cruise except that your opponent doesn't have access to TC themselves. Drawing 3 cards, even at the cost of 3 life is good at all points of the game (late-game Burn matchups aside), whether you're ahead or trying to catch up. I'll admit that it's weaker than Cruise in that it doesn't typically allow you to play as many of the drawn cards right away, but with access to FoW and Daze and a fair amount of 1-drops that's not typically a huge problem.

I definitely expect to see this card showing up more frequently in Tier 1 deck lists, though I don't think it'd end up being anywhere near as format-warping as the Delve spells were.

Hey all,

Played in Kansas City (3rd/77) and I'm doing some tuning to my board before an IQ near me in a week. Here's my list I played:

Maindeck:

Creatures
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Snare
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge


My list felt nearly perfect. Only outlier was the second spell snare. I'm considering making it an Umezawa's Jitte. Any thoughts on that?

Congrats on the strong finish, it's good to see Delver back in a top 8.

I guess the question on Spell Snare is what matchups do you use it in? Considering that, what matchups do you plan to use Jitte in? Ergo, what do you see as the trade-off here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

Congrats on the strong finish, it's good to see Delver back in a top 8.

I guess the question on Spell Snare is what matchups do you use it in? Considering that, what matchups do you plan to use Jitte in? Ergo, what do you see as the trade-off here?

---

The Jitte is mostly a 'cute' idea, was just seeing if anyone else tried it. I'd say the lack of creature threats make it a questionable choice. Spell Snare is super good against current popular decks that are less favorable matchups (miracles, shardless, competent storm pilots, etc), but the 2 felt a little dense, I'll test it a bit more though. Soft permission is not where this deck wants to be right now.

Thank you btw, 3 years of losing win-and-ins with TES got me a little fed up :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ManCharm

The Jitte is mostly a 'cute' idea, was just seeing if anyone else tried it. I'd say the lack of creature threats make it a questionable choice. Spell Snare is super good against current popular decks that are less favorable matchups (miracles, shardless, competent storm pilots, etc), but the 2 felt a little dense, I'll test it a bit more though. Soft permission is not where this deck wants to be right now.

Thank you btw, 3 years of losing win-and-ins with TES got me a little fed up :p

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I usually lose just before a win-and-in, so I don't usually have that problem. :laugh: (13th is the best I got, in Houston earlier this year.)

I think Jitte is probably an alright card, I've never actually tried it though. One thing I like about the idea, at least, in theory, is that it allows you to more effectively single-threat a deck like Miracles. Other than that, it can kind of swing a mid-range matchup, at least a little, since it makes your Goyfs much better than theirs. I guess the biggest issue is that most of the decks you'd want it versus run Decay, which is pretty bad for paying :4: to play and equip it only to have it blown up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

I usually lose just before a win-and-in, so I don't usually have that problem. :laugh: (13th is the best I got, in Houston earlier this year.)

I think Jitte is probably an alright card, I've never actually tried it though. One thing I like about the idea, at least, in theory, is that it allows you to more effectively single-threat a deck like Miracles. Other than that, it can kind of swing a mid-range matchup, at least a little, since it makes your Goyfs much better than theirs. I guess the biggest issue is that most of the decks you'd want it versus run Decay, which is pretty bad for paying :4: to play and equip it only to have it blown up.

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I played down there earlier this year, lost my win and in with TES. lol. My buddy Dustin won with TES tho so it wasn't all bad.

Jitte would be good against legend miracles, but ponder miracles/mentor miracles would be really bad for Jitte. I'm debating between

Spell Snare
Dimir Charm
Envelop
True-Name Nemesis
Liliana of the Veil
Maelstrom Pulse
Umezawa's Jitte
and any other good ideas. Envelop is probably the best of those, because the only decks I sat down and got sad against were Shardless and Sneak and Show

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ManCharm

I played down there earlier this year, lost my win and in with TES. lol. My buddy Dustin won with TES tho so it wasn't all bad.

Jitte would be good against legend miracles, but ponder miracles/mentor miracles would be really bad for Jitte. I'm debating between

Spell Snare
Dimir Charm
Envelop
True-Name Nemesis
Liliana of the Veil
Maelstrom Pulse
Umezawa's Jitte
and any other good ideas. Envelop is probably the best of those, because the only decks I sat down and got sad against were Shardless and Sneak and Show

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Dustin from Louisiana? He's a friend of mine, he won in Dallas though, not Houston (I know this because I rode there with him, haha).

