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Okay, What's the point of this card? I play this deck for over a year now but I still don't get why people play this card in their board...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibbie_X
Could someone explain me against what you board it in, and what you board out for it and why there aren't any better options?
Gibbie_X: Congrats on your result, shame about the misregister.
Just a couple of questions on choices..
How did 2 x Exploration go for you? I just assumed it wasn't as good in the low-land count versions (ie 19).
Did you ever find yourself wishing for a Moat but didn't have one? Or is 4xEG & 3xSC enough? I'd like to know if Moat is essential before I splash out for one hehe.
Can you support Blood Moon with 4 Utopia's, or is Taiga still required? The lack of synergy just irks me hehe. Was this a factor in other matchups or only ANT?
Did you find yourself winning with Sigil by swinging, or with Panda combo more? If its the former, why do you like Sigil over Mesa? (just curious). I guess I like using up all the sanctum mana to pump Mesa, but maybe it dies to Pyroclasm/Engineereed Plague etc more.
I think the idea of Sigil is that you no longer have to be in control (or even have an Enchantress on the board) to make it work. I'm testing it out in my blue version right now (the casting cost is irking me, though).
Dovescape with Elephant Grass or Solitary Confinement or an Enchantress or 2 is as close to a lock (barring Progenitus or Dreadnought or something) as you need. I think it's overkill, but it fills slots and gives you random wins!
@ Green One:
Not if thei're playing Sulfuric Vortex i guess...
@ GreenOne - OH GOD, why was I not made aware of this card? ah well.
@ Overseer - Dovescape works in this deck only because you can draw when you make the birds, so you make more birds, wash, rinse, repeat, and you have Solitary Confinement, so they can't do anything to stop it. They make birds to block your birds, but you make more then they do.
@ AcidFiend - Exploration worked very well. I beat an ANT deck with it actually. This was an 8 man during day 2, I got second in it, so I actually won something that day. 4 packs.
Anywho, Exploration allows you to dump more and more lands when you draw them, or be able to drop a much needed Sanctum. And it still draws cards.
Grass was the bee's knees my friend, the wasp's nipples. I am working with a budget, and Confinement buys you time against combo. I traded my Moat away, I'm not looking back.
Blood Moon is one of those really weird cards, in my opinion, and I struggled with it. I didn't see much of the Moon, or when I did, it was unnecessary or even dead. I wouldn't need the Taiga if I didn't have the Moon, in all honesty. I know the Sprawl is more then enough for Pandemonium. I think the meta has shifted, making red really viable. Burn to Goblins to Sligh to Painter, Red has power now. The Blood Moon actually hinders us in these match-ups, I think at least. True, it can be a kick in the nuts for some blue decks, but you don't hit those very early. This may catch a boot...
Sigil is the what the bees and the wasps are drooling over. My imperial match, the first game, I drop that third turn with no Enchantress in play. I had a really bad hand against that deck, but he did too. I still won with it and Pandemonium. I was swinging with them as well as shoot him. I think it's better because you can cast it and not worry about it as much as Mesa. At least with Hoofprints, you don't have to pay an upkeep, which we end up doing at the beginning of our upkeep. I'd rather use Sanctum to drop Sigil early, or make the mana necessary to go ape shit. But I don't try to depend on the Sanctum, because one of makes it hard to find.
My killing apparatus with this deck was so wide, I killed in various ways ever time. No two were a like. But I swung with angels, and it was brutal.
has anyone tested chrome mox in this deck?
Step 1: Read the thread.Quote:
has anyone tested chrome mox in this deck?
Step 2: Ask stupid questions.
Step 3: Witness a verbal warning issued for general asshattery
-TOOL
Viscosity: Yes there's been lengthy discussions on it, you'd have to dig through the thread though.
Well I've been doing more testing lately for an upcoming local tournament in two weeks, as well as the usual goldfishing. I was trying 3 ESG's for speed, trying to get Argothian first turn / 2nd turn Enchantress. It also lets you play around Daze, and was generally useful.
