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I had been working with 16 a long time. Supprisingly 15 works just as well. The Sire is the go-target in turn 1-2, especially in game 1. You need to try it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
Ed: Thoughtseize... I tend to side it out a lot. Still a nice Tool to Start into Show and Tell and to ward against counter
I see various lists running spell Pierce main while only sideboarding thoughtseize: doesn't thoughtseize do basically everything Pierce does, but more reliably, while also serving as enabler in a pinch? Is it because of the non negligible life loss and wanting to keep the blue count up?
Have you guys tried Ruric Thar, the Unbowed?
Played against several Chlalice of the Void @ 1 - Decks. Really, really difficult to play. Any ideas how we can interact?
So, I have been playing this deck for a few months now and LOVED it. This is the list I have been running and the last time I did well with it (6/7/15) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=86013
I picked up some Show and Tells and haven't really enjoyed it in the side at all. Our meta is pretty diverse, I tend to get lots of practice vs many popular legacy decks except for lands. More players have been playing deathrites and tend to mull to get it turn 1. I have tried 1 Pernicious Deed in the main to try to give me something against maindeck hate. It has done pretty well and helps a lot vs all of the delver decks.
I feel as if lately I have hit a wall with it. I haven't had a game where Tidespout has been a solid choice. I am trying to figure out what to do at the Invitational and am unsure if I want to go with this deck or not. I have considered just going Tin Fins but would prefer not to.
Anybody else having some frustrations or suggestions getting me out of my rut?
Side note I have been considering Sire of Insanity vs tidespout
How often does the MD Iona prove useful? How often do you side it out postboard?
It's kind of the nature of the beast. Reanimator is a very very strong list when it wants to cooperate and you're having a good day, but sometimes you get Show and Tell syndrome where you just don't put A+B together across thirty cards. Sometimes you just run into "that guy" that has a reanimator player in his shop and 30 cards boarded for the matchup even if it makes no sense. I think we've all gotten frustrated at one point or another. In the span of the year I played only Reanimator, I went anywhere from 2nd at an old Legacy open to 0-3 drop because I just couldn't execute despite very aggressively mulliganing (something I think a lot of reanimator players dont do enough of).Quote:
Originally Posted by bonkotsu
I left home without 4 Show and Tell in my 75 once. Exactly once. I regretted it.
I definitely don't think Tin Fins is correct. TF is basically reanimator but even more goddamn finnicky and variance-leaning. If you're on the graveyard capital C combo plan, Dragon seems superior to that.
Tidespout and Sire are kind of different animals. Sire is for combo and Karakas decks to beat them on turn 1-2. Tidespout obviously is for Problem Permanent decks. Different animals altogether. Sire's most apt comparison is the Iona slot, and right now with Omnitell everywhere I think Iona is the better call. That deck almost just can't beat that card (outside of having the 1-of Emrakul in hand natural when they execute).
RE: Pirateking - Iona is pretty stellar lately what with Omnitell, and as a second string monster for Elves.
I dont think I could do Show and Tell as a 4 of. I would probably lose my mind. I only run 2 which 3 may be the correct number?Quote:
Originally Posted by Worldslayer
I always had the 2 of Dread of Night for D&T and Maverick, I know some lists are 50/50 on it.
Golgari Charm has been one I have felt is lacking. Like it could be a board wipe against some of the smaller aggro decks, but being able to destroy enchantments has saved me. It is a 1 of in my side but I feel like an idiot the second I see the Leyline if I take it out. It being a 1 of also makes it rough digging for the answer. Is there a reason some people just don't have hate for leyline?
MD Iona is the reason I play Reanimator vs Sneak/Show and OmniTell. A lot of times Iona cannot be answered naming the color of removal and your opponent can't go on the offensive as long as there is a 7/7 flier on the field. The closest match I ever had was against an infect player, he hid his White splash until game 3 and STP'd my elesh norn. So I put out Iona on white, it basically stalled out the game. Each time he killed it I would reanimate it thanks to him attempting to Invigorate.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
I side it out against Shardless as they have both Jace and Lili to deal with Iona, Elesh Norn does work in that matchup. I personally don't like Golgari Charm, Elesh Norn does that job but better.
I'm firmly in the Show and Tell camp, other pilots here have their opinion. Sometimes the grave hate is too intense so you gotta have a plan B. Especially when Leyline of the Void is a thing in your meta. Seeing 3x Leyline of the Void opening action is just a bad time.
On topic with Ruric Thar, he's a 6/4 that can be dealt with. Our deck also has a lot of non creature spells. Sire of Insanity would probably be the stronger play here early game. Best answer against Chalice on 1 is the Abrupt Decay plan, show and tell plan, or hoping you binned a fatty and can exhume.
