Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
DrJones
Can you adapt to FoW? no, unless you don't cast spells. Therefore, Force of Will is broken, and it's so obvious for everyone not heavily invested in that card that isn't funny.
Who cares if a card is "fun" as that's just a super subjective factor anyway. And saying that you can't adapt to Force of Will is a silly statement. You don't have to adapt to it, unless you're playing a bad deck in the first place. A statement like that makes you look like the kid that keeps running its cute 3-cards combo deck into it and complains about not having fun. Bottom line is, you should either be playing a deck that isn't hurt that much by Force of Will OR be playing a combo deck with enough protection against it.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'm pretty sure SFM will eventually become less popular. People playing U/W Stoneblade will get tired of losing to Grip/Grudge/Predator over and over. It's perfectly reasonable in other decks, however.
@Phoenix Ignition: I feel your pain. I really want to play 'Tog again. But it's not like they're trash cards that aren't worth anything. Legacy is cyclical. It's where all the good, old cards come to die and then eventually come back again. Innistrad is a GY based block. I'd be keeping an eye on older cards like Mongrel, Mongoose, and other cards like that. I wouldn't even be surprised to see Madness make a return in the next set. It's incredibly flavorful and would fit in perfectly with the horror theme.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Can we please have mystical tutor back .
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
coraz86
For my part, I hope they err towards the trend they were on of printing more skill-rewarding cards like KotR and Vendillion Clique, which are bonkers in the right decks but unplayable in others and which aren't knee-jerk inclusions or "oops, I win" cards. I'm glad Tarmogoyf is approaching that status (check out
Eli Kassis' report from the Star City Open he made the finals of, for instance).
This is more my point, the old win condition creatures all had some level of making you actually play for the win. Anyone can drop 3 goyfs and win, but before you had to at least find a way to get threshold fast, find a way to protect your Phyrexian Negator, find a way to get lots of cards in your graveyard while still being able to protect psychatog, find a way to not die before you could drop a bomb like Spiritmonger, etc. Now it's just drop Goyf, don't lose for 3 turns, I win!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lancer
You cannot have almost 20 years of Magic cards without new cards becoming better then older cards. For years Juzám Djinn is seen as most powerful black creature for the mana cost with the lowest drawback and now we have Abyssal Persecutor that is more powerful with the ability to fly and trample and it's drawback is easier to fix then the 1 life lose per turn as Old Djinn.
How is finding a kill condition harder for a black deck than losing 1 life per turn? I think Persecutor is a great example of printing a new card that can be usable but doesn't just destroy the format. It needs the proper deck to be good, at which point it can be very good.
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On the otherhand, most of the creatures you listed are still playable except phyrexian negator (he was only played in Type 1/Vintage). There are players that would perfer to use hypnotic specter over Vampire Nighthawk.
K, now I know you're just messing with me. When's the last time you've seen werebear used? How about psychatog? Spiritmonger??? Really??? He is not playable in any deck at all, probably ever again.
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Modern is a sad joke. I'm not sure if the intent was to replace extended or make a budet format for younger players, the only people that Modern does hurts is Casual Legacy, Budget Legacy, EDH and Modern players because the cards are jumping in value. Adding to the joke is players assuming that modern staples will be reprinted because legacy has the reserve policy. While that might be true there is a another policy that wizards has (they dont tell us publicly ~ but it's noticeable) wizards dont reprint magic cards that exceed 40 dollars. Bob/Goyf are going to follow the same fate as Force of Will and by next year the Shock Lands will not be reprinted even though wizards announce the return of Ravnica next year, they are either going to make a newer version of dual lands or give us something like: Murmuring Bosk.
So this entire "Modern is a joke" rant only covers the cost? I'm confused, I own a playset of every playable card in legacy and am not worried about spending money on cards. Who on this site builds budget decks anymore? Maybe 2-3 people? It could cost the exact same price as Legacy and I'm still going to play it because A: I hate a format where you watch Show and Tell 15/15 vs Natural Order 10/10 vs Marit-Ladge 20/20s where you can't play rogue decks because there literally are best decks now, and B: Legacy does cost too much to get into for most players and therefore northern California has no Legacy scene whatsoever. This means I don't have to play standard, a format which I've always hated.
