[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by Volrath

I do agree taht taking a critter is better then bouncing one, but consider the following.

Submerge is free
Submerge doens't have a upkeep cost.
Submerge can't be killed by a Pridemage(although, most poeple board them out against TT)

I have played with Harness for almost a year, but sometimes you want to bounce that Confidant or want to eot trick them with it.

Also, Submerge is also good against CB, Harness is not.

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The only good argument you gave is that Submerge is good against CB and that Harness isn't. That's completely true. But:

Why do you want to bounce a Dark Confidant if you can also have it? Dark Confidant is absolutely thé NUTS in this deck ^^.
Casting cost 1 isn't really dramatic is it? I know it's sorcery speed but common: casting cost 1 isn't bad.
Let me tell you about the upkeep cost: What do you want:

Pay 1 mana each turn and attack your opponent with a 4/5 goyf which he needs to handle or he loses
Pay 0 mana to bounce a Goyf, possibly removing it from the game. With no threath on the board.

Don't ask me the question, but what if he plays another Goyf when you have a Mind Harness'd Goyf? You would have died aswell when playing Submerge.

@ GUnit

I personally believe that my list is pretty good. Why can't I post my list to tell people about a possible new build of Tempo Threshold WITH (some) comments?
About the perfect sideboard:

There ís a perfect sideboard for your metagame. Some guys are just looking in a sort of tunnelvision. Just ask yourself: How does your metagame look like? What do I need to make these matchups better.

I think every sideboard should include this right now:

3-4 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm / or some other card because you don't play red
3/4 Mind Harness / Submerge
And flex slots

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

The only good argument you gave is that Submerge is good against CB and that Harness isn't. That's completely true. But:

Why do you want to bounce a Dark Confidant if you can also have it? Dark Confidant is absolutely thé NUTS in this deck ^^.
Casting cost 1 isn't really dramatic is it? I know it's sorcery speed but common: casting cost 1 isn't bad.
Let me tell you about the upkeep cost: What do you want:

Pay 1 mana each turn and attack your opponent with a 4/5 goyf which he needs to handle or he loses
Pay 0 mana to bounce a Goyf, possibly removing it from the game. With no threath on the board.

Don't ask me the question, but what if he plays another Goyf when you have a Mind Harness'd Goyf? You would have died aswell when playing Submerge.

@ GUnit

I personally believe that my list is pretty good. Why can't I post my list to tell people about a possible new build of Tempo Threshold WITH (some) comments?
About the perfect sideboard:

There ís a perfect sideboard for your metagame. Some guys are just looking in a sort of tunnelvision. Just ask yourself: How does your metagame look like? What do I need to make these matchups better.

I think every sideboard should include this right now:

3-4 Spell Pierce
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm / or some other card because you don't play red
3/4 Mind Harness / Submerge
And flex slots

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I sure hope you are kidding, read the card you praise so much and you will see why Confidants poses a problem vs harness.

Also, you mostly opperate on 2/3 mana, you can only keep the creature around for 3 turns and you cant even safely counter/ponder/cast goyfs/geese/bolts/fire/ice those turns.

I was confused ofcourse. Thought you were talking about Tarmogoyf but you were talking about Dark Confidant instead.
I know that Mind Harness is no answer to Dark Confidant. But seriously, how many decks do play Dark Confidant anymore?

Rock doesn't play it anymore.
Countertop only wants to go BANT or go red for Firespout
Is there any other deck else that might play him, that goes to the high table's?

The fact that CB often goes to the high tables and confidant/stalker/dreadnought/loam/pridemage still see play is often enough reason to play Submerge over Harnes these days.

And the Rock still plays confidants, so do certain BUG lists and some Loam decks.

Oups sorry though you were talking about Ugr thresh

Harness seems much more of a High Risk, High Reward card to me than Submerge, which doesn't suit my style of play at all. I don't need to blow my opponent out; I just need something that I can consistently rely on to squeak by with.

Against certain decks YOU need to be the agressor. Mind Harness enables that.

Rock doesn't play Confidants anymore. Tenminste niet in Nederland voor zover ik weet.

"The fact that CB often goes to the high tables and confidant/stalker/dreadnought/loam/pridemage still see play is often enough reason to play Submerge over Harnes these days."

