How was Baltimore?
-Matt
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How was Baltimore?
-Matt
So I've been doing some thinking lately, looking at other people's lists and tinkering with the deck a bit, and I want to try this going forward:
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Terravore
4 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Graven Cairns
3 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard:
2 Noxious Revival
2 Perish
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zuran Orb
3 Thoughtseize
The mana is a little awkward because I only own one Badlands. Lilianna might become something else, I dunno. I've only played a couple games with her so far and she's been so-so. I really want more than "three mana, Edict and fog a guy" out of a card that warps my manabase, and the discard is less relevant alone than I would like it to be. The rest of the deck feels fine, if a little lacking in the early game: Demise is so-so for the first couple of turns and I only have two Lavamancer.
I might shave into the creatures and Lilis for more removal. Alternately, I might move some stuff around to make room for more discard in the main and take the deck in a more BGr direction.
I tried demise, and it was alright, but sometimes I wish it was something else. The only real non-aggro loam creatures that you will face that might be able to kill it (and bolt doesn't) is Knight of the Reliquary, and often Tarmogoyf. Those are obviously huge, but I think that the ability to just Lightning Bolt something makes up for it. It's nice to have removal even when your GY is gone.
As for Liliana, as before, I am a huge fan, and want to slide the third one in somehow. I think the reason why I like her more is that I have more removal to have her be more than just the fog. Often I bring her on board with them only having one creature, and then can just grind out the discard. She was randomly an out to Show and Tell-Emrakul (before getting punted by ANOTHER SnT-Emrakul).
I'm dissatisfied with my removal options right now. As I see it, Dreams is not a maindeckable card, and EE has been only so-so for ages. That leaves me with the following one-for-ones:
Grim Lavamancer
Lightning Bolt
Punishing Fire
Terminate
Ghastly Demise
Maelstrom Pulse
There's also various Edicts, theoretically, but I really don't like them outside of a few combo-ish matchups. I'm counting Assault more as a finisher than as a removal spell.
All of the removal spells listed have problems. Lavamancer is okay but provides serious diminishing returns in multiples. Bolt is okay but not universal. Fire is clunky but is attractive because it's a Loam-independent continuous damage source. Terminate is Spell Snare-able and is the kind of card you really only want to use on creatures that cost more than two mana; so many creatures these days either cost less or provide value when you cast them that paying two to kill your opponent's two-drop with a used CiP ability is just not good. Demise is a very bad StP approximation, and not just because of the non-black clause: it doesn't stack up favorably against Ooze and is awkward in the early game. Pulse costs too much mana but can destroy planeswalkers and equipment, so it stays.
Figuring out the right removal package is tricky and I feel like I want more removal than I have slots. I'm ambivalent on average about Punishing Fires: sometimes I love it and sometimes I hate how it warps the manabase and eats up tons of mana to use.
I like my removal:
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Seismic Assault (sorta, agree with what you said).
Pulse is a necessary evil. Honestly, I side it out a LOT. However, sometimes, game 1, you don't want to lose to a random card or planeswalker you never could have imagined, and it really deals with EVERYTHING.
Why not just splash white for StP in that case? It wouldn't be hard to shift some of the duals to (savannah, plateau, bayou) while cutting some of the more questionable sources. I don't think that even the Bayou is needed, and you can realistically play Sav/Plat in place of the 3rd Taiga and Volrath's. StP really is the best there is for 1cc removal.
Ugh, four color builds. The last time I attempted that, RUG Tempo/Canadian had Stifles and Wastelands, and that deck put the fear of God into me over stretching my manabase. I could probably get it to work, but Mox Diamonds and Life from the Loam are no compensation for greedy mana: the latter might diminish Wasteland's impact, but at the cost of time and mana, while the former are vulnerable to all sorts of removal and tempo counters, particularly if your opponent knows you need them to tie your mana together.
That said, access to StP is pretty attractive, and Knight of the Reliquary is a pretty cool guy. The deck's raw power goes up, but I'm still paranoid about four-color manabases.
I think that in general the metagame is shifting towards a :w: splash being better - RUG Delver is on the decline and is starting to cut Stifle which makes a greedy manabase somewhat safer. The added benefits of :w: shine especially against the rise of Maverick.
If you're not happy with black removal, you could go into white for Knight and Plow and cut black... I still don't get the obsession with Confidant in a format with and over-abundance of spot removal in a deck with no means to protect him and no equipment to make him useful in the red zone.
Knight + Crusher sounds amazing, and improves consistency in assembling the Punisher combo.