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In the end players will soon realize that they can play their 'expensive' modern cards in legacy and legacy advantage is more cards. Like I said Modern is a sad joke.
But people don't want to spend 300$ on a playset of Duals, they would much rather spend 120 and be assured of a format that is going to receive support from Wizards. Do you really think Legacy is going to be around in major tournaments (Grand prix-like) in 2 years?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julian23
Who cares if a card is "fun" as that's just a super subjective factor anyway. And saying that you can't adapt to Force of Will is a silly statement. You don't have to adapt to it, unless you're playing a bad deck in the first place. A statement like that makes you look like the kid that keeps running its cute 3-cards combo deck into it and complains about not having fun. Bottom line is, you should either be playing a deck that isn't hurt that much by Force of Will OR be playing a combo deck with enough protection against it.
Funny is a word with many meanings, and I don't think you picked the correct one to read my sentence. I was using "funny" as "weird", and there's nothing weird about you being unable to fight it, when Force of Will is able to stop any attempt you make, at the cost of a dead card in their hand, plus your best spell (after you paid for it), plus your turn, plus one life.
To correct your post: you can't play around Force of Will, that's the whole reason Force of Will decks have a winning streak in this game so incredibly and absurdly long that you can't pretend it's happenstance without looking like an ill-intentioned moron and a cynic. Note that you didn't even say "play around Force of Will" in your reply, you had to say "isn't hurt THAT much by it", proving the point.
Historically, formats have been dominated either by cards that didn't have an answer in their format except themselves (Lin Sivvi, FoW, Jitte), or by cards that, while "answerable" in a vacuum, in practice those answers proved to be very few, narrow, weak, and easily bypassed by a heavily played card in the same deck (Dragonstorm, cawblade, etc). Of course, you can design your whole deck to minimize FoW's impact and have a fair chance against it... until the opponent sides it out and sides in 4 cards that rapes your deck because it's too linear, like what happens with Dredge, Zoo and Burn.
Now, I don't say you necessarily have to ban the cards, a better solution, obviously, would be to print answers to these cards. Then enter Tom "Great Sable Stag" LaPille and Randy "Silver Knight" Buehler, and say that printing proper hate towards blue decks isn't fun (disclaimer: they played blue decks with 24 counterspells in them), so they print stupid cards that don't answer anything, and get surprised when they don't work in the meta. Then, you have Devin Low admitting that Force of Will decks are actually miles above the rest (even mana drain decks), but that banning the card is outside of consideration.
So, we get a card that it's unanswerable, wins all tournaments, will not get banned, and no hate will be printed. What do you get when you sum all these facts? You end with a format like current's legacy, where the only Top decks are a combo deck using "FoW" in "combo-mode" (that's it, the broken use), and an aggro deck using FoW as a "free timewalk" (that's it, the other broken use). I wouldn't mind a control deck using it as a control card, just like I wouldn't mind a player using black lotus to cast a Sedge Troll, but black lotus wasn't banned for its interaction with Sedge Troll, and players don't bring "lotus troll" decks to tournaments.
I agree that this doom scenario wasn't as patently obvious for the rest of you to see until WotC printed "Force of Will jr." and players could put both in their deck, no longer having to rely on brainstorm to find it. By the way, this might be the reason why some sourcers feel now safe to ask for the banning of brainstorm, hoping they'll be able to keep playing 12 free counters for three more months, lol.
What it's happening there, is that the players of the broken deck want to pick the card in their deck they prefer to see banned: in summary, choosing the card that doesn't affect their decks at all, the one they can easily replace, the one that allows them to still keep winning Lotus, Duals, and other +200$ cards in tournaments without actually having to compete. That's it, until people stop playing tournaments just to subsidize them legacy and vintage staples, without a chance to win.