Either way, I don't see Jitte being that bad versus any of the Miracles builds though, but this is more because I don't play the sort of game you are supposed to versus them. I only ever single-creature threat them, since I don't give them the satisfaction of Terminusing multiple creatures at once.

I think Evelop is really good, I've even run Dimir Charm from time to time and while it's not very efficient, it can be a removal spell for opposing Deathrite and a counter for Entreat/Terminus.

Right now I am very much on the fence about if I want to run Delver or Shardless. I have an IQ coming up next weekend, so I need to decide fast...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

Dustin from Louisiana? He's a friend of mine, he won in Dallas though, not Houston (I know this because I rode there with him, haha).

Either way, I don't see Jitte being that bad versus any of the Miracles builds though, but this is more because I don't play the sort of game you are supposed to versus them. I only ever single-creature threat them, since I don't give them the satisfaction of Terminusing multiple creatures at once.

I think Evelop is really good, I've even run Dimir Charm from time to time and while it's not very efficient, it can be a removal spell for opposing Deathrite and a counter for Entreat/Terminus.

Right now I am very much on the fence about if I want to run Delver or Shardless. I have an IQ coming up next weekend, so I need to decide fast...

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Yeah, Dallas was the one I went to then :p somewhere in Texas I played a magic once.

Snare shares a lot of value with Envelop, including Death an Taxes, which is a rough matchup. So it's a big meta call.

Shardless if you're expecting a lot of miracles, and Delver if you're expecting a lot of combo, imo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ahtii

Went 5-2 (14/109) yesterday with this list

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Based on your location, I guess you were participating to the Finnish Legacy Championships? :)

I was there too with a BUG Delver. I was at 3-1 at some point but collapsed to a miserable 3-4 result..

My list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dread of Night
1 Sylvan Library

R1: 2-0 vs RUG delver
g1: He bolts my creatures, I decay his. I manage to land TNN and he can't do anything to it.
sideboarding: -2 Daze, -2 Hymn, +2 Disfigure, +Jitte, +Lib
g2: I start with UG Sea into DRS. He bolts it, wastes my UG sea and then surgicals it! Luckily his hand was otherwise very greedy, he is stuck with only one land for several turns. I slowly ponder my way back to game with just one tropical and bayous. I land Liliana and I think I even ultimate her once, destroying only one land. He just wasn't able to find any creatures. First TNN gets pyroblasted, second resolves. Opponent scoops when I play Jitte.
1-0

R2: 2-0 vs 12post (Friend of mine. Fun to travel through whole country to play with your friends :)
g1: Turn 2 TNN is a nice clock! At some opponent is at 4 life, has Needle which named DRS, and a Glacial Chasm so I can't attack. I have TNN, DRS and 3 lands in play, Abrupt decay in my hand. I pass turn. On his upkeep, he pays 2 life to keep the Chasm on the table. Before moving to his draw step, I Decay the Needle and eat a sorcery with my DRS. GG.
sideboarding: -4 Daze, +Null Rod, +KGrip, +Surgical, +Clique
g2: I know this matchup is decided on the early turns: if you let 12post be alone for the first rounds, you cant do anything to it later on. So I decide to wasteland his first post. Which ends up earning me the victory. He never gets into the game and my Hymn rips 2 Prime Times from his hand.
2-0

R3: 0-2 vs RUG delver
g1: RUG delver game at its finest. Lightning bolts, delvers, stifles, wastelands..
sideboarding: -4 FoW, +2 Disfigure, +Jitte, +Lib
g2: We trade lots of resources, but he has the untouchable Mongoose. At some point I am able to resolve Sylvan Library and think for a moment that I might be in this game. I get to resolve Tarmogoyf and even get a Jitte equipped. He has unflipped Delver, 3/3 Mongoose and a Tarmo. I decide to attack with my Jitted Tarmo. He instantly blocks with Mongoose and Tarmo. I manage to kill both with Jitte activations and Disfigure. Next turn he plays 2 more delvers and says they are all gonna flip next turn. And so they do. After the game I thought that maybe I attacked too hastily with Tarmogoyf, but I guess there was not much else to do in the situation.
2-1 (it is not over yet!)

