[Primer] Nic Fit

For reference, I believe that discard is bad because:

lands - discard is awful
elves - discard is awful (brutality gets a bit of a pass)
DnT - discard is awful (therapy is fine, but you'd never board in thoughtseize)
storm - discard is fine
show and tell - discard is fine
shardless - discard is awful
aluren - discard is awful
eldrazi / dragonstompy - discard is unplayable
delver - discard is questionable, but usually not worth it over other sideboard options

If Brainstorm had been banned, you might have a compelling argument. As it stands, with the upcoming expected format, I really don't think that discard is worth sideboarding over permanent-based hate options that can flex between combo decks.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

I have never been a fan of FOW in Nic Fit tbh.
But Nissa could be tested.
If you want, I'll try it instead of explore. But beware that the deck is really fluid right now; messing with the curve is something I would do after testing the initial list.

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I've never liked FoW either, which is why I generally discourage blue. But I think that in a PW focused build which won't be worrying about GSZ anyways it could be justified. I'm not sure if a Nic Fit shell is right for a Nissa/Jace team but there's a lot of natural synergy there.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

For reference, I believe that discard is bad because:

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Anything in a cantrip shell is too resilient to discard. Some discard is important, which goes back to the strength of Cabal Therapy, but we've always been hesitant to play too much. I don't think that changes.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I've never liked FoW either, which is why I generally discourage blue. But I think that in a PW focused build which won't be worrying about GSZ anyways it could be justified. I'm not sure if a Nic Fit shell is right for a Nissa/Jace team but there's a lot of natural synergy there.



Anything in a cantrip shell is too resilient to discard. Some discard is important, which goes back to the strength of Cabal Therapy, but we've always been hesitant to play too much. I don't think that changes.

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Yeah, I agree. I just want to curb the enthusiasm of the 4 Therpay 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn folks. If you want to sideboard a pair of Thoughtseizes like we did before, I wouldn't fault you - but I think it's incorrect to do so in lieu of more powerful, better suited sideboard options given the format I believe is coming.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Yeah, I agree. I just want to curb the enthusiasm of the 4 Therpay 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn folks. If you want to sideboard a pair of Thoughtseizes like we did before, I wouldn't fault you - but I think it's incorrect to do so in lieu of more powerful, better suited sideboard options given the format I believe is coming.

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Last year I had some experiments with Tidehollow Sculler. At the time I supported that card over Thoughtseize based on the argument that when we use discard we're mostly trying to establish some minor disruption plus a clock, and that card does it. I eventually had to move away from that card because Terminus was just awful. It might be able to make a comeback now though.

Discard+Clock is how you beat decks like S&T and Storm. Off curve discard (Brutality, Sculler) is how you keep interaction through a Chalice of the Void. Plus, being a creature Prelate can't lock it out (assuming that becomes relevant).

It's still pretty horrid against Toxic Deluge though. So that's something to consider, but I do like that it's discard we can Volraths for in the mid game. That it exiles (until the Sculler dies) is also super relevant since if you discard the reanimation target out of Reanimator they can't just Reanimate it. And even blowing their Brutality to kill it, puts it back in their hand. Also nice is that it ends up not fueling Delve so it's a rare discard option that's positive rather than negative tempo.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Last year I had some experiments with Tidehollow Sculler. At the time I supported that card over Thoughtseize based on the argument that when we use discard we're mostly trying to establish some minor disruption plus a clock, and that card does it. I eventually had to move away from that card because Terminus was just awful. It might be able to make a comeback now though.

Discard+Clock is how you beat decks like S&T and Storm. Off curve discard (Brutality, Sculler) is how you keep interaction through a Chalice of the Void. Plus, being a creature Prelate can't lock it out (assuming that becomes relevant).

