[Deck] Elves Combo

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

So... This is the list I'm spinning at the moment... And it works pretty well.

1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader

4 Green Sun's Zenith

The list spins pretty good. But when I'm facing the basic sweepers as Perish, Firespout, E.Plague and such, it simply wrecks me...
I've been playing against some decks packing Chalice main and it's such a screw over @ 1 that I simply don't want to play magic anymore.
I know that I don't run the typical Summoner's Pact list but I find GSZ to be more powerfull and even through the game than the Pact itself...

Any input, good or bad, would be appriciated.

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I've played GSZ also, but I removed it because it felt too much as tempo loss during the combo. Every time I used it during the combo I wished it was a Pact. I know that it sometimes is a risk to play more then 1 pact during the combo, but don't you hate it when you GSZ for an elf and don't draw from a glimpse? And if this question is a No from your side, could you elaborate a bit? And why do you play an Ezuri? Is he only for the overrun?
On regards of the sweepers: If your meta is indeed heavily populated with sweepers, why not change the Ezuri to a Caller of the Claw?
Chalice @ 1 is indeed a pain and nuisance, but can be annulled through Leyline of lifeforce or Vexing Susher. Maybe changing the Champion & Nullmage for Susher?

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

So... This is the list I'm spinning at the moment... And it works pretty well.

//land\\
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
5 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

//creature\\
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Birchlore Rangers
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force

//sorcery\\
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish

//sideboard\\
3 Vengevine
3 Buried Alive
3 Krosan Grip
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Masticore
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Gaea's Cradle

2 flex slots :
1 Elvish Champion
1 Regal Force

The list spins pretty good. But when I'm facing the basic sweepers as Perish, Firespout, E.Plague and such, it simply wrecks me...
I've been playing against some decks packing Chalice main and it's such a screw over @ 1 that I simply don't want to play magic anymore.

My meta consists of:
Rock
CB-Top
Mimic homebrew (B/W)
Mill - Hedron Crab
Food Chain - Pestermite - Kiki-Jiki
Aluren
Various Tempo decks
Merfolks

Krosan grip has proven to be house in this meta since a lot of the decks run various enchantments that you want to kill as fast as possible... But the rest I'm not sure of...
I know that I don't run the typical Summoner's Pact list but I find GSZ to be more powerfull and even through the game than the Pact itself...

Any input, good or bad, would be appriciated.

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My meta is also sweeper heavy. I also have to play a game against chalice of the void @ 1 pretty much every weekend. I don't think running living wish and Gaea's Cradle main deck is a smart idea. Like most other people said don't run GSZ instead of summoner's pact. I found Viridian shaman in the sideboard really nice against chalice @ 1. I would suggest replacing the Nullmage with Viridian shaman. Also since pretty much all board sweepers are sorcerys try to go off in one turn without playing to many creatures the turn before. Another reason you don't need GSZ. You really should run joraga main deck he is great against firespout. I think he is a lot better than Ezuri. Again practice comboing off in one turn without playing that many elves the turn before.

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

So... This is the list I'm spinning at the moment... And it works pretty well.
The list spins pretty good. But when I'm facing the basic sweepers as Perish, Firespout, E.Plague and such, it simply wrecks me...
I've been playing against some decks packing Chalice main and it's such a screw over @ 1 that I simply don't want to play magic anymore.

I know that I don't run the typical Summoner's Pact list but I find GSZ to be more powerfull and even through the game than the Pact itself...

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With 4 GSZ and 1 Viridian shaman or Viridian Zealot you should be better than anyone not running GSZ to play against Chalice at 1, you have 5 shots maindeck at destroying it. Don't complain.

Anyway, I don't like the idea of not running Pact, for it is one of the best cards in the deck. My thought is usually on the 4-6 tutor, but we must run at least 3 Pacts. If you feel you tend to die to pact, play the deck for half a year non-stop, then you won't do anymore. You'll know when to Pact and when not to. If you don't like it 100% as I do not either, run 3 of them as I do. Good number.

Also, where are your Visionaries?? She is probably on the most important elves in the combo.