Stalker doesn't see much play. They only play 2 if they play them. I'll take those two for granted.
I have 6 hard removal for Dreadnought, something UGR can't say.
Loam can't be dealt by either Submerge or Mind Harness. It isn't a creature. Nah, but seriously. Mind Harness is way better there.
Pridgemage gets boarded out almost all the time. Even if they keep them in: a U destroy a creature card is in fact pretty good, isn't it?
CB/top does see play ofcourse. When you're playing Mind Harness the only thing you'll need to do is keep CB/top from the board. But that happens to be the exact same when you're playing Submerge, isn't it? I mean, you can't win if they have a CB/Top active.

I think we can continue discussing about Mind Harness and Submerge. There are always examples where Submerge is better, but I believe that overall Mind Harness is better in my metagame. Dus ook die van jou.

You guys are thinking of Submerge too often as a defensive card. Its an offensive card. It clears out blockers and Time Walks them through CB. If they're terrible it can get rid of a creature but that doesn't happen often. Mind Harness forces you to tap out for your turn which is not what this deck wants to accomplish. Sure if you're behind and have no creatures or something, Mind Harness might randomly save you, but Submerge being free and just so amazing at dealing with creatures is all it needs to do. This deck isn't a control deck, it doesn't need to control the whole game. It just needs to win as quickly as possible before they have a chance to catch up with you. And Submerge is just so awesome at setting them back.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

I think we can continue discussing about Mind Harness and Submerge. There are always examples where Submerge is better, but I believe that overall Mind Harness is better in my metagame. Dus ook die van jou.

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Unless every deck in my metagame starts running nothing but Terravores, I don't think I will get rid of Submerge anytime soon. In my metagame, and in most metagames, I firmly believe that Submerge is the optimal choice, for the reasons explained by Trialbyfire.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

The only good argument you gave is that Submerge is good against CB and that Harness isn't. That's completely true. But:

Why do you want to bounce a Dark Confidant if you can also have it? Dark Confidant is absolutely thé NUTS in this deck ^^.

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Your not going to convince anyone by writing paragraphs based on impossibilities.

*Rock Player* Mind Harness is difficult but most of the time we bring in choke which makes that timeline for Harness drop drastically and, we're more than happy to not have to deal with you having Islands. Destroying/Racing a single critter is usually easy enough.

Submerge is a lot more problematic because we only play a couple of threats and a lot of shuffle effects (the fact that it's free is just a bonus). Granted, without a shuffle effect it's just a stall but sometimes that 1 turn can be enough.

This holds true for most other mid-ranged decks as well.

Hope you don't mind me adding to your conversation. Just thought it was a funny argument. Rock based decks still play Bob (at least about 90% of us).

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Hope you don't mind me adding to your conversation. Just thought it was a funny argument. Rock based decks still play Bob (at least about 90% of us).

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Aggro-Loam usually plays Bob, too.

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Originally Posted by Volt

Aggro-Loam usually plays Bob, too.

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Originally Posted by TrialByFire

You guys are thinking of Submerge too often as a defensive card. Its an offensive card. It clears out blockers and Time Walks them through CB. If they're terrible it can get rid of a creature but that doesn't happen often. Mind Harness forces you to tap out for your turn which is not what this deck wants to accomplish. Sure if you're behind and have no creatures or something, Mind Harness might randomly save you, but Submerge being free and just so amazing at dealing with creatures is all it needs to do. This deck isn't a control deck, it doesn't need to control the whole game. It just needs to win as quickly as possible before they have a chance to catch up with you. And Submerge is just so awesome at setting them back.

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

*Rock Player* Mind Harness is difficult but most of the time we bring in choke which makes that timeline for Harness drop drastically and, we're more than happy to not have to deal with you having Islands. Destroying/Racing a single critter is usually easy enough.

Submerge is a lot more problematic because we only play a couple of threats and a lot of shuffle effects (the fact that it's free is just a bonus). Granted, without a shuffle effect it's just a stall but sometimes that 1 turn can be enough.

This holds true for most other mid-ranged decks as well.

