Miracle Control

So I did do some playing with the Promised End and wasn't exactly impressed. Assuming you were looking at Fabiano's Baltimore list, he only had one Nahiri. The thing about Aeon's Torn is it does nothing unless you ult Nahiri. The promised end tends to cost :8:-:9: in the late game, but can cost as little as :6:. You can basically assume Land, Instant, Sorcery, Artifact can happen with 2 EE, CB can die to give you enchantment, there are 3 creatures that can die, and an ulted Nahiri will give you planeswalker. So casting Emrakul isn't out of the question, but in my experience it is quite difficult. Fabiano had Fact or Fiction and a Predict to help dump extra types to accomplish this. Remember that many of us do still run Entreat the Angels, a card that requires a bit of setup and planning to use at all. Emrakul requires a lot more setup. Honestly I often found Emrakul not that good when cast. Too often, she time walked a top decking opponent. Going forward I'm considering playing her in the board, as i imagine she's a great in the mirror and in a few other long matchups.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

can you advocate running 3 force of will, 2 spell snare, 0 counterspell in a Miracles build that isn't the Legends version? Or is this combination only suited for the Legends build specifically?

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I don't have the experience to answer that question.

when will we get to see a Miracles article by Philipp Schönegger and/or Reid Duke? it's been over a year since either of them have written anything about Miracles. All articles pre-Eldrazi and also before Death and Taxes got their new toys. I'd really like to see how these guys have evolved Miracles over the last year. What's the best Ponder build? Mentors main, sideboard, or not at all? Thoughts and number of copies regarding Predict? Opinion of Miracles cutting their land count all the way down to 20? Best ways to board against and defeat matchups like Eldrazi and Death and Taxes? These are some of the things I'd like to hear about.

@drocker23

I don't know about Reid Duke but I'm friends with Schonegger and he's largely stopped playing Magic and is focusing on academics so I wouldn't expect many new articles from him.

EDIT: For those wondering my friendship with Schonegger is predicated on our mutual love of philsophy and not really magic.

I'm also looking for some advice on my current list. I went 3-3 at EW NA with an Enlightened Tutor build (2x E Tutor 2x RIP, 1 Energy Field, 2 Blood Moon 1 BtB mainboard) and while it was really really good at locking people out of the early and middle game it just was just far too reactive and not proactive enough ( I ran 2 Jace 1 Entreat main as my wincons) I've sinced switched up the list a bit and it plays a lot better but I'm looking some advice for a largish local event this weekend (roughly 40-60 people which is large for my legacy scene). The field includes Burn, Shardless, Sneak and Show, D&T, Grixis Delver, Miracles, Goblins, ANT, Eldrazi, Infect, 1 fish guy (but he hasn't shown up in awhile) and 1 guy that plays Dredge.

My Current list is:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Counterspell
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Preordain
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Energy Field
1 Back to Basics
5 Island
3 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:

1 Council's Judgement
1 Containment Priest
2 Peacekeeper
2 Wear // Tear
2 Blood Moon
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Entreat the Angels

is Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull still an effective sideboard plan vs. Eldrazi and Death and Taxes, or is Monastery Mentor strictly better?

Mentor is very effective at both gumming up the ground game and acting as a win condition. Speaking as someone who plays other decks against Miracles, not as the Miracles pilot, I would rather face Skull than Mentor. A 5/5 trumps a 4/4. A 5/5 does little against a trio of 1/1s with the option to self buff and open mana.

@derocker23 I wouldn't really consider Reid a "Miracles player". I would more so consider him a very good player who has played Miracles. I know Min spoke with him at Eternal Weekend and from what I understand - he doesn't know what the correct way to build Miracles is. He feels that its fundamentally incorrect to not play Monastery Mentor but at the same time he has always felt that a near creatureless version of the deck best fits with his play style and is better for a control strategy like Miracles. Since he doesn't know what direction to take the deck, it's why he's been gravitating to other decks like Elves and Burn for the past 6 months.

Also, regarding Peacekeeper. I wish that card was really good but it's just a very bad version of Moat. It gets hit by everything in the format, including Warping Wail from Eldrazi which is the main reason you want it to begin with. The literal only matchup it's good versus is Infect.

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Originally Posted by Shinwei

Apologies if this has been discussed already. I've used the search function on this thread for:

• "Emrakul, the Promised End"
• Emrakul
• "Promised End"

And didn't find any real discussion. I've noticed a few decklists that have put up results that are running [[Emrakul, the Promised End]], and I'm wondering if anyone has any insight to its effectiveness. If running [[Nahiri, the Harbinger]], why wouldn't you just run [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]]? Is it really realistic to be casting the Promised End?