R4: 2-0 vs RUG delver (cmon, 3rd one today!)
g1: We trade resources, his delver does not flip in 5 turns, my TNN resolves.
sideboarding: -2 Daze, -2 Hymn, +2 Disfigure, +Jitte, +Lib
g2: We have a tight race at the end, he bashes me with his Mongoose while I do the same to him with my TNN. I FoW his Brainstorm which would have given him Lightning Bolt, phew!
3-1

R5: 0-2 vs OmniTell (another friend of mine! Sad games, as the loser is out of top8 after this. I feel confident because this is a good matchup for me.)
g1: I have a slow clock. I decide to aggressively FoW a Brainstorm cause he has a fetchland in play. Next turn I try to resolve Liliana which he has FoW as an answer. Later on he FoWs my FoW which tried to counter his Intuition. Intuition finds SnT and he cheats the spaghetti monster into play. I am not able to Ponder into my second Liliana.
sideboarding: -2 TNN, -4 Abrupt Decay, +2 Spell pierce, +1 Clique, +1 KGrip, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Surgical
g2: I have to mulligan and keep a mediocre hand which has KGrip. Two 2/3 Tarmogoyfs beat him for a while. Opponent has Island and two Boseijus in play. He has not played a single cantrip. I have 4 lands untapped, KGrip+SPierce+Daze in hand. He casts SnT which I cant do anything about, shows Omniscience. I am waiting for him to pass the priority so I can KGrip it. He does not pass it until he casts the Emrakul. Good night..

I saw 0 Hymns during these two games.
3-2

I feel a bit disappointed at this point, but you get to play in this event only once a year, so lets play then!

R6: 1-2 vs Reanimator
g1: I know he is on reanimator and I keep a fast hand with T1 Delver, into Dazing his T1 cantrip, into wasting 3 of his lands. I even take a risk and Hymn him, which rips Reanimate and Exhume from his hand. This game ends fast.
sideboarding: -4 Hymn, -2 TNN, +Clique, +Cage, +Surgical, +Library, +2 SPierce
g2: He plays only land on his first turn. I start with Tropical into DRS. He casts Careful Study on his second turn. Would you have countered this? I have a FoW but decide not to use it. He discards Griselbrand and Sphinx of the Steel Wind, omfg. Ok, I have a FoW and active DRS, so I should be fine, right? On his next turn he casts Exhume, I FoW, he FoWs back. I decide to eat the Griselbrand in response. Sphinx starts to eat my life total and I am not able to cantrip into Liliana.
g3: Long game, I am able to resolve Grafdigger's Cage. He gets the game by Show and Telling Griselbrand into game.
3-3

Second good matchup in a row and I lost. I guess this is Magic, sometimes they have it and you don't.

R7: 0-2 vs Elves
g1: I have no idea what he is playing, so I keep a mediocre hand with T1 Delver and T2 Hymn. He fetches a basic forest and plays a Quirion Ranger. I know instantly that I am probably dead meat. Desperate Daze, Hymn and Abrupt Decay is not enough to stop the inevitable forces of Llanowar.
sideboarding: -4 Daze, -Bayou, -2 Hymn, +2 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 SPierce, +1 Jitte (Yes, I did not side in the Grafdigger's Cage even it was put into the side because of fear of Elves and GY strategies.. dunno how this happened.)
g2: Delver and Tarmogoyf beats him to a quite low life while I try to keep his elves out of the board with well drawn Decays and Disfigures. I am one turn from getting him down when he manages to hard cast the Hoof with couple of elves on board.
3-4

Having the Elves deck myself, I know how easy matchup the BUG strategies usually are for them. We need to be very lucky and draw our sweepers in time.

Other than the bad luck with my draws (and maybe bad decisions?) in the two combo matches, the list felt really good.

TNN was definitely the MVP for me in this event. I have usually played Dark Confidant in his place, but I was expecting lots of Miracles and DnT for this event, so I decided to go with TNN. Luckily he also helps with the RUG delver matches, it seems. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meite

Based on your location, I guess you were participating to the Finnish Legacy Championships? :)

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Yea it was Finnish Legacy Champs.

Dark Confidant was really good for me. I also think its great against d&t , miracles and Shardless. I just dont like TNN in the deck with double bayou.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Painful Truths has been working out quite well for me.

I am running it in a fairly stock list that has 13 creatures, 20 lands, Hymn.

I think the right number to run MD is probably going to end up being 2 copies, but to get a better sense of what it accomplishes in test games I increased the number to 3. I moved my usual singleton copy of Sylvan Library to the board, though normally that's been really good in the MD against the numerous Swords to Plowshares decks out there.