Hope you don't mind me adding to your conversation. Just thought it was a funny argument. Rock based decks still play Bob (at least about 90% of us).

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Thank you, my point exatly

lets sum this up.

Submerge is free, comes through a CB, can target any creature(without Shroud blablabla), can possibly be a time walk, has no further mana investment,is not destroyable(new word?)by a random predator/pridemage and can possibly remove the creature for good.

I think these are enough reasons for it to warrent a SB spot instead of Harness, unless the only creature played in your meta is Terravore.

The problem i have with Mind Harness is that i can't rely on it. They can get rid of it and this can bring you in more difficult situations. An Engineered explosives or a deed are cards you see often and they are problems for the harness.

I don't think harness is a bad choice, Submerge just seems better at the moment.

Well, frankly I disagree with all of you except the argument of Jarzonious and damionblackgear. I can't win any discussion by saying pretty weird stuff. Let's say that was a brainfart. I saw that most decks do play 4 Dark Confidant, so you're right about that. I'll play 2 Ghastly Demise and 4 Smother, from now on.

First, I post the metagame of our last Grand Prix Trial (65 players):

10 Bant (with or without Cb/top)
7 Landstill
7 Rock
7 Merfolk
5 Combo
2-3 Reanimator
2-3 Ichorid
About 25 "random" decks. It's unsure what they played. Selfmade decks and/or lower table decks that do not matter in any case.

Second, there are two version "on the market" for the Rock in Holland:

One with Recurring Nightmare
One without playing 7 discard, elspeth etc.

and one weird list:
3/4 Mattias Kres Rock

1 forest
1 plains
4 windswept heath
3 savannah
3 wasteland
1 nantuko monastery
1 verdant catacombs
3 scrubland
4 marsh flats
1 bayou

4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
4 knight of the reliquary
1 gaddock teeg
1 ethersworn cannonist
1 shriekmaw
1 eternal witness

3 elspeth, knight-errant
4 swords to plowshares
4 sensei's divining top
4 vindicate
3 orims chant
1 isochron scepter
1 umezawa's jitte
2 diabolic edict

The toplists don't play Tombstalker, and most play Dark Confidant.

To summarize: out of 65 players there were only about 7 Dark Confidant kind of decks. We can't even be sure if all the rock lists played there, actually played Dark Confidant. But let's just stick with that. It's a percentage of only 11% (rounded up). So a situation where you'll have a Mind Harness, with no smother's in hand and no counters in hand, will not usually show up. Does it?

@TrialByFire
Now lets start with Submerge. Your argument of Submerge being an offensive card can only true when you actually have a creature. So submerge is only good when you have a creature since you'll play it offensively by timewalking OR when your opponent fetches. Correct? Yes. Since we only have 8 creatures (well mine actually has 12, although you can't rely on Dark Confidant as a beater that much, it draws more creatures though) having every single time a creature on the board that actually sticks is pretty hard. Atleast, it showed up for about 1,5 years of extensive testing against Rock/Countertop.
Submerge are just not good enough when playing against good players. They don't fetch when they're winning and they certainly will keep your creatures from the board or just play bigger creatures than you. It's pretty annoying when you actually have a Submerge in your hand, but can't use it. I mean bouncing a creature doesn't really matter that much if you can't deal them 3 or 4 damage that turn. They'll simply play it again and start beating.

Well, first I thought you guys just haven't played Mind Harness at all. But this is just weird:

"Sure if you're behind and have no creatures or something, Mind Harness might randomly save you, but Submerge being free and just so amazing at dealing with creatures is all it needs to do. This deck isn't a control deck, it doesn't need to control the whole game. It just needs to win as quickly as possible before they have a chance to catch up with you. And Submerge is just so awesome at setting them back."

1. Mind Harness deals better with creatures than you might think.
2. Mind Harness gains CONTROL of your opponent's creature. So you either swing for 7 (Geese + Goyf as an example) or for more/less. Think this is a faster clock than timewalking once. If you don't have a creature on the board, you'll simply will ride to victory in most cases if you can protect it.
3. The upkeep cost isn't that hard to overcome. Fine pay 3 mana at sorcery speed. If it wins you the game it doesn't matter, does it? You play 8 counters that are free. Use them.
4. Why does Mind Harness means going on the control role? Doesn't it actually makes you faster? See above.