It's still pretty horrid against Toxic Deluge though. So that's something to consider, but I do like that it's discard we can Volraths for in the mid game. That it exiles (until the Sculler dies) is also super relevant since if you discard the reanimation target out of Reanimator they can't just Reanimate it. And even blowing their Brutality to kill it, puts it back in their hand. Also nice is that it ends up not fueling Delve so it's a rare discard option that's positive rather than negative tempo.

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To add my 2 cents, you can even sacrifice Tidehollow to Phyrexian Tower in response to the trigger if the opponent has a card you don't want him to recover and you have another form of applying pressure. Not that it is relevant super often but it's a nice trick to have in mind.

Burn is going to be played more as well, and I wouldn't mind additional discard against that in a non rhino version. Yesterday a lot of people I played were on burn, in this "panic metagame" where nobody knows what to play.
Anyways now that miracles is gone I'm going to focus on junk and bug, and I don't play hymn in those decks.

By the way yesterday I played a couple of hours with the bug list and I have to say that 3 brainstorm (instead of top) and 2 perilous research provide quite the "smoothness" (excuse my lack of a better terminology) of the deck; 2 PR is the perfect number and count also as ramp for VE, giving us something to do in the early game to transition to the late game. The deck is a grinding machine, I'll post the deck list soon if someone is interested.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Burn is going to be played more as well, and I wouldn't mind additional discard against that in a non rhino version. Yesterday a lot of people I played were on burn, in this "panic metagame" where nobody knows what to play.
Anyways now that miracles is gone I'm going to focus on junk and bug, and I don't play hymn in those decks.

By the way yesterday I played a couple of hours with the bug list and I have to say that 3 brainstorm (instead of top) and 2 perilous research provide quite the "smoothness" (excuse my lack of a better terminology) of the deck; 2 PR is the perfect number and count also as ramp for VE, giving us something to do in the early game to transition to the late game. The deck is a grinding machine, I'll post the deck list soon if someone is interested.

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I am also on BUG and would be interested in seeing your list.

Has anyone tested Ishkanah, Grafwidow in nic-fit? Kinda good when delirium. But with top gone, it's even harder to get delerium in the deck :(

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

Has anyone tested Ishkanah, Grafwidow in nic-fit? Kinda good when delirium. But with top gone, it's even harder to get delerium in the deck :(

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I did.
I really like it but it is kind of slow.

But if you have a mean to bounce it every turn, it becomes dirty...

Made an attempt at merging SE+Rhinos. Not sure how this would do, but it stays within the desired curve, and still keeps almost all of the card advantage of SE. It's even built to maximize the chance of a T2 Rhino. Given that we'll be using Library a lot more again, I'm looking at Rhinos to get a few more cards out of it.

I know there's a lot of rhino fans out there, so here's something to try

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Why the split of Path, Swords, and Push? just hedging to see what feels best as the meta progresses?

Nyx Fit players, how are we changing top? I think that Nyx, being one of the nic fit that runs more deeds, is hit not-so-gently: moreover i don't think that Truths are the perfect replacement, for example: i'm missing top especially in the first two turns, when our deck isn't very interactive, and in the late game (for this, Truths is good).

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Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

Nyx Fit players, how are we changing top? I think that Nyx, being one of the nic fit that runs more deeds, is hit not-so-gently: moreover i don't think that Truths are the perfect replacement, for example: i'm missing top especially in the first two turns, when our deck isn't very interactive, and in the late game (for this, Truths is good).

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I'm currently on 1 Truths, 1 Diabolic Intent, and 1 Sylvan Library in the card selection slots. I'm also running more early interaction (swords/decay/brutality) than before, which gives us more stuff to do in the early turns.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

Why the split of Path, Swords, and Push? just hedging to see what feels best as the meta progresses?

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Playing low numbers of lots of similar cards means your entire removal suite has less chance of being blanked in certain matchups. StP will cause you to lose against Lands for example, but Path is quite poor against DRS, while Push is bad against Anglers. If you can't predict a specific meta, it's best to go broad so that you always have the best option for the situation as a viable draw in your deck. I'm doing something similar with Deed/Deluge/Vindicate, and Courser/Tracker/Library/Bob.