Here are the decklists:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/506339
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/511595

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Originally Posted by phg22

So I did do some playing with the Promised End and wasn't exactly impressed. Assuming you were looking at Fabiano's Baltimore list, he only had one Nahiri. The thing about Aeon's Torn is it does nothing unless you ult Nahiri. The promised end tends to cost :8:-:9: in the late game, but can cost as little as :6:. You can basically assume Land, Instant, Sorcery, Artifact can happen with 2 EE, CB can die to give you enchantment, there are 3 creatures that can die, and an ulted Nahiri will give you planeswalker. So casting Emrakul isn't out of the question, but in my experience it is quite difficult. Fabiano had Fact or Fiction and a Predict to help dump extra types to accomplish this. Remember that many of us do still run Entreat the Angels, a card that requires a bit of setup and planning to use at all. Emrakul requires a lot more setup. Honestly I often found Emrakul not that good when cast. Too often, she time walked a top decking opponent. Going forward I'm considering playing her in the board, as i imagine she's a great in the mirror and in a few other long matchups.

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I played three mtgo leagues with variations of Gerard's list (1 Emrakul main and 1 board) and, while casting Emrakul was fun, he wasn't really helpful anywhere except in the mirror. Taking 10 infect or getting smashed by Eldrazi while you have Emrakul in hand probably means he shouldn't be plan #1.

There might be a slot for him in the board, but again he's just too slow if your Miracles opponent has already resolved Mentor. Who knows... maybe Gerard is on to something — I did pick up two copies of Emrakul after I saw the list, but I probably wouldn't run them at a GP, yet.

I have never liked mentor and still don't like it, but I have put two in my deck.
I don't like the idea of having to spend spells to protect it. Or needing to get value out of it. I am sure it will do what it does and win me some games, but meh. I would rather be countering everything and board wiping (which is why I came to miracles)

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Originally Posted by chaosjace

I have never liked mentor and still don't like it, but I have put two in my deck.
I don't like the idea of having to spend spells to protect it. Or needing to get value out of it. I am sure it will do what it does and win me some games, but meh. I would rather be countering everything and board wiping (which is why I came to miracles)

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I tend to agree. I'm not a fan of the super heavy mentor builds nor am I really a fan of mentor in the main at all. He's fine as a sideboard option I suppose.
But then the question becomes when you board it in, are you boarding out other win conditions? Or adding to?

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Originally Posted by chaosjace

I have never liked mentor and still don't like it, but I have put two in my deck.
I don't like the idea of having to spend spells to protect it. Or needing to get value out of it. I am sure it will do what it does and win me some games, but meh. I would rather be countering everything and board wiping (which is why I came to miracles)

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I really appreciate this comment, because I think your feelings on Mentor are more common than not. Traditional control players simply do not enjoy playing proactive creatures which is understandable, but I also think this is the main reason we don't see more Mentors.

The one pushback I would give you would be on "having to spend spells to protect it" or "needing to get value out of it." This is situational, and sometimes it's OK if your opponent kills your Mentor with no value trade. You have to pick your spots, and it's detrimental to feel like you absolutely must get max value out of the card at all times. If you feel that you are putting yourself in precarious positions by protecting your Mentor then you are likely being too aggressive with protection. I have heard a lot of people say what you are saying, so it's an important discussion point.

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Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy

@drocker23
I'm also looking for some advice on my current list. I went 3-3 at EW NA with an Enlightened Tutor build (2x E Tutor 2x RIP, 1 Energy Field, 2 Blood Moon 1 BtB mainboard) and while it was really really good at locking people out of the early and middle game it just was just far too reactive and not proactive enough

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Seems like you really don't want to play Helm, but I would run it in place of the Energy Field or the maindeck Back to Basics (even if tutoring up a 3 cmc for counterbalance is a nice thought). Also with 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder/2 Tutor I'd think you could cut Preordain for something more impactful (the Helm or second Jace maybe). Additionally I'd throw a Seal of Cleansing in the board over one of the Wear/Tear because E-Tutor! If you do keep Back to Basics main I'd imagine the 2 Blood Moons in the side are better served being the second Back to Basics and something like a Moat or Ensnaring Bridge.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

I really appreciate this comment, because I think your feelings on Mentor are more common than not. Traditional control players simply do not enjoy playing proactive creatures which is understandable, but I also think this is the main reason we don't see more Mentors.

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Seconding this!

E Tutor = Moat (MB) or Humility (SB)

I would also play 1 Vedalken Shackles at that point.