@ damionblackgear

With you playing choke doesn't really change the discussion about Submerge v. Choke. Our chances of winning the game with a choke on the table, whatever removal we might bring in the game, will be slim. I'll think Rock is more afraid of 8 possible Goyfs than from one bounce. I know that the Rock do play a lot of shuffle effects. But are you really going to shuffle when you know your opponent has a submerge in hand or in his deck? Speechless......

@ Volrath

You become predictable. You kinda said it all at your previous post where you already summarized it, however you completely ignored my post. So I'll think I'll have to make you aware of my post.

But this statement is weird again:
"I think these are enough reasons for it to warrent a SB spot instead of Harness, unless the only creature played in your meta is Terravore."

Read the card, please. It can also gain control of red creatures aswell.

Submerge has a lot of When's to be honest:

• Can possibly be a time walk, this is only good when you actually have a creature.
• Pridemage usually gets sideboard out against TT.
• You'll loose when a Countertop engine is online. It's just a matter of time, you'll need a creature on the table already to have a chance.
• Can only remove creatures, when they fetch. But who fetches when they're winning?
• Personally, I'll like to take the investment of either tapping 1,2,3,4 mana to win the game.

Anyway, to summarize:

1. Probably you haven't played with Mind Harness, since you come up with some weird stuff.
2. My list plays black. That means I don't play burn and Ice, Mind Harness does make my clock faster.

You guys need to test the card. There is nothing more to say. I think I said nearly every argument there is to play Mind Harness. If you don't test, well, I don't really care, maybe I convinced one. I'm satisfied by that feeling.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

You guys need to test the card. There is nothing more to say. I think I said nearly every argument there is to play Mind Harness. If you don't test, well, I don't really care, maybe I convinced one. I'm satisfied by that feeling.

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Honestly, I just can agree.

I actually tested it in merfolk but am packing them now in my can. thresh side -
it won me with merfolk my 2 matchups against zoo and one against goblins at the last tourney.
Yeah, it's THAT good.
I know I don't show any arguments but well, cenarius said it all and I don't want to repeat. Just making clear, that it's not just him having good results with the card.

Whatever, I'm done having an across ocean pissing contest. If Mind Harness works for you, great. Submerge works for me. Other players, test both and see which one you like better. I am in no way saying that Mind Harness is a bad card, I've actually won a bunch of games with it previously when it was in my sideboard. I just think that Submerge is better suited to the way I play. Discussion ended.

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Originally Posted by TrialByFire

Whatever, I'm done having an across ocean pissing contest. If Mind Harness works for you, great. Submerge works for me. Other players, test both and see which one you like better. I am in no way saying that Mind Harness is a bad card, I've actually won a bunch of games with it previously when it was in my sideboard. I just think that Submerge is better suited to the way I play. Discussion ended.

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I'm interested to know if someone is willing to test the UGb tempo threshold I posted on the previous page with me. With -1 Ghastly Demise +1 Smother. We can get faster results about what is better, red or black. And in what metagame's they're better. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

I'm interested to know if someone is willing to test the UGb tempo threshold I posted on the previous page with me. With -1 Ghastly Demise +1 Smother. We can get faster results about what is better, red or black. And in what metagame's they're better. Etc.

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I have played some black thresh on MWS, but with Pulses and whatnot instead of Demise. I think I ran 3 Smothers, 3 Pulses. The problem is, I don't have the cards to test the deck IRL.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

@ damionblackgear

With you playing choke doesn't really change the discussion about Submerge v. Choke. Our chances of winning the game with a choke on the table, whatever removal we might bring in the game, will be slim. I'll think Rock is more afraid of 8 possible Goyfs than from one bounce. I know that the Rock do play a lot of shuffle effects. But are you really going to shuffle when you know your opponent has a submerge in hand or in his deck? Speechless......

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To be honest with you, most of the time we have to. Knowing it's there doesn't matter. We know you play Stifle and still fetch, we suspect Submerge will come in the next game(s) and still shuffle. We can't play it safe becuase we don't have that luxury. And 1 creature gone is better than you locked out of your lands to actually present a threat.