[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I think the blue miracle card is awful unless you're playing 2 just for the sake of maybe getting an extra turn late in the game. It could be useful, but we're already so tight it's unbelievable.

RE: Snapcasters, I think they're fine; it's essentially replacing Enlightened tutor #3 and another bomb-slot. I think it's fine, but personally, I'm more interested in playing the tutor and the bomb, even though there is more selection with Snapcaster itself.

My current list is:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
2 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

--BOARD--

2 Spell Pierce
2 Dread of Night
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Back to Basics/Chill
1 Karmic Justice

-Matt

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Hi Matt,

I really really like your list. I was looking to get something going with CB-Thopters, so I started right away with your list.
Especially the mana base looks very solid. My only changes were removing the Karakas for another fetch, as I don't think the nonbasic-plains is worth the slot without playing Clique yourself, just to randomly screw Reanimator from time to time. Also, 7 fetches in on the low side these days.
I agree that Ancient Tomb is very good, better than other accelerants like Chrome Mox or the like. Not producing colored mana was never an issue for me, and I was always happy to see it.

I also really like Cursed Totem, but not maindeck. It just doesn't do enough against anything that's not Maverick. Against the other DTB (RUG Tempo, BladeControl, Sneak&Show, Dredge, ANT), I think it doesn't do anything.
I moved them to the board and added 1 SFM and 1 Batterskull for it. Batterskull gives you another angle of attack against decks that are prepared for the Thopters Combo, especially postboard when you get GY-hated. SFM can tutor up Sword of the Meek, so it should never be really dead. On a side note, with Batterskull, you can counter FoW with a CB and an Enlightened Tutor, which can be relevant from time to time.

I also added a couple of Snapcasters, since I think they are really good getting back our conditional counters (especially Spell Pierce, I almost want more Pierces in the main!), and flashing back Enlightened Tutors can be so back-breaking.

What I also noticed was that Jace was not that impressive in this deck as he was in others. I think that is because we rarely get to a completely empty board by T4 or 5, since we will be busy either getting the CB/Top lock, a bomb to handle their stuff or the Thopters Combo online, we don't have the time/capacity to counter/handle everything they do on the spot. Compared to U/W Blade, Jace is amazing because they can mostly just Snare/CSpell/StoP everything you do, repeat it with Snapcaster, Clique you EOT and then drop Jace on an empty board or protected by a creature (Snapcaster, Clique, or of course Lingering Souls Tokens). I however found myself frequently in spots where I was theoretically able to drop Jace, but it wouldn't have netted me more than a Brainstorm, which seems underwhelming for 4 mana and a turn. He's still Jace, so I just tried swapping one with an Elspeth. She just helps stabilizing the board a lot better than Jace.

So here is my current list. The SB is still a mess, I'm just trying to figure out how to beat Maverick (this seems to be a crux with every U/W list) without having too many narrow things in the board so that you can't board out your creature hate against combo because you have nothing to bring in ;)


4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Seat of the Synod

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Batterskull

SB:

2 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
1 Engineered Plague
2 Cursed Totem
1 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Meekstone

Drew Levin suggested this in premium:

U/W Enlightened Tutor Counterbalance
Featured by Drew Levin on 2012-04-22 (Legacy)

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Chrome Mox
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Meekstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry

Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares


Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Basic Lands
8 Island
1 Plains

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins

The funny things is he recommends a transformational sideboard with Dark Confidants but I don't see any black mana sources in the list. An he goes on about the importance of being Wasteland resistant and the adds a third color out of the blue.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

The funny things is he recommends a transformational sideboard with Dark Confidants but I don't see any black mana sources in the list. An he goes on about the importance of being Wasteland resistant and the adds a third color out of the blue.

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Read the full article. He talks about how the Volcanic Island is present to allow Engineered Explosives @ 3 and REB, then states it can be swapped for an Underground sea to allow for a transformational sideboard. This then allows you to run Dark Confidant. I wouldn't call a single land splash to support 1 card "adding a third colour out of the Blue". The deck is already extremely resilient to Wasteland because of the 9 basic lands.

