I have played a good amount of games vs folk and every time I play it the other player just laughs at it as it is way to slow vs them. I guess it is a differ in opinion but I would never bring them vs folk as I never think the do enough.
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I have played a good amount of games vs folk and every time I play it the other player just laughs at it as it is way to slow vs them. I guess it is a differ in opinion but I would never bring them vs folk as I never think the do enough.
On a non-plague related note...Karakas. So we play it to bounce Emrakul, but aren't most Show and Tell/Sneak Attack players aware that we have it and won't they play around it? So couldn't we maybe bluff that we have it, because if they think we do they won't go for it til Karakas won't matter.
Karakas isn't really hard to play around. Our only means of tutoring it is via KotR, and just because we have an answer doesn't mean we'll draw into it. Even then post-SB a S&T player will just side in Moon effects, or Needles, or other means of answering Karakas. Their more worried about playing against our discard rather than a land that can only answer 1 of the 3 average creatures run in their deck. That having been said, just because you may find Karakas to be subpar does not make it any less useful of a land to have in this MU. Increasingly at the Starcities and other legacies I've been looking at the deck analysis and it looks like S&T is a deck we're starting to see grow. Not by an amazingly elephantine amount, mind you, but enough where Karakas is a card you will definitely want to be running.
If you are finding it lackluster, then at the very least being able to shut off Emrakul justifies a slot. Even if you are worried they can play around a Karakas, remember that Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate can also answer Emrakul so forcing them to stall their game even a turn can be highly relevant.
Notice how I kinda argued both sides without actually giving a solid standpoint on the issue? Lol.
Forlorn Egoist
At this point I feel karakas belongs in the side. The show and tell decks right now are coming out of the side in decks like painter or counter top.
How?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Yeah, those don't hit Emrakul. Only Edict, Tariff, Deed on 15, Wrath, and Karakas hit Emrakul. Unless you want your anus torn open or you literally see zero Emrakul/Iona in your meta, run it.
I'd run it just for making it easier to hit Kira. Target her, getting the Karakas ability countered, then Swords her.
-Matt
@ matt
that's sweet. didn't cross my mind. :)
btw.
I'm actually against running Karakas because the only way you can consistently play it is when you have an active knigt.
and it's not that the situation is untenable if you get hit by emrakul. I recently won a game when I got hit by sneaked emrakul, but finished him of with a very big knight. and I mean - VERY. :)
I'm quoting myself because I didn't get a reply the last time. Anyway I decided to play the following sideboard:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
1 Karakas
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Null Rod
1 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Engineerded Plague
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
Eventually I ended up going 4-2, making place 7 (out of 25). Unfortunately there was a top 4 instead a top 8. I must say that I was positively impressed by the deck. I felt much more in control than when I'm playing Zoo or Goblins.
I lost to the mirror (discard / mox diamond version) after a long game of maybe 40 minutes, which was a close call for both of us a couple of times (STP on a big Terravore does wonders). And in the last round to Canadian ***** which completely destroyed me. (otherwise I would've made top 4) I won against Dredge (a bit lucky), ANT (very close call, the guy played it for the first time I think) , some crazy sort of homebrew LD deck and another Rock deck (can't remember it's specifics). I was very happy with my wins vs those two combo decks because the sideboard I came up with did what it was supposed to do.
The changes I am going to make to the main deck are:
-2 Maelstrom Pulse (with a Vindicate I might've won game 2 vs Canadian ***** because I had a pulse in hand and a Goyf on the board and he had a Goyf and Nimble Mongoose)
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Kitchen Finks (Gaddock Teeg just does more)
-1 Inquisition of Krozilek (Stupid FOW's)
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Terravore
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Vindicate
The changes I want to make to the sideboard deck are:
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 Cold-eyed Selkie
+2 ???
I still have some questions so I hope I'll get a reply this time. ;-)
1. Is Canadian ***** is such a bad matchup or was I just very unlucky.
2. What cards can I add to my sideboard to improve the Goblin matchup.
3. Or is it better to improve the control matchup and with what cards?
4. Should I take out the lone Path and add a third KotR?
@mdc1010: I think the opportunity cost of running Karakas main is so low you really have no reason not to.
@Nelis: I like Maelstrom Pulse a lot, but it's certainly meta dependent. If you think you'll be seeing Goyfs and Knights, swap it for a Vindicate. You're not playing Hymn? It almost seems like blasphemy to not have it in the 75.
And for the sake of discussion, here's the list I played at SCG Boston. The main event went awful (mulligans galore), but I crushed some 8-man side events on Saturday with it.
Creatures:
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Artifacts:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond
Enchantments:
1 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers:
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Instant:
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands:
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Plague
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Changes I would make are:
-1 Pridemage +1 Tarmogoyf (yeah yeah yeah, he's good. I get it. I like Terravore as a one-of though.)
-1 Maelstrom Pulse +1 Vindicate (for the reasons listed above.)
Board:
-1 Nature's Ruin +1 Perish (haven't seen regeneration matter but at some point I'm going to get dominated by a Thrun or something)
-2 Engineered Plague +2 something else
Debating dropping the SOFI (I've found myself almost always getting Jitte), but I need to run the Merfolk matchup a bit to see how sick it is there. Adding Stoneforge Mystic was probably the best change I made recently.
@ nelis
1.) IMHO, you were unlucky. I have only positive experience with C.T. Never lost a tournament match against it with JUNK/ROCK builds and have a clean 4:0.
