Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YamiJoey
Darkblast isn't good against that deck at all. It kills an Unflipped Delver and THAT'S IT. They can protect Swiftspear, and generate value from Pyromancer anyway. Swiftspear and Aberration is a 2-1, and sometimes you won't even hit their guy with it. Play Disfigure. You can catch them with it when their guard is low (T1 Swiftspear, T2 Ponder) it costs less mana, and kills everything in one go. If they ever counter your second Darkblast, you lose the game on the spot. I've been playing a pair, and it seems good.
Deluge is a card I haven't thought about, and may be worth a look. Set it to 3 and you're going to have a good time, but you do end up Bolting yourself and killing basically all of your own dudes.
I played it and loved it. You could try it too before judging. Killing Pyro ASAP is good. Yes they might get one or two tokens, but nothing our Goyf cannot beat. If they get to keep Pyro for longer we are in serious trouble. The best part about Darkblast is you use it once and just leave it in the grave until you need it again.
But don't forget Darkblast really shines in other matchups as well: Elves and Death&Taxes. Both matchups are pretty tough, so we can definitely use some help there. I am very happy with my Darkblast right now.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
So far 3-2 at the gp. Had 1 bye then played ur delver, ur delver, uwr stoneforge, and ur delver.
Lost the last 2 so I'm in dream crushing mode.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zenzog
So far 3-2 at the gp. Had 1 bye then played ur delver, ur delver, uwr stoneforge, and ur delver.
Lost the last 2 so I'm in dream crushing mode.
Crush em good!
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
AKA "The Dream Crusher" lol
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zenzog
So far 3-2 at the gp. Had 1 bye then played ur delver, ur delver, uwr stoneforge, and ur delver.
Lost the last 2 so I'm in dream crushing mode.
Stoneblade variants are really tough for us. Sorry you had to run into one before the draw rounds.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Played a local last night, going 3-1 cashing out. I cut the stifles to meta a bit against all the UR Delvers I have been playing against. Normally I'm on the 4 stifle, 1 dimir and have cashed the past 3/4 locals. The one week I didn't cash I was back on the hymn/lily older list. I ran 3/2 pierce thoughtsieze split. Pierce was strong all day as keeping our creatures up and stopping walkers etc. There weren't any situations where I wished it was a stifle instead. Thoughtsieze felt weak for me, and dimir charm great removal that could fow fodder. I was happy with 3 daze, decent chance to have one in the opening hand and less drawn over a game.
12 creatures
Tarmo/delver/drs
29 spells
4bs/4ponder/4fow/4ad
3daze/3tc/3pierce
2thoughtsieze/2dimir
19 land
3usea/2trop/1bayou
9fetches/4waste
SB
2 Disfigure
2 Darkblast
2 flusterstorm
2 grafdigger's
2 golgari
1 vendilion
1 maelstrom
1 pierce
1 spell snare
1 null rod
R1 vs The Rock 1-2
Grindy games but bob/tarmo/lily with plow/AD get him there.
R2 Rug Delver 2-0
Drs keeps him off TC, pierce on bolts keeps threats alive.
R3 Dredge 2-1
Tarmo and delver beats and counters on dread return lock this up.
R4 Mono green agro brew 2-1
Tarmo and a better SB so wonders.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Played a tourney today with 75 participants.
Got a bad result, but the list wasn't the problem, apart from one match.
My 75:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cruise
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Decay
2 Disfigure
4 Sea
3 Tropical
8 Fetch
4 Wasteland
Side:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
R1: TES (TomT) 2-0
Game 1 I mull to a five with FoW. I draw another FoW which he doesn't get to see and he walks into it.
Game 2 I have a grip full of blue cards and he almost manages to fight through it. Almost. Not unlucky this round.
R2: Punishing Jund 0-2
Game 1 I get him to 1, he gets me to 0. So close! Still, my list is NOT tuned for this matchup, so...
Game 2 He hits me with 2x Waste and a Loam. I manage to exile the Loam but I am too far behind. Punishing Fire seals it.
R3: Deadguy Ale 2-0
Game 1 Flipped Delvers get him. I disrupt his game just enough to get there. Pretty close one.
Game 2 I feel more in control. He never really gets anything dangerous going and my guys get there.
R4: RiP/Helm Miracles 0-2
Game 1 I draw a tad awkward (drew both Disfigures, f.i.). His main deck rest in Peace does work, and his Top gets him answers wherever he needs them. Helm gets me.