Drew Levin's list appears pretty bad, I would find it hard to believe that he even played with that list once.
The lists from sdematt and tkdojo appear tested andd well thought out, as opposed to something slapped together to make a premium deadline or something. I feel sorry for the sheep that might end up playing it.

Perhaps there is something to that whole "Disregard Levin" saying...

I like the thought behind Drew Levin's article, but not the result. He's definitely a good player and knows the format, and he's doing some brainstorming, and these are his notes, so to speak. He hasn't been working on the deck for years like we have, but he's trying. We can definitely try some of these ideas and run with that.

-Matt

Ah, but, Meekstone is also hand size independent, allowing you to not nut yourself with cards so creatures can't attack you. Hm.

Huge downside: Jitte + tokens, tokens in general, or they alpha-strike you in one go. Therefore, I think a nice Venn diagram-effect of gumming up the board is good.

-Matt

I like Meekstone, but I think three is far too many. One or two is fine, and when used with Trinket Mage (to pad the 3 drops) it's use is improved. I would still run Ensnaring Bridge too, to help out the 3 spot in the deck. Matt and I discussed the use of Trinket Mage before, and I think it warrants another look at its inclusion.

I want meekstone so bad in a control build. I really like the way counterThop is looking lately, and Im gonna have to start playing full time in round soon I think... stupid reanimator getting bad...

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Originally Posted by sdematt

1 Arid Mesa

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by TkDodo

1 Arid Mesa

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Pretty sure this should be a marsh flats guys, to fetch your underground sea.


Terminus looks like a serious contender to replace wrath / perish in the SB, doesn't it?
I'm surprised not to see any vindicates in the SB (or MD for that matter) of lists running black. The card fits the curve nicely for CB, and gives us a good answer to the most problematic cards (I'm thinking in particular about PW, jitte, chalice, choke, stony silence).

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

Pretty sure this should be a marsh flats guys, to fetch your underground sea.


Terminus looks like a serious contender to replace wrath / perish in the SB, doesn't it?
I'm surprised not to see any vindicates in the SB (or MD for that matter) of lists running black. The card fits the curve nicely for CB, and gives us a good answer to the most problematic cards (I'm thinking in particular about PW, jitte, chalice, choke, stony silence).

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It really depends on your sideboard and if you are trying to find anything other than plains/island. This slot can either find volcanic or sea, and so really it depends on the sb to see which is more important.

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Originally Posted by dillonkbase

It really depends on your sideboard and if you are trying to find anything other than plains/island. This slot can either find volcanic or sea, and so really it depends on the sb to see which is more important.

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I was talking about TkDodo and Matt's last lists, with the black splash and no red.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

Pretty sure this should be a marsh flats guys, to fetch your underground sea.

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Totally, thanks for pointing that out. Must have been a leftover from my red-splash, which I usually have. The difference is minor, but Marsh Flats is strictly better in this case, so there is no way Arid Mesa is correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

Terminus looks like a serious contender to replace wrath / perish in the SB, doesn't it?
I'm surprised not to see any vindicates in the SB (or MD for that matter) of lists running black. The card fits the curve nicely for CB, and gives us a good answer to the most problematic cards (I'm thinking in particular about PW, jitte, chalice, choke, stony silence).

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Yes, Terminus looks promising. I think decks with Tops are the best option to try out Miracles, because we have the most library manipulation and the option to float it on the top as long as needed and the possibility to instant-miracle it with a top activision.
It does, however, not fit the CB curve, and gets shut of by Teeg (in comparison to Perish). I will probably test it in the board additionally to Perish.

