[Deck] Dredge

I haven't played against Elves so much, as it's not really present in my metagame, but I think I wouldn't board out Therapies as well.

I could understand that Therapy wouldn't be as good if you didn't have an obvious target. But I think there are one or two targets that would be worth discarding.

One time I played against it I cast Therapy for Nettle Sentinel on my first turn hitting 1. I won that game on turn 4 with Iona on Green and my opponent told me that he would have gone off on turn 3 with that one Sentinel. Basically, each Sentinel you therapy away makes them one turn slower, which is pretty acceptable. And if they're on the play they will rarely play Sentinel on turn 1. They'll rather play a Mana elf, or else they'll be one turn slower again.

Also, I really liked to have additional Therapies beyond the first, so I could easily get their Heritage Druid/Birchlore Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, NO or whatever combo piece they would probably need most in the following turns.

So my board against combo elves would probably be something like:

- 4 Careful Study, - 1 Golgari Thug (Dredgers from 12 down to 11), - 1 Ichorid + 3 Ancient Grudge, + 3 Firestorm

Depending on the number and kind of hate they bring in it might as well be 4 Grudges + 2 Firestorm. Nature's Claim wouldn't be my call against that deck. What hate should mono-G combo play? Leyline is highly unlikely (no black) and Wheel of Sun and Moon looks a bit slow (I mean it takes one turn to cast it, which could also be the turn they go off).

My board versus Elves was +3 Firestorm +3 Grudge +1 Darkblast -1 Primus -3 Study -2 Ichorid -1 Thug IIRC. Probably cut one more thing for Chosen come to think of it.

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Originally Posted by Sunsatzu

with silmple no DR target led-less dredge vs elves

-4 Breakthrough
-2 Cabal Therapy

+4 Ancient Grudge
+1 Iona
+1 Ancestor's Chosen

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Ancestor's Chosen doesn't even beat Elves. Boarding out Breakthrough against combo decks makes you super slow. I'd board out the Ichorids and probably leave Firestorm on the bench.

Ancestor's Chosen can probably beat them if all they have is Grapeshot, but there's not a lot stopping them even then from just bashing with a Glimpse-fueled army. You're probably going to either win or lose very quickly.

I would want to try keeping Firestorm just to see what I could make happen. If you have 3 Ichorids you probably board them all out; I could see keeping them in if you have 4.

I've been experimenting with trimming down to 14 lands against combo decks and I've had a lot of success.

You might keep one Ichorid if you need to kickstart a Bridge after a Breakthrough to grind out a long game. I don't think that would actually happen vs Elves.

Firestorm is fine but against most beatdown decks you don't have to start dredging immediately if you wait until turn two to Firestorm them. Elves is quite capable of playing Elf, go, any creature, go, and you probably have to pull the trigger against that. The problem is that they can kill you on turn three without much trouble from that situation, and if you have Breakthrough to go with Firestorm they were dead anyway so I want to win the hard games etc etc.

I am not excited about my ability to clock Elves without Ichorid. They can chump block a Troll for just about forever, and possibly actual forever against Wirewood Symbiote.

It seems like I would rather have Firestorm than Tribe against Elves. I want all the blue draw in the world so I have a shot in hell of actually racing them. And Firestorm gives you a way to interact, which is desperately needed. I would rather Firestorm them and have them rebuild then to have them just turn 3 me while I'm stuck with random extra dorks in my hand.

Oh. I was planning on burying them with Zealot. Your points about Troll are well taken.

Yeah, your best plan is probably to Zealot them, but I still think being able to make an Ichorid or two is important.

Then again, if you're getting deep enough in your deck to Zealot them, you've probably cast a shitton of draw spells and only need 1 Ichorid. So maybe you can cut them. You're not going to grind them out with Ichorids in the lnog game and you can't even profitably swing (although they can't swing back until they're lethal).

A recent T8 Dredge without LED to look at:
http://www.morphling.de/printview.php?c=1389&d=5

I'm beginning to wonder if going full-on crazy with bloodghasts might be worthwhile. So far, I'm looking at the following MD:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair

4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
Spells [18]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass (Pain is better than impermanency for Dredge, IMO)
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Bloodghast is pretty bad against wastelands, put pretty good at giving you a lot of bodies for swarming, forcing opponents to pop crypts earlier, making you less reliant on Bridge From Below, and giving you legs versus Swords. The deck does lose a little bit of the "I win" factor by shaving a DR and a target, and running Dakmor Salvage is Eh at best.

Your list looks good. Bloodghast has always been a house for me in Vintage, and especially in sideboarded games because of its ability to fight through hate. This is partly because it's a creature light format, so I always assumed it wouldn't be as good in Legacy since the format is filled with big blockers. I don't play Legacy Dredge, but recently I tested against BG Dredge and found it to be much more annoying to play against than the normal Dredge lists, so I think the card should definitely be tested some more. Most BG lists I have seen so far have cut Tribe for BG, which just seems bad since Tribe is too good. Fitting both BG and Tribe in the same deck seems like total win-win on paper, and if the speed of the deck isn't hampered too much by BG and Paradise, then I think it should make the deck more resilient and just stronger overall.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

I'm beginning to wonder if going full-on crazy with bloodghasts might be worthwhile. So far, I'm looking at the following MD:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair

4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
Spells [18]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass (Pain is better than impermanency for Dredge, IMO)
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Bloodghast is pretty bad against wastelands, put pretty good at giving you a lot of bodies for swarming, forcing opponents to pop crypts earlier, making you less reliant on Bridge From Below, and giving you legs versus Swords. The deck does lose a little bit of the "I win" factor by shaving a DR and a target, and running Dakmor Salvage is Eh at best.