Jund builds have better sideboard options than Naya builds, though; it's not just Dark Confidant. Perish - and to a lesser extent, Virtue's Ruin - are pretty good against the format right now, and discard is better than just about anything white sideboard cards bring to the table. StP and Knight are not so much better that it's worth sacrificing percentage points in games two and three.
Or, we could run Naya with a black dual or two + Mox for Black sideboard options...
-Matt
I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
Alternately, cut Punishing Fire and add 1 Karakas, 1 Other Land in the Grove slots and GSZ and maybe something else in the non-land slots. I like the idea of Buried Ruin in the Other Land spot.
Sideboard gives Perish, Thoughtseize, IoK, Vindicate if you want it.
EDIT: Actually, screw Fires.
Perish hits your own guys too, though. What matchups do you really need Perish for? Against RUG, Knight is going to be just as good for you against them as Perish, unless they nuts you with quad Mongoose or something.
Against Maverick, Knight outsizes everything but their own Knights, except this deck is built to grow its Knights better than they can grow theirs.
What matchups do you want discard for? You still roll over and die to combo, although hatebears like Teeg and Thalia aren't a bad option there.
The problem with Maverick is that they can clutter the board up and make it hard to get through, particularly if they have equipment going. It's nice to be able to just Wrath and roll in for massive damage. Dreams may be an acceptable substitute for either Perish or Virtue's Ruin, though - I haven't done a straight-up comparison between the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
As for discard - it's better against the non-storm combo decks than nothing. Particularly against SnT decks, where hatebears basically do nothing, or Reanimator, where it's Ooze or bust, discard lets you take out key pieces of their combo to buy time. You are going to lose to storm combo either way, but discard helps against some of the other combo-ish decks in Legacy.
Wow. I was in the middle of posting while you guys responded, but I really like the idea of GSZ in here. Turning this deck into a mashup of Maverick and Aggro Loam isn't a bad idea, considering how strong of a deck Maverick is.
GSZ gives you Dryad Arbor. Between Mox Diamond and GSZ/Arbor, you get consistent mana ramp. GSZ gives you Teeg vs combo, Qasali vs problem artifacts/enchantments, and grabs Ooze, Goyf, or Knight. Friggin awesome.
Plus you still get to run Loam, Assault, and Crusher. Sounds like a winning idea if you ask me.
With both Crusher and Knight, I'd be tempted to just play DD main and go with the tried-and-true Fatty-geddon plan. It sweeps the leg under from all the small utility dorks which leaves only opposing Knights and/or Goyfs to worry about. At that point, StP would eliminate them too regardless of size.
Hatebears are better against combo when you have a fast clock. They don't beat down well and the amount of time they buy varies a lot based on the opponent's sideboarding and what deck they're playing - Teeg is mostly a blank versus Painter, SnT (either Sneak Attack or Hive Mind versions), Reanimator, Elves, and so on. Thalia is a little better but having to pay 2G to cast Loam makes me not want to run her. Similarly, I don't like Ethersworn Canonist in a Loam deck, and I don't think I have enough sideboard slots to turn into a Zoo-style beatdown deck - particularly not with how much mana my deck runs.
I agree that GSZ for Arbor is worth looking into, and would probably add it to a Naya list.
GSZ and Library are probably adequate substitutes for Bob. Bob tends to survive longer than people give him credit for, and he gets work done when he does. I'd also rather have people plow Bob than Terravore, Ooze, or Crusher.
If Dreams is good enough against Maverick, it may be worth it to cut the black duals entirely and go straight Naya. You lose points versus fringe combo, but what can you do?
Also, that Naya deck really makes me want to try Ajani Vengeant, but that might be too greedy.
EDIT:
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
SB:
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Noxious Revival
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Devastating Dreams
1 Karakas
1 Buried Ruin
2 Choke
I really want another GSZ in there.
Oh god, how I tried Ajani in a naya built of lands or this deck. He's is really strong against a lot of strategies, but 4 mana!
Also, if you have Knight, I would add one Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. It's simply too good against so many strategies to not have one maindeck, or at least SB.
I am not sure how ballistic Antonius will get when he sees these latest brews though :P
I don't own a Tabernacle and can't borrow one, so that's out.
Ajani is cute but probably worse than Elspeth in virtually every way. At least Elspeth does something to win when you're in the midgame.
The Russians have been on Naya Loam for years - I remember one of them almost t8'd GP Paris years ago with a Naya Loam build, and then someone else almost t8'd a more recent European GP with virtually the same list. IIRC they run Plows, Bolts, and a bunch of large three-mana dorks. The deck looks a lot like Big Zoo.
He's busy brewing up Vengevine lists right now :evilgrin:Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
Believe me, I've tried to get him to try KotR, but he doesn't respect the Knight.