Game 2 I draw even more awkward, while he gets everything he needs right when he needs it, even without Top this time. I had tuned my list to be good against Miracles. Sucks to be this helpless, but I strongly feel this was due to variance and I perhaps boarded wrong.
R5: Dredge 2-1
Game 1 I disrupt his early game. My guys kill him before he can go nuts.
Game 2 I misplay a bit, and I should have mulled my initial 7 away. I cannot stop him from going nuts this time.
Game 3 Cage, counters and Delvers are too much for him to handle.
R6: Red MUD 1-2
Game 1 I mull to a landless four. Never saw a coloured land in any of my hands. I FoW his Moon, but his next threat is enough. That 3-5 guy that fetches Blightsteel or so. You know.
Game 2 I stop all his sick stuff and just kill him like I am supposed to.
Game 3 I mull to a moah six, I have to cantrip so I cannot stop his Trinisphere which in turn makes me a turn slow to stop the Moon effect. Bad hands against Moon decks are auto-losses.
R7: UB Tezz 2-1
Game 1 I stop his sick stuff and kill him.
Game 2 I stumble over his Abyss (nice!). When I finally Grip that Abyss, he already pushed a Tezz the Seeker through, which finds him the Thopter combo. Did not know he had that. Extra sideboarding!
Game 3 He mulls to 6 and goes City>Signet. I Waste the City and Decay the Signet, and he never finds new mana before my team gets him. Wow, finally I was on the winning side of the variance again!
Conclusions:
- The list is great. I don't want to change a thing.
- Finding blue lands is hard, for some reason. 15 should be enough, right?
- Keeping in too many Decays against Miracles doesn't necessarily have to be punished by me drawing all of them. Two would have been sufficient.
- Force of Will is a great card. It'd be nice if I drew it more consistently.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Played a tourney today with 75 participants.
Got a bad result, but the list wasn't the problem, apart from one match.
My 75:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cruise
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Decay
2 Disfigure
4 Sea
3 Tropical
8 Fetch
4 Wasteland
Side:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
R1: TES (TomT) 2-0
Game 1 I mull to a five with FoW. I draw another FoW which he doesn't get to see and he walks into it.
Game 2 I have a grip full of blue cards and he almost manages to fight through it. Almost. Not unlucky this round.
R2: Punishing Jund 0-2
Game 1 I get him to 1, he gets me to 0. So close! Still, my list is NOT tuned for this matchup, so...
Game 2 He hits me with 2x Waste and a Loam. I manage to exile the Loam but I am too far behind. Punishing Fire seals it.
R3: Deadguy Ale 2-0
Game 1 Flipped Delvers get him. I disrupt his game just enough to get there. Pretty close one.
Game 2 I feel more in control. He never really gets anything dangerous going and my guys get there.
R4: RiP/Helm Miracles 0-2
Game 1 I draw a tad awkward (drew both Disfigures, f.i.). His main deck rest in Peace does work, and his Top gets him answers wherever he needs them. Helm gets me.
Game 2 I draw even more awkward, while he gets everything he needs right when he needs it, even without Top this time. I had tuned my list to be good against Miracles. Sucks to be this helpless, but I strongly feel this was due to variance and I perhaps boarded wrong.
R5: Dredge 2-1
Game 1 I disrupt his early game. My guys kill him before he can go nuts.
Game 2 I misplay a bit, and I should have mulled my initial 7 away. I cannot stop him from going nuts this time.
Game 3 Cage, counters and Delvers are too much for him to handle.
R6: Red MUD 1-2
Game 1 I mull to a landless four. Never saw a coloured land in any of my hands. I FoW his Moon, but his next threat is enough. That 3-5 guy that fetches Blightsteel or so. You know.
Game 2 I stop all his sick stuff and just kill him like I am supposed to.
Game 3 I mull to a moah six, I have to cantrip so I cannot stop his Trinisphere which in turn makes me a turn slow to stop the Moon effect. Bad hands against Moon decks are auto-losses.
R7: UB Tezz 2-1
Game 1 I stop his sick stuff and kill him.
Game 2 I stumble over his Abyss (nice!). When I finally Grip that Abyss, he already pushed a Tezz the Seeker through, which finds him the Thopter combo. Did not know he had that. Extra sideboarding!
Game 3 He mulls to 6 and goes City>Signet. I Waste the City and Decay the Signet, and he never finds new mana before my team gets him. Wow, finally I was on the winning side of the variance again!
Conclusions:
- The list is great. I don't want to change a thing.
- Finding blue lands is hard, for some reason. 15 should be enough, right?