That said, I'm going to drop it. Mainly because for every game this helps you, there's two or three where it is meh, and another one where it actually stops you going off (you needed to draw an enchantment and you got this). I wanted it to be good enough, but its not :(
I also found my list too much of a Toolbox, having like 9 singletons. It made for some very random draws. Sure you can tutor up an answer to anything, but this deck has the perfect answer already in Solitary. I wanted to focus on getting that in play asap. So I decided to relegate some tools to the sideboard just so my main list is was consistent as possible.
I respect Gibbie_X's Pandeburst tech and results, and either I'm just not as good a player or that combo just hasn't worked for me (or both). In a mirror game where I got Sigil & Pande it was a wrecking ball; most likely though Sigil would have won me the game the turn after.
I've found the casting cost of the pieces (Sigil 5, Burst 5, Pande 4) is too high. Its stopped me in the middle of 'going off' because I didn't have the mana. Ideally you don't draw them till later but you will draw them at awkward times. I'm still going to test Sigil over Mesa, but have gone back to Words of War as my other win con.
Here's my attempt at going back to streamlined:
4 x Argothian
4 x Enchantress
4 x Utopia Sprawl
3 x Wild Growth
2 x Exploration
2 x Mirri's Guile
1 x Sylvan Library
4 x Ground Seal
4 x Sterling Grove
4 x Elephant Grass
1 x Aura of Silence
1 x Oblivion Ring
3 x Solitary Confinement
2 x Replenish
1 x Words of War
1 x Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 x Windswept Heath
2 x Savannah
9 x Forest
2 x Plains
2 x Serra Sanctum
Sideboard:
1 x CoP: Red
1 x Warmth
2 x Choke
1 x Spiritual Focus
1 x Karmic Justice
1 x Wheel of Sun & Moon
1 x Suppression Field
1 x Seal of Primordium
1 x Aura of Silence
1 x Runed Halo
1 x Rule of Law
2 x Sacred Ground
1 x Oblivion Ring
Hey guys, what do we think about a possible Living Wish inclusion? Seems good to me, allows a more consistent third turn Enchantress (out of the SB). Seems cute to steal a Squee from the board to keep a Confinement lock going with only one Enchantress effect. I also love the idea of a Maze of Ith, seems good at shutting down that 12/12 or 5/5 that you just cant E-Grass to oblivion.
Any ideas?
I think dropping ESG was a good idea. You're right, it's a useless card at completely the wrong time. Sprawl, Exploration, and Wild Growth are plenty of acceleration. You shouldn't have to worry about Daze if on the second turn with those with the Argothian, they will throw a FoW at that puppy if you have the mana against Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidFiend
I think the Tool Box of Enchantress is what makes it unique and dangerous. Your list looks good, but i think you need to trade the Ground Seals for O-Rings. 4 Seals is excessive, trust me, you don't need that much extra card draw, even if you have Words. Some of the tools in the box protect the Confinement, since it is the the safety net of the deck.
I doubt you are a bad player, my build can be tricky. I think the deck could stay afloat with just a couple Sigils as the kill. And why would the casting cost of anything be a concern with Serra's Sanctum? Usually I would tap that and still have mana left, and either I'd burn, or they were already dead.
Hmm I meant you can play a second turn Argothian, they Daze, you ESG and pay the mana - zing!! While cute, it still didn't make up for its more useless moments.
I was hoping Sterling Grove would be enough to protect Solitary, but I may move an extra O-ring in depending on testing. Plus less tools to fetch means more Sterlings to protect. Oooh I think that rhymed :p I was sad to cut Karmic Justice,, but after a string of bad hands and losing momentum by not hitting enchantments, I went a little cantrip-crazy. I agree this build does lose a little of the fun factor of a bigger toolbox. Karmic obviously comes back in against Rock and Stax, I'm just not sure how much play I'll see of those.
I'm testing a build with three Sigils. Looks like no one runs so many, but I must say they're fine.
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
3 Plains
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Chrome Mox
3 Wild Growth
3 Utopia Sprawl
3 Elephant Grass
3 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Oblivion Ring
2 City of Solitude
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Words of War
2 Replenish
2 Moat
3 Sigil of the Empty Throne
Sideboard:
1 City of Solitude
2 Replenish
2 Karmic Justice
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Runed Halo
1 Dovescape
4 Chalice of the Void
Weird card choices:
- 1 Horizon Canopy: fourth Savannah, sacrificed more often than it seems even if you think you should always have something better to do.