And what I don't want, is to see people no longer play a game they enjoy because the "bullies" have taken the format as an hostage. I want a competitive tournament environment, not a shady setup to rip off players.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phoenix Ignition
How is finding a kill condition harder for a black deck than losing 1 life per turn? I think Persecutor is a great example of printing a new card that can be usable but doesn't just destroy the format. It needs the proper deck to be good, at which point it can be very good.
It's not as hard outside of standard (and maybe standard too), the problem with old Djinn is that players would use moat/pacifism to prevent the guy from attacking and all he would do is tick at life away.
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K, now I know you're just messing with me. When's the last time you've seen
werebear used? How about
psychatog?
Spiritmonger??? Really??? He is not playable in any deck at all, probably ever again.
You'll be amazed what goes on the kitchen table.
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So this entire "Modern is a joke" rant only covers the cost? I'm confused, I own a playset of every playable card in legacy and am not worried about spending money on cards. Who on this site builds budget decks anymore? Maybe 2-3 people? It could cost the exact same price as Legacy and I'm still going to play it because A: I hate a format where you watch Show and Tell 15/15 vs Natural Order 10/10 vs Marit-Ladge 20/20s where you can't play rogue decks because there literally are best decks now, and B: Legacy does cost too much to get into for most players and therefore northern California has no Legacy scene whatsoever. This means I don't have to play standard, a format which I've always hated.
Yes its a joke when the intent is starting a "budget format" when the cards are already out of print for over 5 years.
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But people don't want to spend 300$ on a playset of Duals, they would much rather spend 120 and be assured of a format that is going to receive support from Wizards. Do you really think Legacy is going to be around in major tournaments (Grand prix-like) in 2 years?
Sure it's called gambling, so if Star City drops Legacy somebody else would pick it up.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DrJones
To correct your post: you can't play around Force of Will, that's the whole reason Force of Will decks have a winning streak in this game so incredibly and absurdly long that you can't pretend it's happenstance without looking like an ill-intentioned moron and a cynic.
I mentioned several ways you can play around Force of Will in my post on the last page. I would argue that you're either naive or blind if you believe it can't be. Again, trading 2 cards and 1 life for 1 card is not fundamentally unfair in any way, shape, or form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lancer
You'll be amazed what goes on the kitchen table.
It's important to recognize that almost every poster in this thread is framing their assertions from the context of organized competitive play. The kitchen table is simply not a major consideration for most of the regular members of this site, and if you approach conversations like it is, there's going to be a lot of miscommunication.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lancer
You'll be amazed what goes on the kitchen table.
And I'm out.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
54 Missteps out of 64 possible at the last Starcity Open yesterday in the top 16. Only 3 non blue decks - Dredge /the winner/, Zoo and GW aggro with Missteps. Two decks without missteps.
For the very first time I think that this card just beat FoW in numbers - 51 copies and also Brainstorm - only 36 copies /yes, may be thanks to the large numbers of blue aggro deck/.
Enjoy the healthy meta !
Re: All B/R update speculation.
DrJones why don't you switch over to modern? That format is without FoW and it looks extremely healthy (:laugh:) since not having free timewalks (:laugh:) means that any deck can compete.
Also the argument of free winnings when you play a FoW deck is just absurd, as can be seen from last Legacy GP or for example last SCG open where Dredge took first place. Not to mention all the legacy tournaments in Europe where Maverick usually beats all those FoW decks by pure card quality and takes down the tournament...
The main culprit of a blue heavy format (though Legacy was always blue centric) is definitely Mental Misstep. Format between the Survival banning and New Phyrexia release was wide open - even with that free timewalk, counterspell and game ender that is FoW around...
Ideally Misstep will get the axe in next update on 20th, but knowing Wizards they won't change anything and will just focus bannings update on their new cashcow - Modern
Re: All B/R update speculation.
There is nothing wrong with mental misstep, it's the new glue in legacy.