TO k2thej: Again, I don't understand why you keep saying that we always go off on turn 2 o 3. That just doesn't happen. There is FOW, Swords to plowhares, Lightning Bolt, Daze, Path, Thoughtseize, Hymn to toruch, Chalice, Trinisphere, ANT, which are WIDELY seen that stop us from doing that. I just hate it when you say we combo off 2nd turn. That only happens against Monogreen decks........

I apologize if I sound confrontational, but srsly, this discussion is going in the wrong direction. Simply put, pure Combo Elves is not a real deck. Vengevine Elves is closer to a real deck, and could be a real deck if the right configuration is found, or is in a favorable meta.

Here are my thoughts on Elves!

1) Green Sun's Zenith? I don't want to play this card unless I'm also playing Cloudstone Curio, so that I can set up the loop kill. Otherwise, I'd rather just cast the creatures I was fetching, a job which Summoner's Pact does better for a pure combo.

2) Buried Alive/Vengevine? For real? Why not just Intuition/Vengevine, which also tutors for pieces of the combo? It's not like you guys are playing Thoughtseize out of the board or anything. I think elves without Intuition/Vengevine (or at least some sort of Vengevine plan) in the main is just a worse ANT, since you can't legitimately threaten to beat most decks with just elves.

3) I guess Emrakul is fine. I like 1 Birchlore Ranger/1 Grapeshot myself if you're going for a kill condition--and at that, I don't feel the need for an actual kill against most decks, even post board. Having a same turn kill is a necessary evil, I think, as a concession to Perish/Other sweepers and Combo existing in the format, but don't you guys look to your same turn kill as the first thing you can board out, if at all possible. Also, Emrakul is always 15 mana. Grapeshot can sometimes be mised for 5 or 6.

My list, taken to 1st at 25 person tournament:

[deck]
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Elvish Visionary
4 Vengevine
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal Force

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Intuition
1 Crop Rotation
1 Grapeshot

1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
2 Spell Pierce
[/deck]

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Originally Posted by vbalakri

2) Buried Alive/Vengevine? For real? Why not just Intuition/Vengevine, which also tutors for pieces of the combo? It's not like you guys are playing Thoughtseize out of the board or anything. I think elves without Intuition/Vengevine (or at least some sort of Vengevine plan) in the main is just a worse ANT, since you can't legitimately threaten to beat most decks with just elves.

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I stated a few posts back that Buried Alive functions very similar to Intuition with VVs, but should only be considered with Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, as the former is a narrower card than Intuition. Intuition is indeed stronger, but you don't get much more utility out of the blue splash which now makes your mana base vulnerable to Wasteland. The black splash gives you better SB cards with the discard.

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

TO k2thej: Again, I don't understand why you keep saying that we always go off on turn 2 o 3. That just doesn't happen. There is FOW, Swords to plowhares, Lightning Bolt, Daze, Path, Thoughtseize, Hymn to toruch, Chalice, Trinisphere, ANT, which are WIDELY seen that stop us from doing that. I just hate it when you say we combo off 2nd turn. That only happens against Monogreen decks........

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I didn't say always but it sure is the vast majority of the time (80-85%). If you feel your goldfish is slower than that, it is probably because you run a slower list than mine. I go off turn 2 against all kinds of deck. countertop, merfolk, gobs, zoo, etc. You just have to play it smart, and like ruckus said above, hold as many guys in hand as you can in the first two turns unless you are going to go off.

@vbalakri- I get very frustrated when people say x is "not a real deck." Anything can become a "real" deck, if by real you mean places in tournaments. I agree that pure combo elves has not had any major accomplishments, but I disagree that this means it won't in the future. VV does seem like a really good idea, but I think intuition main might be just a bit too slow for the combo.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

I stated a few posts back that Buried Alive functions very similar to Intuition with VVs, but should only be considered with Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, as the former is a narrower card than Intuition. Intuition is indeed stronger, but you don't get much more utility out of the blue splash which now makes your mana base vulnerable to Wasteland. The black splash gives you better SB cards with the discard.

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Fair.