Because a lot of us have accepted that rather than have a counterplan for every individual hate piece where you have to guess right, we can just become a Show deck game 2 and dodge most of the hate entirely. Obviously this plan gets better the more Thoughtseize you run.Quote:
Originally Posted by bonkotsu
Decay is fine, has been since I started running it in 2013, but doesn't catch leyline. Krosan Grip effects can catch rip and leyline but not Ooze or Shaman, and destroy permanent effects don't help against ravenous trap or surgical extraction. There's just too many good angles to come at the graveyard from to properly board for all of them without completely burning most of your sideboard slots of stuff you might not even see. Packing 3 needle and the 2 show I'm not main decking changes most of my problematic cards into counter SnT cards, which are weak themselves to Thoughtseize before SnT and counter magic after. Now I don't really have to guess, and my sideboard has a lot more free space for things I want.
Planning on playing the SCG in DC this weekend, here's what i plan on sleeving up:
3 griselbrand
1 Iona, shield of emeria
1 tidespout tyrant
1 elesh norn, grand cenobyte
1 grave titan
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 thoughtsieze
4 careful study
4 entomb
4 reanimate
4 daze
4 exhume
4 force of will
3 lotus petal
4 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 swamp
Board:
3 abrupt decay
2 duress
2 jace, vryn’s prodigy
2 pithing needle
2 surgical extraction
1 thoughtsieze
1 massacre
1 Aetherling
1 sire of insanity
Id like to talk about jace on the board, think it gives us not only a good non-show and tell hedge against all the midrange decks in the format after board, but is very powerful as both a looter and a recurring effect with cantrips and reanimate spells. On the downside, is still not great against graveyard hate, but i think with 6 discard spells and daze in the deck, he could be proactive enough to go under those effects. Also the loot is sweet because often against the more grindy match ups you want one less careful study, so a discard outlet is welcome. Any thoughts?
Gilderbarin216
Your main deck seems good!
EDIT: I would -1 daze +1 Animate dead, but i guess this is a personal preference :)
I would have made some minor changes to the mana base
-1 tropical - 1 svamp + 1 verdant + 1 Bayou
You really want to be able to choose fetching BG or UG when you SB in Abrupt decay. this have been important for me many times.
Edit 2: Did not see the "missing" basic island. I recomand playing 1. Maybe -1 ponder (or a verdant if you want 15 lands)
I would not run either surgical extraction, jace, vryn’s prodigy, Aetherling or sire of insanity SB
You are the faster deck against dredge. Mirror is rarly relevant and in my opinion not worth sb slots. And against other decks there usualy is better options.
jace, vryn’s prodigy seems plain bad. way to slow, summoning sickness and to costly.
Atherling (against mircales?) is not needed in my opinion.
I have tested Sire. when she was good she was awesome. but she is often only good enough turn 1 (or turn 2 on the play). And against combo Iona is equal or better.
Some SB changes i would have made:
+1 Abrupt decay
+1 pithing needle
+1 Massacre if you are expecting D&T
You can also consider:
+1 echoing truth against decks that overload on permanent based yard hate (+ its an out against anoying Leylines)
+1 Ashen Rider (Omnitell)
+1 Inkwell (D&T++)
At the moment i am testing a 7th discard spell in my 75 (3 seize main and 4 duress sb). So far i have found it to be good against all combo decks and miracles. This way i often have the ability to check if the coast is clear before i cast entombe/reanimate, or distrupt their combo pieces until i find mine.
Hope you find some of this feedback useful and good luck! :smile:
Hey Nrodvoll, thanks for the input, here is my retort for my choices:
4 daze is where i want to be. The games that you play in the manner that your deck should, daze is often your best piece of permission. It's "free" and it stops them from interacting favorably on turns 1-3 typically, daze is great.
I like playing 8 pieces of reanimate effect, they are often unnecessary in multiples. The decks ways to enable the combo are so powerful that those spells are often the ones being fought over ( careful study, entomb etc.). I think that the redundancy is unnecessary, especially with 4 ponders here.
I think the mana base is well tuned to fit the list. playing an island with abrupt decay and multiple discard effects can hinder the turns where you are trying to be efficient, like casting a duress before a reanimate etc. Drawing the island in the games where every land matters is more than painful. Wasteland decks could care less about our blue source anyway, its our worst color, so in order to make decay more lucrative, all of my lands now cast it. there is no real scenario in which you would need a bayou with 2 trops and 2 swamps, and the double swamp has been very good so far.
Against dredge, i concede that we are the faster deck, yes, but surgical is a sort of catch all. The games in which the dredge player has their hate, and that we don't , we will lose, so i feel that it is a necessary nod of the head to play something that interacts with them. Surgical proves great in the matchups where we have to attempt to play a game of longevity. Against things like lands, where recursive things like glacial chasm, karakas and bojuka bog can be issues, surgical is delight. Otherwise, omnitell has a distinct difficulty winning without show and tells, and sneak and show without sneak attacks. In the mirror, i also believe that surgical is the best piece of reliable interaction.
the reasons that i believe jace to be good are:
1) He is a longevity powerhouse, looting will be good for the entirety of the game in the matchups where he is good, even through things like rest in peace and cage.