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I like that list a lot. Been testing similar bloodghast list as well but I dropped Salvage in my list coz I didn't like wasting a draw for dredge 2.

EDIT: added the list I'm testing for comments and suggestions

// Creatures (29)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
2 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Sun Titan

// Spells (13)
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Careful Study

// Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below

// Lands (14)
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Gemstone Mine

10 dredgers, 10 gold lands, 10 discard outlets (PImp, Tribe, CS), 10 draw spells (BT, CS, CC), 10 free creatures (Ghast, Narc, Ichorid)

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Originally Posted by SHABOOGS

10 dredgers is worse, 10 gold lands is worse, 10 discard outlets (PImp, Tribe, CS) is worse, 10 draw spells (BT, CS, CC) is worse, 10 free creatures (Ghast, Narc, Ichorid)is slightly better

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Doesn't seem worth it at all.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

Doesn't seem worth it at all.

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10 dredgers is slightly worse from the traditional 11, 10 gold lands isn't worse since 10 gold lands is normal in traditional builds, 10 discard outlets (PImp, Tribe, CS) is slightly worse from the traditional 11, 10 draw spells (BT, CS, CC) is slightly worse from the traditional 11, 10 free creatures (Ghast, Narc, Ichorid) is better from the traditional 7. I think this is a more accurate description and is worth testing at the very least.

How is this a deck to beat now?

Recent Top 8 with LED version, 3rd place;
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=4844

What do you guys think? Is that how a LED version should look?

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Originally Posted by RexFTW

How is this a deck to beat now?

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No-one knows..

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Originally Posted by menace13

Recent Top 8 with LED version, 3rd place;
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=4844

What do you guys think? Is that how a LED version should look?

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No.

I'm really interested in how he won his games in that tournament. Certainly not by casting Putrid Imps, because he will never have one of his 6 rainbow lands in hand together with Imp I guess. And he will probably not have activated a Coliseum.

Also, it must have been a tournament without graveyard hate. 3 Chains as anti hate is pretty optimistic. In turn, he decides to have a reactive sideboard with Mindbreak Trap and artifact Grave hate. Dredge and reactive simply doesn't fit imho.

The Phantom Nishoba is probably a joke and he used it only because he counldn't find a Vizzerdrix.

And cheers for the Relic in Dredge sideboards. Makes Tarmogoyfs smaller like a champ, which will certainly be relevant if you battle without your graveyard, I imagine. Too bad you can't dredge the Relic cantrip...

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How is this a deck to beat now?

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No-one knows..

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I know. And shouldn't be the only one tbh.

Excerpt from The DTBF Philosophy & Deck Selection

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So how are decks selected for the DTBF?

Rather than relying on arbitrary selection or decision-making based on conjecture which can be tainted by personal bias, decks are selected for the DTBF based on their performance at recent, large, competitive Legacy tournaments. Decks which make up a very large portion of the metagame are considered DTB's. Decks which are less prevalent but appear multiple times are considered DTW's. Archetypes which appear multiple times are considered ATW's.

The data used for selection is based upon Top 8's from the most recent Legacy tournaments with 33 or more players. European, Japanese, and other non-American tournament data is included in this process, because there is a thriving, well-developed Legacy community in places other than America, and their results are relevant.

For the sake of currency and relevance, the DTBF contents will be revised on the first of every month. The data from the most recent ten tournaments will replace the previous data.

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Originally Posted by Izor

No.

I'm really interested in how he won his games in that tournament. Certainly not by casting Putrid Imps, because he will never have one of his 6 rainbow lands in hand together with Imp I guess. And he will probably not have activated a Coliseum.

Also, it must have been a tournament without graveyard hate. 3 Chains as anti hate is pretty optimistic. In turn, he decides to have a reactive sideboard with Mindbreak Trap and artifact Grave hate. Dredge and reactive simply doesn't fit imho.

The Phantom Nishoba is probably a joke and he used it only because he counldn't find a Vizzerdrix.

And cheers for the Relic in Dredge sideboards. Makes Tarmogoyfs smaller like a champ, which will certainly be relevant if you battle without your graveyard, I imagine. Too bad you can't dredge the Relic cantrip...
]

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Coliseum has great synergy with LED, but 6 lands with only 4 being rainbow is low. You are right, his meta looks like all combo and FoW decks. The top 8 has 10 gy hate cards out of 120 slots. The combo decks did not even bother to slot anything for the GY. Maybe his choice of LED was correct in an enviroment of half combo and half FoW with 10 gy hate cards total in top 8, as were the Traps.

And I agree with everything else, The Nishoba<Ancestor's Chosen/Sphinx, would like to see where he used Relics and how.

Anyone playing a LED list or knows of other top 8s with that version?

How does LED improve the MU against combo and FoW decks? The first turn wins via LED is a very very very rare occurance. I think the pilot got lucky with his MUs on that day coz that build is very inconsistent IMHO.