I'm still of the opinion that Intuition is the better option--I feel like I get enough utility out of the blue splash (cards I've intuitioned for: VV, Glimpse, Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote, Natural Order, and Elvish Archdruid) that Intuition alone is worth having a slightly more vulnerable mana base. I guess I don't like the lack of disruption that I'm able to run, but I sort of see Elves as a better Zoo deck--able to clock as an aggro deck with Vengevine, and rather than burn, having the ability to "just get them" with the combo--rather than a combo deck. And in that light, I'm OK not having the appropriate disruption against ANT, e.g., since I don't really plan to beat that deck other than by mising a combo win.

On a side note, I bascially hate NO/Prog. It's just sooo slow, and doesn't even actually get the decks you want it to, since most of them bring in Perish.

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

With 4 GSZ and 1 Viridian shaman or Viridian Zealot you should be better than anyone not running GSZ to play against Chalice at 1, you have 5 shots maindeck at destroying it. Don't complain.

Anyway, I don't like the idea of not running Pact, for it is one of the best cards in the deck. My thought is usually on the 4-6 tutor, but we must run at least 3 Pacts. If you feel you tend to die to pact, play the deck for half a year non-stop, then you won't do anymore. You'll know when to Pact and when not to. If you don't like it 100% as I do not either, run 3 of them as I do. Good number.

Also, where are your Visionaries?? She is probably on the most important elves in the combo.


TO k2thej: Again, I don't understand why you keep saying that we always go off on turn 2 o 3. That just doesn't happen. There is FOW, Swords to plowhares, Lightning Bolt, Daze, Path, Thoughtseize, Hymn to toruch, Chalice, Trinisphere, ANT, which are WIDELY seen that stop us from doing that. I just hate it when you say we combo off 2nd turn. That only happens against Monogreen decks........

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I have the visionaries... Just forgot to write them down...
But yeah... I'll check all the replys and tinker around a bit... Appriciate the input from everyone. It's constructive atleast! :)

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Originally Posted by k2thej

I didn't say always but it sure is the vast majority of the time (80-85%). If you feel your goldfish is slower than that, it is probably because you run a slower list than mine. I go off turn 2 against all kinds of deck. countertop, merfolk, gobs, zoo, etc. You just have to play it smart, and like ruckus said above, hold as many guys in hand as you can in the first two turns unless you are going to go off.

@vbalakri- I get very frustrated when people say x is "not a real deck." Anything can become a "real" deck, if by real you mean places in tournaments. I agree that pure combo elves has not had any major accomplishments, but I disagree that this means it won't in the future. VV does seem like a really good idea, but I think intuition main might be just a bit too slow for the combo.

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Honestly pure combo elves is just as good as VV elves. My deck tied the VV elves in the SCG San Jose but just had a really bad tie-breaker. I didn't even run living wish back then so now the deck has gotten much better. I think VV in SB might be okay but it doesn't look like a must.

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Originally Posted by Neil

Honestly pure combo elves is just as good as VV elves. My deck tied the VV elves in the SCG San Jose but just had a really bad tie-breaker. I didn't even run living wish back then so now the deck has gotten much better. I think VV in SB might be okay but it doesn't look like a must.

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My issue with Combo Elves/No VV is that it feels like a worse combo than something like Belcher or ANT or Doomsday. Yes, it loses to different disruption, yes it still has a marginal at best beatdown plan.

But in the end, aren't you the most cold to Counterbalance+Top, and aren't you basically cold to your opponent cutting away Glimpse?

I think the difference in opinion is in my approach to the deck: I don't think Elves combo is the best thing ever, just another combo which is too fragile to exist safely in legacy. I do think that the Vengevine plan is the best beatdown plan that exists in legacy, bar none (it's nearly as fast as Zoo, and is far more resilient, since, well, Vengevine keeps coming back). In that light, the Elves! shell is really good, because it allows you to simply combo people out, giving free wins, and forces people to respect the combo, because it is quite consistent. If they disrupt just the Vengevine plan, they will die on turn 4-5 to a flurry of green spells.

Basically, this: I would rather 8 spells that demand a counter (Glimpse/Intuition) than 4 (just glimpse).