- Keeping in too many Decays against Miracles doesn't necessarily have to be punished by me drawing all of them. Two would have been sufficient.
- Force of Will is a great card. It'd be nice if I drew it more consistently.
I'm really loving this deck, I played it at GPNJ. My dream was dead round 7 when I lost to the mirror (due to foolish sequencing misplays on my part). We play identical main deck lists, except I opted to use the Dimir Charm instead of the third Spell Pierce. My conclusion is that that was a mistake. I'm not sure if I'd go for a third Pierce, third Disfigure, or even try to stretch Stifle into the deck somehow, but all of those options would be better than the Charm.
I played a one-of Spell Snare in the sideboard and it pulled its weight multiple times. I think for some smaller tournaments I might consider even cutting the Dimir Charm in my build for a Spell Snare. Anyone else have a lot of success with Spell Snare?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hey all,
Just thought I'd post here because y'all are my fav. Went 13-2 with UWR Delver, I think it's the new TA. The deck is absolutely insane with sb CB, so I would recommend trying to get some of the cards and making the switch, at least until UR Delver becomes less popular. In which case, Lili+friends will be good again.
I'll probably write up a report for CFB
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blackened
I'm really loving this deck, I played it at GPNJ. My dream was dead round 7 when I lost to the mirror (due to foolish sequencing misplays on my part). We play identical main deck lists, except I opted to use the Dimir Charm instead of the third Spell Pierce. My conclusion is that that was a mistake. I'm not sure if I'd go for a third Pierce, third Disfigure, or even try to stretch Stifle into the deck somehow, but all of those options would be better than the Charm.
I played a one-of Spell Snare in the sideboard and it pulled its weight multiple times. I think for some smaller tournaments I might consider even cutting the Dimir Charm in my build for a Spell Snare. Anyone else have a lot of success with Spell Snare?
Nice, a fellow traveler! :smile: :cool:
I wouldn't call Dimir Charm a mistake. It's a matter of choice.
There's a few things I don't like about it:
1. It's a tad expensive: I need two Duals to cast it (not counting Deathrite, since he usually dies). Keeping two open to use its counter ability is hard.
2. It doesn't hit quite a few important guys: flipped Delver, Goyf, Clique, Batterskull token.
I opted to make sure I never run the risk of having cards stuck in my hand other than Cruise.
That's why all the BB cost cards have gone, and putting a similar card back in felt wrong.
So these are the reasons why I decided not to run it. It's still a solid card though. Versatile.
Snare might be a solid choice, even for the main deck.
I would love to try it. There were many CMC2 cards that are annoying.
What does your sideboard look like?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Hey all,
Just thought I'd post here because y'all are my fav. Went 13-2 with UWR Delver, I think it's the new TA. The deck is absolutely insane with sb CB, so I would recommend trying to get some of the cards and making the switch, at least until UR Delver becomes less popular. In which case, Lili+friends will be good again.
I'll probably write up a report for CFB
There were 25 Stoneforge Mystics in the 16 Day 1 undefeated lists. It's the go-to creature at this point, replacing Tarmogoyf in that role.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
There were 25 Stoneforge Mystics in the 16 Day 1 undefeated lists. It's the go-to creature at this point, replacing Tarmogoyf in that role.
Still someone made it into the top 16.
It would be interesting to see a overall number of decks archetypes played to see if it's just variance which makes it look like that. You know if all the Bug players switched to Rug/esper whatever, of course there will be less in the top16, but that doesnt make the other decks better. the meta is so diverse that it's hard to see which are truly the best decks.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nossirag
Still someone made it into the top 16.
It would be interesting to see a overall number of decks archetypes played to see if it's just variance which makes it look like that. You know if all the Bug players switched to Rug, of course there will be less in the top16, but that doesnt make the other decks better. the meta is so diverse that it's hard to see which are truly the best decks.
It'd be nice to see Daniel Signorini and Noah Cohen's lists. Those were the two BUG Delver's at 33 points after round 14.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Hey all,
Just thought I'd post here because y'all are my fav. Went 13-2 with UWR Delver, I think it's the new TA. The deck is absolutely insane with sb CB, so I would recommend trying to get some of the cards and making the switch, at least until UR Delver becomes less popular. In which case, Lili+friends will be good again.
I'll probably write up a report for CFB
Looking forward to the report, and congrats on your finish.