2.) Kitchen Finks always do the job efficiently. Furthermore, it's absolutely necessary to have an answer to T1 Lackey when you're on draw as well as on play. Apart from that, Goblins hate mox diamond, but that's maindeck of course.
3.) Duress, Hymn, Verdict... The list goes on. But you would have to change MD accordingly.
4.) I would always play 4x Kotr. She's a beast.
Try to change your deck to sth like this:
// creatures 20
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
1 Sylvan Safekeeper (actually - Bob's Bodyguard)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
// spells 17
1 Elpeth, Knight Errant
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse (i'd actually prefer Pulse over Vindicate in this build)
4 Swords to Plowshares
I specifically don't want to run Mox Diamond with so little lands and I don't want to be forced to fetch Wastable lands just to be able to play Hymn, that's why I don't play Hymn's. I think I want to spend the 2 Sb spots on goblins hate. How about 2 Vendetta's?
I'll take out the Path and add the 3rd Kotr again.
If you're worried about the Golbin MU (and the Merfolk MU as well) have you tested Dueling Grounds? Goblins only real out to enchantments is K. Grip if they're a green splash and Merfolk really has no way to answer it upon resolution short of an Echoing Truth which is usually a SB card. Both decks win by swarming the opponent with creatures and we're a midrange deck that wins of the back of 1 or two efficient beaters so Dueling Grounds really doesn't affect us at all while making tribal strategies less amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
I'm actually running these in place of E. Plagues currently.
Forlorn Egoist
I think I'm going to do that as well.
No I haven't tested Dueling Grounds yet since I just picked up the deck. But in my experience so far the biggest problem when playing against Goblins is a turn 1 Lackey that connects. That's why I want a fast answer. When Lackey doesn't connect I'm usually able to ride it out with E. Plagues. I like them a lot especially since it kills most of their creatures. Maybe I should go for Darkblast instead of Vendetta since it's reusable and fuels Tarmogoyf as well. Also good against the occasional Elf deck.
If I feel that Plagues are not sufficient enough in the Merfolk match up I will definitely consider Dueling Grounds. But I'll have to test that match up first.
@ bfeingersh
Run 3 Tops, for the love of God. They're really good :)
@ Canadian Thresh
So long as you have decent mana development early in the game and don't get 4x Stifled and 4x Wastelanded, you should be fine. You have infinite removal to their threat-light builds. Basically, the key here is to keep your mana on track, land a Top, and strip them apart with discard. Your creatures are bigger than theirs, so just keep on the offensive. If you land big threats, they have to try to burn you to death (which is why you Hymn them...a lot...)
-Matt
Maybe it's my personal deck being weird, but in my Rock builds with a full set of Bobs, I've found I see multiple Tops way too often if I run three. With two, I see one almost every game, but literally never multiples. And that's in a straight BG-list, as I haven't gotten around to laying out for a decent KotR package.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I agree that Top is really good, but this isn't a deck that seems like it can do anything with extraneous ones (no Brainstorm/JMS/anything to toss them back in your deck with), and it's definitely not a deck that can burn a draw step on something with zero utility.
I guess the answer is for bfeingersh to playtest and see which way the deck is more friendly? It may well be a personal thing.
Also, bfeingersh; the singleton Terravore seems random. Is it helping you that much that it's not better off as a third Goyf or second Elspeth? (I'm really asking; I miss having places for my Terravores.) If so, how?
My thoughts pretty much exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by coraz86
I haven't tried a second Elspeth, but I like a Terravore over a Goyf. I've posted in here before that I'm not really a fan of everyone's favorite grizzly bear. Depending on the matchup, Terravore comes down as a 10/10 or more and quickly ends the game. He does get boarded out as he's just a large beater, but he is very good at hitting stuff.Quote:
Also, bfeingersh; the singleton Terravore seems random. Is it helping you that much that it's not better off as a third Goyf or second Elspeth? (I'm really asking; I miss having places for my Terravores.) If so, how?
Terravore is such a monster in almost all game ones.
He comes out many times for sideboard hate when the graveyard hate comes in, which will come in when they get face smashed by the trampling behemoth. I personally will never run less than two but I am also slightly insane.
I'm very mad, I just had a huge post on my decklist and recent results that I have had...then the system decided I couldn't edit my post and erased all my hard work...either way here is the decklist, I have been playing it for years and am looking for some help in developing it further.
// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Bayou
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
SB: 2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
Ill try and get the rest of the post finished after I sleep and work 14 hours tomorrow...
Instead of Terravore I'd rather consider running Doran as a 2of as he doenst necessarly oblige your opponents to side in Graveyard hate ind g2, it's really annoying to have an terravore out there and relic kills it while your goyfs and knights get shrinked too.
I played yesterday with some friends and I came to the point to despise Gerrads Verdict. It simply sucks ass, especially against aggro decks like merfolk as they dont care to discard a cursecatcher or a land most of the time. More removal like EE would have been way better. Another point is that I think that the standard Junk list's threat density is too low. In aggro matchups ( which aren't in our favor at all ) it's really helpful to get out some big creatures to prevent swarming and control decks will have to deal with more threats so I've added 2 EE and 1 Doran in my current list.
Reading your list you did say that you adding one tarmo but the full set is absolutely necessary in any green deck that wants to attack to win. In aggro matches goyf is just your wall and drawing multiples will most likely win you the game.
If you side out terravore and they bring in hate then they are really not hating anything...