I have been testing a list with 4 Gaea's Cradle and 17 lands total (13 other lands), and I have not had significant trouble with mana. I have played close to 20 games tonite, and not once did I get only Cradle in the opening hand.

It may warrant a 2nd look, as the benefits of the mana boost outweighs the opening hand issues.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

I have been testing a list with 4 Gaea's Cradle and 17 lands total (13 other lands), and I have not had significant trouble with mana. I have played close to 20 games tonite, and not once did I get only Cradle in the opening hand.

It may warrant a 2nd look, as the benefits of the mana boost outweighs the opening hand issues.

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My issue with 4 cradles wasn't the opening hand, it is the dead draws while comboing. Have you had trouble with this?

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Originally Posted by k2thej

I didn't say always but it sure is the vast majority of the time (80-85%). If you feel your goldfish is slower than that, it is probably because you run a slower list than mine. I go off turn 2 against all kinds of deck. countertop, merfolk, gobs, zoo, etc. You just have to play it smart, and like ruckus said above, hold as many guys in hand as you can in the first two turns unless you are going to go off.

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K2thej, by your reply, I understand the following.

That you "go off" 80-85% of time even if they play any of the cards I stated before, or that even if they do or don't you are good to go by turn 3, 80% of the time. Let's also say then that while comboing you don't fizzle again 85% of the time.

That would mean that your deck combos off through anything 75% by turn 2 or 3. And then the rest of the games you can fall back upon aggro or luckily combo again if they stop you the first time, let's say 35% percent of the time minimum.

That would make your list one of the best decks in legacy, or maybe even the one with best stats ever. Just as good as ANT first turns, but without any possible turn 1s, and almost as good as Zoo in the later turns going aggro. That would make us the deck with the best stats ever.

Considering that ANT is this month's 4th deck placing and Zoo has been number 1, why aren't we just like them? What I mean to say. I know our deck is really good, but we can't just say that it works 85%. Those statistics are unrealistic. The cards I wrote hurt us a lot and are played a lot.


TO BVALAKRI: If elves isn't a real deck why is it this month's 6th deck with most top8 in the world ?? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...?format=Legacy

Also, if it isn't a real deck, why do you even bother coming to this threat and wasting your time thinking about it, go play something Real.

What I am merely trying to tell to you both, is that you have to be more constructive. Don't attack and don't brag.


By the way, I haven't had much time to test lately, and I'm playing a tourny this weekend. I think I'll test the Wish list in the tourny, so what was your guys' last wish list looking like, prior to testing Vengevine??

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

TO BVALAKRI: If elves isn't a real deck why is it this month's 6th deck with most top8 in the world ?? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...?format=Legacy

Also, if it isn't a real deck, why do you even bother coming to this threat and wasting your time thinking about it, go play something Real.

What I am merely trying to tell to you both, is that you have to be more constructive. Don't attack and don't brag.


By the way, I haven't had much time to test lately, and I'm playing a tourny this weekend. I think I'll test the Wish list in the tourny, so what was your guys' last wish list looking like, prior to testing Vengevine??

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Because, erm, I'm advocating a different version of Combo Elves? I'm really just going "No, I don't believe that trying to Combo them out every game is what I want to do." I want to be attacking with Vengevines, and the Combo Elves shell is a very good one to put this plan into. I really doubt that elves can win on a consistent basis when all you can do is combo them out--frankly, the "Beat Down with 1/1s and 2/2s" plan is unexciting at best--and without some sort of backup monster, you end up on this plan altogether too often for me to endorse Elves without Vengevine+Buried Alive/Intuition (I tried Buried Alive--it's the stone nuts when it happens, but I missed the utility of Intuition--I don't begrudge anybody who uses Buried Alive instead of Intuition)

Newb question I had an "argument" over:

I cast Regal Force and draw, say, 20 cards, but only have, say, 19 cards in my library. Now I don't deck myself until I'm forced to draw, right? Or do I just lose right there?

The other day I played my friend against his casual deck. I almost lost because he dropped Blood Seeker turn one. Hahaha, glad I ran Grapeshot.