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Originally Posted by chaosjace

I have never liked mentor and still don't like it, but I have put two in my deck.
I don't like the idea of having to spend spells to protect it. Or needing to get value out of it. I am sure it will do what it does and win me some games, but meh. I would rather be countering everything and board wiping (which is why I came to miracles)

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It's this that leads me to play 1 or 2 Mentors in my SB. Everyone packs some form of creature removal G1, and I expect most of it to be sided out G2/3. I'd rather play a traditional control deck G1 and then tweak my strategy to the MU post-board.

Mentor was great in the cantrip meta era.

Time has changed and everyone is playing Chalice and/or Taxes effects against cantrips.

I prefer so much Entreat and Moat.. Also I would really give Avacyn a honest try.. not Miracle and strong wc with Karakas

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Originally Posted by drocker23

when will we get to see a Miracles article by Philipp Schönegger and/or Reid Duke? it's been over a year since either of them have written anything about Miracles. All articles pre-Eldrazi and also before Death and Taxes got their new toys. I'd really like to see how these guys have evolved Miracles over the last year. What's the best Ponder build? Mentors main, sideboard, or not at all? Thoughts and number of copies regarding Predict? Opinion of Miracles cutting their land count all the way down to 20? Best ways to board against and defeat matchups like Eldrazi and Death and Taxes? These are some of the things I'd like to hear about.

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Actually, Schonegger still writes articles to mtgmintcard :) You may check out right there.

My list I'm still messing with. Going for a more control build.

Lands 21

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains

Note: I want 3 red mana sources for Engineered Explosives and my sideboard cards. Not sure if I want 3rd Volcanic Island or Basic Mountain.

3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angel's
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Predict
1 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives

Note: Not sure if I want/need Predict in this build or not. With no mentors main, I question the need for Predict or whether these slots would be better served as more control cards. I feel like with this main deck, snapcaster Mage gets worse since there are fewer spells to flashback that either remove or counter something. Snapcaster is still a house with the sideboard though.

Sideboard

3 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear//Tear
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Kozilek's Return

Note: I did not include Moat since with only 2 Vendilion Cliques sideboard and no Karakas, I don't really have a way to take advantage of Moat. Yes, I have Entreat the Angels, but if you resolve Entreat, you're more than likely going to win anyway. I feel like Moats is great in the Legends build though because they also have Venser as an out to their own Moat if they need it. Also, I'm not sure if the split between Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast is even necessary. Pyroblast is supposed to be better with mentor since you can cast it and target anything, but are people attacking your red/pyro blasts with meddling mages or surgical extractions?

Anyways, let me know what you guys think. Are there any cards I'm missing? Comments and critiques are appreciated.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

Also, I'm not sure if the split between Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast is even necessary. Pyroblast is supposed to be better with mentor since you can cast it and target anything, but are people attacking your red/pyro blasts with meddling mages or surgical extractions?

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It happens every now and then. For example: Sometimes your opponent will cast extraction in response to one of your snapcaster triggers to make it fizzle.

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Originally Posted by chaosjace

I have never liked mentor and still don't like it, but I have put two in my deck.
I don't like the idea of having to spend spells to protect it. Or needing to get value out of it. I am sure it will do what it does and win me some games, but meh. I would rather be countering everything and board wiping (which is why I came to miracles)

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Mentor's strength, imho, is right after a Terminus/EE/Verdict. Say you Miracle on your own Upkeep (via SDT) or Draw step, and then proceed to drop Mentor on the same turn. That's a tremendous turnaround. Say it's an Entreat in your hand instead, you still have to durdle your way to find a brainstorm effect to set Entreat up, which might take several turns, and all the advantages from resolving a board wipe is gone at that point in time.

The issue with Mentor as SB only is that your opponent will bring in SB hate against SDT anyway. In other words, it's even harder to get value out of Mentor in SB matches. By MD Mentor, I gave myself a chance to Mentor + 2 SDT, pushing opponent out of this game 1.

At this point in time, DnT is such a popular trendy deck, Port and Ghost Quarters are at All Time High, at least the meta feels like that. Mentor just offers a lot more flexibility. I have once barely won because I was ghost quarter-ed and wasted down to just 1 White source. Thanks Lands and DnT.

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Originally Posted by icedagger

It happens every now and then. For example: Sometimes your opponent will cast extraction in response to one of your snapcaster triggers to make it fizzle.

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Not sure what your point is here, if your opponent just extracts whatever you target with snap it doesn't seem to matter what the name of that card is.