Truths further solidifies TA's midrange power. Resolving it feels a lot like playing Treasure Cruise except that your opponent doesn't have access to TC themselves. Drawing 3 cards, even at the cost of 3 life is good at all points of the game (late-game Burn matchups aside), whether you're ahead or trying to catch up. I'll admit that it's weaker than Cruise in that it doesn't typically allow you to play as many of the drawn cards right away, but with access to FoW and Daze and a fair amount of 1-drops that's not typically a huge problem.

I definitely expect to see this card showing up more frequently in Tier 1 deck lists, though I don't think it'd end up being anywhere near as format-warping as the Delve spells were.

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I think I'm being very stupid about painful truths as I just don't get how it could be that good. I haven't tested it at all though, and a number of people do say it's good in a variety of decks so it's obviously something I'm missing the point on.

When you're having to spend 3 different colours of mana to get the best out of painful truths, wouldn't the easier to cast (and also not a good card) read the bones be just as useful?

Like I said I've not tested the card, so it may play out much better than I can envision

Quote:

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Originally Posted by and3h

I think I'm being very stupid about painful truths as I just don't get how it could be that good. I haven't tested it at all though, and a number of people do say it's good in a variety of decks so it's obviously something I'm missing the point on.

When you're having to spend 3 different colours of mana to get the best out of painful truths, wouldn't the easier to cast (and also not a good card) read the bones be just as useful?

Like I said I've not tested the card, so it may play out much better than I can envision

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Read the Bones draws only 2 cards. While it's certainly arguable that Scrying 2 is worth a card or perhaps at least half a card, in terms of raw card advantage the difference between 2-for-1 and 3-for-1 is significant. At the minimum, this might draw you an extra Blue spell to pitch to Force of Will.

The most comparable card to Truths in recent times is Treasure Cruise. Truths actually has a few minor advantages over Cruise:

1. it's Black, and thus not a Pyro/REB target.
2. it will always cost 3 and only 3, regardless of graveyard status -- which typically means it could be cast on turn 2 (with DRS) or turn 3 more frequently.
3. multiple copies can be more easily chained over multiple turns since Delving is not a requirement.
4. it doesn't really require much 'build around' considerations, whereas Cruise was most broken in a deck like URx with Gitaxian Probe

The most convincing argument would be for you to test the card yourself and see how it performs. I find that it does a fantastic job of refueling in the mid-game, leading to TA drowning the opponent in card advantage.

I'm rather skeptical of a three mana, sorcery speed draw three, but a playset was cheap enough, so I'll try it out in a couple weeks.

My suspicion is that it's best in the heavy black Bayou builds.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

My suspicion is that it's best in the heavy black Bayou builds.

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Yes, I am running a 4/2/1 split of Sea/Bayou/Trop, and also 4 Waste and 9 Fetch for 20 lands total. With DRS, casting the card for 3 has been easy/consistent.

My scepticism was mainly coming from wondering how consistently you could be casting it with 3 different coloured mana sources. Now that I know we're running a very similar mana base I'll certainly give it a try.

I tried Painful Truths as a 1-of at my store's weekly, and found it to be extremely good against decks where your life total doesn't matter that much (duh). I cast it twice in 2 games against a Miracles player, and I wish I could somehow play 4 in the deck against that matchup. To be fair, I tried running 4c Delver this week as well, so my findings were a bit biased.

To other people testing it, how many are you running? I kind of want to bump my count up to 2, but then you get to the hard decision of what to cut to make room.

Just came across this list on CFB (link is here http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...e-week-legacy/) It is very close to my 60 but the sideboard is pretty different.


Lands
2 x Bayou
1 x Tropical Island
3 x Underground Sea
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Polluted Delta
4 x Wasteland
Creatures
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Dark Confidant
Spells
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
2 x Disfigure
2 x Thoughtseize
4 x Daze
4 x Hymn to Tourach (Wolf)
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Force of Will

Sideboard
3 x Dark Confidant
4 x Leyline of the Void
2 x Disfigure
1 x Null Rod
1 x Thoughtseize
1 x Liliana of the Veil
3 x Submerge

4x Leyline seems interesting to me, I am running 2 surgical extractions and 2 Grafdigger's Cage currently. Also there is alot of extra creature hate without any extra counters like flusterstorm of envelop.