- 1 Taiga + 1 Plateau: one of them should be enough when Replenish is also valid. I guess I never want to choose red with Utopia Sprawl.
- Chrome Mox: I prefer them over Exploration. I know it's been widely discussed in this thread, but I'll need some time to read it all. I'll post my thoughts on that when I'm finished.
- City of Solitude: metagame choice. Note the lack of Karmic Justice maindeck, they're unnecessary since there are so few Pernicious Deeds around here. Weird metagame indeed.
- Sigil of the Empty Throne: it's too good to play just 1-2, although I'm mostly alone on this topic.
Since this list's philosophy favors copious amounts of good general cards over silver bullets, we could say it has no toolbox at all. That explains why 3 Sterling Grove rather than 4.
Most sideboard cards are self-explanatory. City of Solitude against control, Karmic Justice against mass removal, Seals to help or replace Oblivion Rings, and the rest against storm combo. Replenish can go with both City and/or Justice.
You really don't justify playing three Sigils except by saying they are good. Why is three better than one? Sure, you drop it sooner, but what are you trying to race that you have to play one so soon and unprotected? Aggro? You should be beating them handily. Thresh? I don't see why playing one early is a necessity. Combo? I wouldn't try. Really, there is no use for playing three because it just clogs the hand. If you play the deck correctly, getting one destroyed or countered shouldn't mean gg. You have Replenish, tutors to get a win con, and a ton of draw to let you get the Replenish or a WoW.
I really think dedicating those slots to something else would serve you a lot better.
Edit- You don't need a "toolbox" for Sterling Grove. It tutors for your engine, your protection, your win condition, and it shuts off Grip. I never understand people not running 4.
You also run 3/3 split of Sprawl and Growth. Why? Sprawl is pretty much better than Wild Growth in everything except the whole thing of needing a forest which you have plenty of. I also want to recommend playing the 4th Elephant Grass since it is what wins you the Ichorid and Goblin MU as well as slowing down Thresh, Merfolk, Slivers, and anything else with creatures.
Hi,
There was a Legacy iPod side event at the GP in Hanover, Germany, sunday. I was there and rolled Enchantress. I’m glad I did, cause I went Top 8 of 101 participants. Here (Planet MTG) or here (Germagic) are the Top 8 players and their standing after round 7.
And here’s a brief summary
1. Goyf Sligh
I could win easily in the first game allthough I only had 3 life left. In the second game I locked him before he could get me below 14 life or even drop his pyrstatic pillar.
1-0-0/2:0
2. Affinity
my opponent got a game loss, because he only had 55 cards in his decklist and such sloppy writing the judges couldn’t figure out what he was playing. He had to write a new decklist and 12 minutes later we started playing. He had an awesome start, but thanks to my Aura of Silence I won fair and square.
2-0-0/4:0
3. Wb Weenie
Vials, Serra Avenger, Bob...
Sry, but I really don’t know what happened in the first game... ...I just won. Like that: *snip*
In the second game he played an armageddon before I had a sacred ground on the board. Luckily, I had forest, exploration, serra’s sanctum in hand and an enchantress effect in play. He dropped me to 1 life, but I managed to protect myself via confinement and won extremely fast with sigil.
3-0-0/6:0
4. UGW Aggro Control
Now in this game I win quite fast for Enchantress, that’s all I remember. Game two, which is more important anyway, was quite exciting. He played 2 noble hierarchs on turn 2 followed by a rhox war monk, beating me for 5 each turn. Even more shocking is, his EE for 2, which he can activate the same turn he played it, cause of his hierarchs. It kills my two argothians and leaves me without an engine. Surprisingly he counters all Ground Seals I play, so I conclude he plays Academy Ruins and at least a second EE, cause you always play at least 2 explosives with ruins. At 5 life I have to win this turn or lose the game. I drop a confinement with 2 enchantress effects in play and play a lot of cc1 cards in order to find karmic justice. I play the justice with my leftover mana and pass the turn. He shows me his second EE in hand and scoops, because of the justice.