2) Alternatively he can kill them with his ultimate, flipping onto such a high loyalty means that he is a very real clock against things like miracles and shardless, jund and the other miscellaneous mashups where bolts and decays are no longer in their decks.
3) enabling our discard is good because careful study is really bad in match ups where we have to respect card advantage.
4) gives a sense of redundancy when he flips and is able to cantrip and flashback reanimate spells.
Again, this is all speculative, i have only tested the card so much, but i believe that individually the card is potent enough to be reasonable.
Aetherling has and will always be a staple in my reanimator list. Aetherling is irreplaceable against miracles. Granted, that is the only matchup where the card is good, but it is easily your best card there. My sideboard plan against all of the blue, non-combo decks is to board out all of the forces and dazes, in favor of decays and duresses, so this makes it difficult to stick threats through their infinite removal spells. Regardless of what variation or what their idea of the matchup is, discard is much better than counterspells. I want to stay proactive, and for that I sacrifice that slot on the board. Aetherling improves, what after board i think is a not great matchup, significantly.
Sire is for a myriad of decks, but is just generally good early everywhere that elesh norn and grave titan are bad, or some variation on that. Sire is basically unbeatable on turns 1-3, so i think it deserves its slot on the board. My main deck configuration is very fair, with grave titan and tyrant, so i like to have something more potent in the board for the matches with not only less permission, but also more longevity.
Again, this list is trying to portray why the deck is so powerful. Reanimator is very efficient, and low to the ground. Not a fan of 3 mana sorceries like show and tell, or lands like city of traitors that make your deck susceptible to things like daze, wasteland and spell pierce as much. feel like the mass of discard spells have been really good, 7 seems like a lot but based on the meta you expect, that could easily be correct.
Anyway, thanks for the input, keep it coming. Sorry the post is so long :)
Jake
Gilderbarin216:
I used to run 4 daze myself before, but i found them bad in multiples, and if the games drag out they lose value.. Thats my reason for cutting one. But as i said its a personal preferance (same with 9th reanimate spell)
Regarding land issues. 2 simplified scenarios:
1: Playing against D&T. You are on the draw with 2 fetchlands in your 7 + carefuel study + fattie + exhume. Your opponent play vial turn 1 + wasteland in hand. (This have been relevant for me more than once). If hi have no other strong plays, hi will waste your Underground Sea for sure.
2: Your oppoent have played an grafdiggers cage. You have reanimate, abrupt decay and draw entomb for your turn. You have 2 lands in play. Underground Sea + fetch If you fetch tropical you can abrupt in his endstep but not combo your turn if you dont draw another black mana source. Bayou will make it happen.
I think you are to worried about stopping other combo decks with surgical. Remember we are the faster deck. And in my experience Dredge choose Leyline as yardhate if they make room for it, Where surgical will do you little good. Against Omnitell i find it better to use discard. that way you can either check if the coast is clear to combo yourself or distrupt them if you have to. Surcial do you no good if you have combo in hand against their counterspells.
Regarding "jace":
We have enough enablers in entomb and careful study. in SB games we need to overcome the hate they bring.. witch usualy distrupt our yard somehow. extra enablers will do us no good.. And witch turn do you realistic see yourself using his main ability ? cast him turn 2 (without petal), use ability and combo turn 3. Provided they do nothing to stop us.
I think you and i play very different SB games against miracles :) Im not saying Aetherling is bad. Im just not convinced it deserve a slot over other sb options. i usualy reanimate /exhume grissel 1-2 times.. draw cards and try to close the game with a combination of iona + needles or gravetitan with force backup.
Have you played with sire alot? Because i have tested her. In matchups i wanted her to be good she was not strong enough after turn 1-2 on the play. and in other matchups where she worked, Iona usualy worked too :)
Anyway. Im not saying that i am right and you are wrong. im just speaking out of my own experience with this deck :)
Jake Moldowsky reanimates to top 6 atr SCG Legacy Open. Interesting, Show and tell free list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=89125
List from above, minus the jaces +1 duress, +1 disfigure. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaku
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilderbarin216
Sire is such a bomb, why is it not main? With the petals the t1 chance is there, and whats sweeter then a t1 sire?
I agree, an early Sire covers more than Iona, so for game one against an unknown opponent, I'd prefer the blunt instrument versus the clean scalpel that is Iona. I mean, I'm running through decks in my head, what would Iona potentially shut down that Sire wouldn't also crush?Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaku
Any chance you would like to do a tournament report?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilderbarin216
That would be verry nice indeet!Quote:
Originally Posted by bonkotsu
That's the thing an early Sire is only good in the early game aka the first two turns at most. At least with Iona your opponent wont be able to cast spells of the color of your choice if they happen to topdeck it, usually you'll name the color that interacts with us, the 7/7 evasive body also provides a clock. Sire is more prone to getting chump blocked if our opponents have any semblance of a board presence due to the 4 toughness.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Don't get me wrong if I see the Entomb, Reanimate on my first turn I'll go for sire. It's just his usefullness really suffers in the longer game.