Also, I thought Mental Misstep hurts Dredge. Seriously you guy need to cool down.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I will just give up on this. DrJones just seems to be a horrible player. Give me a warning for this, I don't care because it's the truth. This feels like bashing your head against a wall, trying to explain a to a newbie why getting your spells countered by Force of Will is actually not that bad.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julian23
I will just give up on this. DrJones just seems to be a horrible player. Give me a warning for this, I don't care because it's the truth. This feels like bashing your head against a wall, trying to explain a to a newbie why getting your spells countered by Force of Will is actually not that bad.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH.
DrJones is very annoying, with his nonsense theory's.
Srsly, there is nothing wrong with force :S, I play maverick, And I am absurdly happy when I see them Fow'ing my zenith, while looking at my hand and seeing, Knight, Stoneforge, Thrun.
There is nothing "broken" about Fow, As you can see, fow is getting cut from a lot of decklist. And lists that do play them often play only 3. When I play No rug or something. I am always annoyed when I have to use a fow and discard my other goodies, like clique/brainstorm.
I am alos very annoyed that you know so little about the game, the meta. People who don't know legacy either will read your posts, and think that it is the truth.
If you think the card is unanswerable, you sir, are an awfull players. Ever heard of the term: baiting?
You should go start playing Modern, From what I hear it's really awesome. Combo slugfests are the best! Who likes to play games longer then 5 minutes anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DrJones
And what I don't want, is to see people no longer play a game they enjoy because the "bullies" have taken the format as an hostage. I want a competitive tournament environment, not a shady setup to rip off players.
Srsly? You sir, are the biggest troll I have ever seen on a message board.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lancer
There is nothing wrong with mental misstep, it's the new glue in legacy.
Also, I thought Mental Misstep hurts Dredge. Seriously you guy need to cool down.
This is so true.
Wizards gives us a new way to deal with Brainstorm and Swords, playable in any color and everybody keeps saying ''blue is getting stronger'' ? do you realize how much Goblin lists became better just for the possibility of playing 2 Missteps in the maindeck? Do you realize how good is to have an answer to Swords,Reanimate, Putrid Imp, or High Tide even if you play Zoo? Grow balls, play 4 Missteps in your nonblue decks and stop hating.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kiblast
This is so true.
Wizards gives us a new way to deal with Brainstorm and Swords, playable in any color and everybody keeps saying ''blue is getting stronger'' ? do you realize how much Goblin lists became better just for the possibility of playing 2 Missteps in the maindeck? Do you realize how good is to have an answer to Swords,Reanimate, Putrid Imp, or High Tide even if you play Zoo? Grow balls, play 4 Missteps in your nonblue decks and stop hating.
How did goblins get better if the deck dropped off the face of the earth after the printing of mental misstep? Mental misstep gave every deck the best possible answer to goblins best plays, a turn 1 vial or lackey and they don't even have to pay mana.
Running more non goblin cards in goblins hurts goblin lackey, goblin ringleader and gemplam incinerator.
Please explain how all of this is good for goblins?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lt. Quattro
How did goblins get better if the deck dropped off the face of the earth after the printing of mental misstep? Mental misstep gave every deck the best possible answer to goblins best plays, a turn 1 vial or lackey and they don't even have to pay mana.
Running more non goblin cards in goblins hurts goblin lackey, goblin ringleader and gemplam incinerator.
Please explain how all of this is good for goblins?
A friend of mine who's been playing Goblins for ages in nearly all constructed formats thinks Mental Misstep makes the deck better, too. His main reason is that most decks had good cards against Goblins and now have to replace something to run Missteps. If it's Daze, there's only FoW left to answer fast Matrons or Ringleaders; if it's Stifle, those same goblins, fetchlands and Wasteland can roam free; if it's Spell Snare, hasty Piledrivers and sideboard cards have one less problem to worry about; if it's removal, good for Piledrivers and Warchiefs; and so on. Of course Vial isn't as happy as before, but the friend states that a card that's good only against Vial and Lackey rather than a card that was generally more versatile leaves the deck in a better position than it seems. The thing is people are somehow convinced that Goblins is now unplayable and thus don't play it.