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Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

Nyx Fit players, how are we changing top? I think that Nyx, being one of the nic fit that runs more deeds, is hit not-so-gently: moreover i don't think that Truths are the perfect replacement, for example: i'm missing top especially in the first two turns, when our deck isn't very interactive, and in the late game (for this, Truths is good).

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I think that the biggest change to Nyx is that the EvoLeap versions full firmly ahead (instead of just being probably better like they were before).

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

For reference, I believe that discard is bad because:

lands - discard is awful
elves - discard is awful (brutality gets a bit of a pass)
DnT - discard is awful (therapy is fine, but you'd never board in thoughtseize)
storm - discard is fine
show and tell - discard is fine
shardless - discard is awful
aluren - discard is awful
eldrazi / dragonstompy - discard is unplayable
delver - discard is questionable, but usually not worth it over other sideboard options

If Brainstorm had been banned, you might have a compelling argument. As it stands, with the upcoming expected format, I really don't think that discard is worth sideboarding over permanent-based hate options that can flex between combo decks.

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I actually kind of like non thoughtseize discard against delver. It can often take their only threat in hand forcing them to go off tempo and use their turn 1 to ponder instead to find a threat and when they don't have a threat on board their mana denial is much weaker because they aren't really getting ahead.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I'm currently on 1 Truths, 1 Diabolic Intent, and 1 Sylvan Library in the card selection slots. I'm also running more early interaction (swords/decay/brutality) than before, which gives us more stuff to do in the early turns.

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But running more spot removal isn't worse now without top, after the first turns?
I dunno if we should try an even more souls-oriented version, with diabolic intent and maybe 3x of leap?

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Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

Nyx Fit players, how are we changing top?

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I've swapped top for intent, the third leap and a brutality. Intent and leap are obvious, but brutality less so.
Here are my reasoning : the flexibility (sac outlet, removal, discard, lifegain), the velocity (being able to transform cards that would be useless/slow into an extra effect) and most of all the capacity to "not draw" cards I don't want to draw (because I'd rather have them in my graveyard ready to be starfielded than in my hand).

So not a CQ engine but a nice cog in the deck.

But the main thing is : leap is good with lingering souls, so good.

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Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

But running more spot removal isn't worse now without top, after the first turns?
I dunno if we should try an even more souls-oriented version, with diabolic intent and maybe 3x of leap?

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That seems odd to me. Extra removal can almost always find a use.

I've switched to 4 Swords, 2 Decay, 2 Brutality. -1 Swords +1 Brutality is something I may consider later - Brutality is great against Stifle since you can Duress + give your Vet/Rector -2/-2. I want to be guaranteed to kill early stuff through taxing effects (Thalia/Daze). Lifegain is zero concern. Deck is going to lose vast majority of the time by drawing clunky and uninteractive hands imo. I mean, a single opposing Deathrite (with green mana) completely shuts us off Rector, so we really can't afford to let them live for long. Opposing Deathrites also eat up Lingering Souls which makes me sad.

More souls is something I've considered, though I'm already at 3. Card is so very good right now. I like 2 Evo Leap so far, but I hate the idea of adding more and seeing multiples in hand or drawn be completely useless.

Edit: I'm on 2 Sylvan Library btw.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I actually kind of like non thoughtseize discard against delver. It can often take their only threat in hand forcing them to go off tempo and use their turn 1 to ponder instead to find a threat and when they don't have a threat on board their mana denial is much weaker because they aren't really getting ahead.

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Most of this is my thinking about the typical "sideboard at least 2 Thoughtseizes," which became such a staple of the deck that we stopped questioning it, and I think that was a big mistake, especially with the arrival of Lands as a premier combo deck that really just aggressively doesn't care about discard.

Therapy is fine against a large number of those decks. Shardless is the only deck I routinely board Therapies out vs, and that's a point that has been a very contentious one in the past.