What do people think about this list/sideboard?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tantarus

What do people think about this list/sideboard?

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I'm not a fan of Leyline in this deck.

1. It requires 4 slots -- a significant commitment for an archetype you might not even face in a moderately-sized tournament.
2. It typically requires mulligans, and there's no guarantee that the new hand is playable (e.g. no lands -- do you still keep it?)
3. This deck can struggle to hit 4 mana in a meaningful timeframe. So if they remove it, additional copies are difficult to deploy before the opponent accomplishes their goals.
4. We run 4 DRS in the main deck. A split of Surgical Extraction and Grafdigger's Cage seems to work better alongside them and affects a wider swath of the metagame (e.g. Elves, Past in Flames, Punishing Fire/Loam, etc.). These cards also have the advantage of being deployable *after* turn 1, so you can keep an otherwise strong hand with a number of cantrips in the hopes of finding your SB cards.
5. To go along with the above point, Leyline requires all 4 slots to be brought in. Whereas 2 copies of Cage could be brought in against Elves, and the 2 Surgical Extractions could be left in the SB.

Outside of a local metagame where you *know* you are going to run into some graveyard decks, LotV is not a card I would want to be running in modern BUG Delver. It works well in a deck like UBr Tezzerator, because it also doubles as half of a win condition (with Helm of Obedience), but here it seems like a waste of 4 slots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tantarus

Just came across this list on CFB (link is here http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...e-week-legacy/) It is very close to my 60 but the sideboard is pretty different.

Sideboard
3 x Dark Confidant
4 x Leyline of the Void
2 x Disfigure
1 x Null Rod
1 x Thoughtseize
1 x Liliana of the Veil
3 x Submerge

4x Leyline seems interesting to me, I am running 2 surgical extractions and 2 Grafdigger's Cage currently. Also there is alot of extra creature hate without any extra counters like flusterstorm of envelop.

What do people think about this list/sideboard?

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I have yet to lose against Reanimator or Dredge with 1x Cage 1x Extraction on side.
I really don't see why we would want to double the amount of grave hate slots.

The Confidants on side look good against Miracles and other grindy matches.
I don't like the lack of sweepers though. Death&Taxes and Elves can be very hard to beat.
Stuff like Charm, Deluge or Marsh Casualties make our life a lot easier against them.

Lastly I don't think I'll ever run less than 3x Envelop/Fluster/Pierce on side.
I always like to have more blue to fight the large amount of Combo here in the Netherlands.

Those are my thoughts. :cool:

I agree with Asthereal - I wouldn't run fewer than 3 pieces of additional hand/stack interaction in the board, and I'm not in love with Leyline in a Delver shell (in a control or Shardless shell, however, I do like it). I'm on 2 Flusterstorm/1 Thoughtseize, though there's an argument for turning a Flusterstorm into Envelop.

To change topics: I've tested both additional Dark Confidants (1-3 SB + 1-2 MD) and Painful Truths and I'm not sure which is better, though I'm leaning Bob so far. BUG to draw 3 at Sorcery speed is a lot to invest even if we are drawing three cards, and it doesn't impact the board at all, whereas Dark Confidant's 2/1 body is often relevant. In contrast, I've found Truths better in a BUG Comtrol shell. I feel like this might end up being like Thoughtseize vs. Hymn, where both are always good, but the more controlling shell is going to prefer one of thse and the more aggressive shell prefers the other. Has anyone had similar experiences?

Alright, so I decided to buy into this deck. What do you guys think of my initial list?

Creatures (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorceries (4)
4 Ponder

Instants (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chaam

Alright, so I decided to buy into this deck. What do you guys think of my initial list?

Creatures (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorceries (4)
4 Ponder

Instants (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

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3 bobs should suffice.

Hello everyone!

Been playing mostly Nicfit in different variations. and been playing legacy for a year now. Been gathering up cards for a BUG Delver list!
I still need help with my 75, specially the sideboard! =)

Thoughts?

CREATURES (14)
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

SORCERIES (9)
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

INSTANTS (18)
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure (one enough and go for a sylvan or liliana instead?)
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

LANDS (19) (i only own 2 trops and no mistys yet)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard: (I dont own flusterstorm, vendilion or snappy)
1 Murderous Cut
1 Golgari Charm (i dont own marsh casualties but am aware of the non match with true name)
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle (worth it for wastland decks?)
1 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce

Cheers and thanks in advance!