I tend to agree with that although I don't play Goblins very often. At least the argument seems logical to me.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Goblins has no card draw sans gempalm incinerator, so you literally have to have misstep in hand when they play their one drop. You can't brainstorm into it like the blue decks. And it's a horrible topdeck later on in goblins since you don't run brainstorm you can't just shuffle it back in. And the card doesn't work well with ringleader last I heard mental misstep wasn't a tribal instant - goblin card.
Mental misstep is broken. I hope they ban it on the 20th; it's getting to be like vintage where you start out with 4 force, 4 brainstorm, 4 misstep, 4 stoneforge, 2+ equipment's, to start a decklist and the rest is your manabase and some mild tweaks here and there. Mental misstep has made legacy worse; I'll be honest, I absolutely hate the way the metagame looks right now. Everyone is slinging missteps left and right even the nonblue decks are just to fight the ridiculousness that is misstep. The dredge player who just won the 5K yesterday who is also on these boards said he DDD's just to avoid misstep because misstep counters every spell dredge plays, making is hard to combo out.
Force of will isn't broken when it counters something like a silvergill adept or duress. The only reason force is played is because without it people are dogs to combo decks smashing them when they have only 4 misstep's to try to stop the combo player on turn 1. If you want a broken format go play modern with the current banlist. No force of will lulz I'll just win on turn 2 with this blazing shoal infect deck lol.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
How is "one of the best and most played" synonymous with "needs to be banned"? Swords to Plowshares is one of the best and most played cards in the format. Does it need to be banned? Ditto Force of Will. Ditto Wasteland. Ditto Mental Misstep. Who decides which "best" cards are fine and which ones should be banned?
I didn't say Tarmogoyf needed to be banned, I said I would ban it. I don't share the view that banning is something that should only be done as a last resort. There's plenty of formats in this game, now more than ever; the Legacy banned list should be kept small, but should be managed to maximize the variance and strategic elements of the format. And there's a certain amount of tension between the two but Goyf is still the best, easiest win condition in damn near every deck, and certainly in every deck that's not built around maximizing another kill condition. People may be afeared of Proggy, but without 8 Goyfs NO Rug would be a pretty sad one trick pony. Tombstalker may be more of a threat in TA but is harder to play with and way worse in multiples. Ditto to KotR in Zoo or Maverick or Bant. Goyf is bad for the same reason you complain about Mental Misstep being bad; it's dumb easy to stick in any deck and wreck face with. Unlike Mental Misstep I don't see it making up for that by slowing the format down and giving non-blue decks an answer to combo.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheInfamousBearAssassin
I didn't say Tarmogoyf needed to be banned, I said I would ban it. I don't share the view that banning is something that should only be done as a last resort. There's plenty of formats in this game, now more than ever; the Legacy banned list should be kept small, but should be managed to maximize the variance and strategic elements of the format. And there's a certain amount of tension between the two but Goyf is still the best, easiest win condition in damn near every deck, and certainly in every deck that's not built around maximizing another kill condition. People may be afeared of Proggy, but without 8 Goyfs NO Rug would be a pretty sad one trick pony. Tombstalker may be more of a threat in TA but is harder to play with and way worse in multiples. Ditto to KotR in Zoo or Maverick or Bant. Goyf is bad for the same reason you complain about Mental Misstep being bad; it's dumb easy to stick in any deck and wreck face with. Unlike Mental Misstep I don't see it making up for that by slowing the format down and giving non-blue decks an answer to combo.
I don't think you can say that Goyf is severely limiting variety right now though. The G/W deck seems to be getting popular in America as well (it's already quite large in Europe), and that deck is actually cutting Goyfs and can apparently get away with that (beats me why they'd cut it though). Obviously Goyf makes deckbuilding much more lineair than in a format without it, but I do actually think some archetypes wouldn't be playable without Goyf in the current metagame. Tempo Thresh is one example of that.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
The G/W deck seems to be getting popular in America as well (it's already quite large in Europe), and that deck is actually cutting Goyfs and can apparently get away with that (beats me why they'd cut it though).
The reason is that it doesn't do enough. For 2-drops, you really only want Stoneforge, Pridemage, and possibly Scavenging Ooze. There's just no room for a vanilla beater.