If you're required to draw more cards than are in your library, you lose. Think of recent Spiral Tide casting Blue Sun's Zenith for 48 targeting you, when you have 45 cards in your library.

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Originally Posted by NihilObstat

K2thej, by your reply, I understand the following.

That you "go off" 80-85% of time even if they play any of the cards I stated before, or that even if they do or don't you are good to go by turn 3, 80% of the time. Let's also say then that while comboing you don't fizzle again 85% of the time.

That would mean that your deck combos off through anything 75% by turn 2 or 3. And then the rest of the games you can fall back upon aggro or luckily combo again if they stop you the first time, let's say 35% percent of the time minimum.

That would make your list one of the best decks in legacy, or maybe even the one with best stats ever. Just as good as ANT first turns, but without any possible turn 1s, and almost as good as Zoo in the later turns going aggro. That would make us the deck with the best stats ever.

Considering that ANT is this month's 4th deck placing and Zoo has been number 1, why aren't we just like them? What I mean to say. I know our deck is really good, but we can't just say that it works 85%. Those statistics are unrealistic. The cards I wrote hurt us a lot and are played a lot.
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Ant is faster than that. And has my stats but a half a turn faster. I think you are underestimating ANT's speed rather than underestimating my deck's comparablity to it. I average turn 2.6, they average turn 2.2 I believe.

I know you are going to say how ridiculous this sounds, but I really don't fizzle when comboing. when I cast a glimpse I go off 97% of the time according to my goldfish stats. My deck is designed not to fizzle, and it does it's job.

Zoo sucks. I really don't understand why it keeps placing. My only loss to zoo was in a tournament when I was just starting to play elves and I lost to pact. We can beat zoo without glimpse. Actually, without glimpse the match is still in our favor. Our aggro goldfish is faster than theirs. When going aggro, we goldfish turn 4 on average. They are turn 5 if I am not mistaken. Take into account post board and our clock gets even faster with more lords/VV.

Seriously, if you think my stats are wrong, I can do 50 goldfishes later and tell you what I did on each one to prove it.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Ant is faster than that. And has my stats but a half a turn faster. I think you are underestimating ANT's speed rather than underestimating my deck's comparablity to it. I average turn 2.6, they average turn 2.2 I believe.

I know you are going to say how ridiculous this sounds, but I really don't fizzle when comboing. when I cast a glimpse I go off 97% of the time according to my goldfish stats. My deck is designed not to fizzle, and it does it's job.

Zoo sucks. I really don't understand why it keeps placing. My only loss to zoo was in a tournament when I was just starting to play elves and I lost to pact. We can beat zoo without glimpse. Actually, without glimpse the match is still in our favor. Our aggro goldfish is faster than theirs. When going aggro, we goldfish turn 4 on average. They are turn 5 if I am not mistaken. Take into account post board and our clock gets even faster with more lords/VV.

Seriously, if you think my stats are wrong, I can do 50 goldfishes later and tell you what I did on each one to prove it.

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If I'm not misstaken... Goldfishing means drawing x hands and playing against no one... Unbothered you could win fast and resilient... The thing I'm facing isn't that the deck is bad or fizzles. It's the disruption that just wrecks your plan instantly if they remove a key card or whipes the board...

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

If I'm not misstaken... Goldfishing means drawing x hands and playing against no one... Unbothered you could win fast and resilient... The thing I'm facing isn't that the deck is bad or fizzles. It's the disruption that just wrecks your plan instantly if they remove a key card or whipes the board...

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Ya you are right. And I realized that I think I see where I was miscommunicating with Nihil. The states I was referencing were for goldfishing. While I do still think the deck is both fast an resilient in tournament environments, the average of a turn 2.6 win is def when goldfishing.

As for dealing with disruption, the best way to do this is to spread out your threats. Make it so you CAN afford to lose any one piece of the deck, or try to get as close to this point as possible.

@vbalakri: I like your list, I'm gonna try out the same style right now. But wouldn't Brain Freeze be better as Grapeshot here? With only 1 Birchlore Range it will be hard to cast Grapeshot...

I also like the Archdruids in the sideboard although I can't find space for them myself.