I'm consistently unimpressed by SFM as a creature, which limits the odds that I'll be picking up UWR. I definitely see the attraction to CB, and more than that, to Pyroblast/REB in UWR. I haven't found UR to be a problem for TA at all, and Blade decks are all beatable with appropriate sideboarding even if the game 1s run slightly unfavorable if Batterskull shows up. There's definitely less Miracles for us to prey on, so traditional TA might not be the best. Ironically, Shardless beats both Blade variants and UR soundly, though it's a little soft to ANT/TES.
Anyway, I'm more likely to try Eli Kassis' UBR control list than I am to pick up white for SFM/StP.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
It'd be nice to see Daniel Signorini and Noah Cohen's lists. Those were the two BUG Delver's at 33 points after round 14.
Yes.
You can also take a look at the trial winners if have seen some bug lists winning those.
I'm also with the maverick player who said in the interview that tarmo is pretty strong in the meta because hes pretty resilient when it comes to red removal.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nossirag
Yes.
You can also take a look at the trial winners if have seen some bug lists winning those.
I'm also with the maverick player who said in the interview that tarmo is pretty strong in the meta because hes pretty resilient when it comes to red removal.
No Goyfs in the top 8 at GP NJ. Another Treasure Cruise mission accomplished. TC heavily disrupted the three best Goyf lists in the meta in RUG Canadian, BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. It took Jund down another notch as well, even though that didn't need to happen at this point.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
No Goyfs in the top 8 at GP NJ. Another Treasure Cruise mission accomplished. TC heavily disrupted the three best Goyf lists in the meta in RUG Canadian, BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. It took Jund down another notch as well, even though that didn't need to happen at this point.
Yay, but is this because the good bug players lost to other treasure cruise deck or because most of them wanted to play the “best“ decks currently and jumped on the uwr, blade, ur hype train?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nossirag
Yay, but is this because the good bug players lost to other treasure cruise deck or because most of them wanted to play the “best“ decks currently and jumped on the uwr, blade, ur hype train?
I think it is because Treasure Cruise devalued black heavily and green somewhat in the overall meta and people found more effective synergies in lists that were not black and green.
Stoneforge Mystic is a good card. It isn't at Goyf's power level overall but once the other cards that Goyf synergizes with have been weakened some SFM becomes an excellent 2 drop to replace Goyf.
I could be wrong on this but I am guessing that the BUG lists that did well at GPNJ were more heavily blue than normal and much less black. My own experience in prepping for GPNJ with BUG was that blue was the way to go but that tribal matchups were a problem. I didn't attend for a multitude of reasons but one really big one was that I thought BUG and Jund were unfavored in the current meta and those are the lists I own.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
No Goyfs in the top 8 at GP NJ. Another Treasure Cruise mission accomplished. TC heavily disrupted the three best Goyf lists in the meta in RUG Canadian, BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. It took Jund down another notch as well, even though that didn't need to happen at this point.
I'm highly skeptical of this being the cause. I've never had a problem keeping 4/5 Goyfs in Cruise mirrors, and BUG Delver cleaned up in the last chance GPTs on Friday, winning five of them, in both Hymn/Liliana and Stifle configurations. Even with some of these lists being suboptimal for running fewer than 4 MD Forces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nossirag
Yay, but is this because the good bug players lost to other treasure cruise deck or because most of them wanted to play the “best“ decks currently and jumped on the uwr, blade, ur hype train?
I suspect this is closer to reality, with the major driver being deck choice. A lot of us have the cards to build just about any legacy blue deck we want, and I think many people wanted to play the best Cruise deck (UR Delver) or the best anti-UR Delver/maindeck Pyroblast deck (UWR Blade) rather than something like BUG Delver that's generally strong but can't support Blasts. I definitely don't think it's a bad decision to play this deck, but I also definitely see the attraction to the REB/Pyroblast plan.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Ok, time for some more random thoughts thrown together.
1. I believe many people don't really test, dont get me wrong, maybe they play a deck for a few games but most of the time this isnt enough to erase variance and get a unbiased opinion, so they choose their deck based on recent results and hype.
2. Like BTM said many legacy players have the cards to build multiple decks. BUG used to be the deck which is the best against an open field, so it was a logical choice for many people.
3. Now people wanted to play U/R or anti UR. See 1.
4. Which led to even less combo and so on - made the meta more fair.
5. a reason for running white instead of green/ black is definitely not batterskull(lifesteal and the body is good) but Jitte, its like an automatic win vs U/R and other fair decks.
6. Tarmo and Abrupt Decay are very good in a fair meta. Deathrite Shaman is also good vs TC and the usual graveyard things running around.