I wanted to have a singleton Vindicate in the main. I don't think it's a sb card though. The sideboard can and should be narrow hate/removal, not catch-alls. It fills the 3-slot, which is imporant, because we really don't have many threes. That's also the issue I have with Snapcaster Mage. Yes, its a very powerful card, but it's actually a three-drop with CMC 2. Adding more threes might lead to a clunky deck.
For the list of cards you want to get rid of you provided, I think more Spell Pierce is better. Take Choke for example. They can rarely afford to play around Spell Pierce. Yes, you have to leave mana open, but I'm positive that you mostly cannot recover if you tap out T3/T4 and they choke you, even if you have Vindicate in hand. Sure, you can have lands that untap, but all the while where you are trying to handle Choke, you are getting beaten by Knight and the like. So I think Spell Piercing the aforementioned Spells is a better approach than Vindicating them. Oh and it also doesn't cost you a turn, and they don't get a PW-activision out of it. That's the main reason why I want the full set of Pierces againt Maverick postboard for instance.

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Originally Posted by TkDodo

I wanted to have a singleton Vindicate in the main. I don't think it's a sb card though. The sideboard can and should be narrow hate/removal, not catch-alls. It fills the 3-slot, which is imporant, because we really don't have many threes. That's also the issue I have with Snapcaster Mage. Yes, its a very powerful card, but it's actually a three-drop with CMC 2. Adding more threes might lead to a clunky deck.
For the list of cards you want to get rid of you provided, I think more Spell Pierce is better. Take Choke for example. They can rarely afford to play around Spell Pierce. Yes, you have to leave mana open, but I'm positive that you mostly cannot recover if you tap out T3/T4 and they choke you, even if you have Vindicate in hand. Sure, you can have lands that untap, but all the while where you are trying to handle Choke, you are getting beaten by Knight and the like. So I think Spell Piercing the aforementioned Spells is a better approach than Vindicating them. Oh and it also doesn't cost you a turn, and they don't get a PW-activision out of it. That's the main reason why I want the full set of Pierces againt Maverick postboard for instance.

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OK that makes sense, I wasn't suggesting replacing spell pierce for it though. I play 3 pierce and 3 vindicate in my 75. It's nice to have multiple answers to the most problematic cards, and a way to deal with them once they hit the board too (this is especially important vs an early chalice for instance, which we can't always counter). Besides, playing stony silence (for instance) with 2 extra mana isn't so hard in the mid/late-game, and I still want to have an answer to that.

here is the list I am currently running, I would like some criticism of the list if possible

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Thopter Foundry
9 Island
3 Tundra
4 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Sword of the Meek
1 Terminus
1 Misty Rainforest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

Pretty sure this should be a marsh flats guys, to fetch your underground sea.

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This makes a ton of sense. *brainfart* Good catch.

I'm pretty sure we all had a collective brainfart. Sorry.

I'm thinking the real question is, how many Trinket Mages? Not fetching Thopter combo itself is my only beef with Mage, otherwise I could warrant running more.

Thoughts?

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'm pretty sure we all had a collective brainfart. Sorry.

I'm thinking the real question is, how many Trinket Mages? Not fetching Thopter combo itself is my only beef with Mage, otherwise I could warrant running more.

Thoughts?

-Matt

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I'm slating 1 right now. It's pretty slow truth be told, but getting EE/Top/Meekstone is kind of clutch.

I agree, and postboard, you can grab Crypt, Cage, Needle, or more EE or something.

-Matt

So just some verbal diarrhea here, but has anyone EVER tried Gideon Jura? I was randomly looking through someone's trades and saw this guy again.

Now, first off, why even bring him up?

1) It mucks tapped creatures. This is cool, especially if you need to knock out a Knight.

2) He's a 6/6 attacker that can do something after you've Wrathed up the board.

3) He makes creatures attack him instead of you. If you've got other lockpieces up, he Forces the few attackers to attack him instead of your Jace/you.

With Bridge, big things can't attack you, and the little things mean they're maybe pecking him to death (ex. he'll take a hit from all their Noble Hierarchs and Qasali instead of allowing the Qasali to go under the Bridge and get Exalted, assuming they have another creature attacking as well).

With Meekstone, he forces those creatures to attack him, then they don't untap, causing them to never deal damage to you once before they become useless. Plus, then you muck tapped things after you've made them attack since they won't untap under Meekstone.

He'll untap after Meekstone since he won't be a creature during the upkeep, and you might be able to pound through for 6.


Thoughts?

-Matt