4-0-0/8:0
5. against Nicolas Jathe with Uwgb Dreadstill without Standstill
Nicolas is in the Top 8, too. This match was the most intense one in the tournament. I play an argothian on turn 2. he plays a Trygon Predator on turn 3!! I have to play Grass rather than Presence on the following turn, because of the Predator, he plays a trinket mage and tutors a Dreadnought, which he plays on his following turn together with a Top. I try to play a confinement, protecting me from the Predators effect, but he counters it and I take 16 dmg on the next turn dropping me to 3 life. He also plays Counterbalance. Now I’m able to drop an Aura, kill his Nought and play a Moat with mana from sanctum. He can only attack with the Predator and I drop to 1. Now I have to be careful, because I don’t want mana burn from my sanctum. With still only 1 enchantress effect I attempt to play Confinement. He looks at the top 3 cards of his library... my heart is doing at least 750 bpm while he rearranges his top 3 cards. Finally, he says “ok, resolves” wow, I am one lucky guy^^ I manage to stabilise and after a while my second replenish resolves, bringing back Words of War. I win with only a couple of cards left in my library. This match lasted about 40 minutes. We start game two, but don’t have enough time and turns to finish it (I would have needed two more turns to win...) and draw.
5-0-0/9:0
6. When the round starts my opponent isn’t there and he gets a game loss. After ten more precious minutes i call the judge, because he still didn’t show up and he gets a match loss.
6-0-0/9:0
7. I know my next match is against Goblins and I know I can easily win this MU, but to definitely be sure to be in the Top 8 and to have time to get a pic drawn on my playmat, I offer a draw.
6-0-1/9:0
At this point I’m first in standings and didn’t lose a SINGLE GAME. Michael Filler who is placed 9th gets to play Top 8, cause some guy needed to catch his flight to France. The judges announce, as soon as I lose a match, I recieve 19 boosters. The second in standings gets 16 boosters when eliminated, the third 14 and so on...
Quarterfinals
My opponent is Michael Filler and I already know he’s playing Merfolks. I keep a hand with 4 lands, my only enchantress effect is dazed and I draw nothing but lands for the next 4 or 5 turns... Allthough I played Grass and kept it for 4 turns, he can attack with 2 creatures each turn. I lose due to extreme mana flooding.
In the second game I take a mulli and keep a hand with one forest, sprawl and a bunch of cc3 cards. No land in my second turn, but I topdeck a forest in the third turn. He counters two of my enchantress effects, the third one stays. I play choke (here my friends told me after the match, I apparently forgot to draw a card off of presence... damn, I could have needed one more card at the end of this match) and choke resolves, but doesn’t hinder him, cause of 2 creatures, a vial and 5 lands, two of which are nonislands. I draw no single land until the end of the match and am stuck with only 3 mana. I never experienced such bad draws from enchantress. In my last turn I have one enchantress effect on the board, 3 mana, a confinement in hand and a grass in hand. I decide to play the grass in order to get around a counter, hope to draw a land and play the confinement in sequence. I should have just played the confinement, because he spellstutter sprites my grass (wouldn’t have happened to confinement) and I don’t draw a land. gg. To exceed all expectations I reveal the top card of my library showing a basic forest. Dang, I really needed that land, but come to think of it I’m not sure how long the confinement would have lasted with only 1 enchantress effect and few cards in hand...
I’m not sure but I probably got placed 5th or 6th because of my opponent win percentage and recieved the second best prize of 19 boosters. Michael Filler the Merfolk Man battles Nicolas Jathe in the Finals and wins a black iPod with 80 GB
Dr.Agon - congrats on your Top 8.
2 Englightened Tutor in the Main? Interesting..
Would you make any changes to your deck post-tourney, or were happy with the list as is? What worked best / didn't work at all for you?
Enlightened Tutor is freakin awesome!! You don't have to mulli that often, cause you almost always have either an enchantress effect or a tutor (grove or enlightened) in hand. You don't have to wait until you have two groves in order to tutor while keeping your enchantments protected. Tutors are so important, in a deck which isn't that fast. you don't have to play so many low mana cost cards just to grind through your deck in search of 1 needed card. the drawback of it not being an enchantment is minor, cause you save time being able to play the right solution, disruption, threat, protection, wincon when you really need it. most of the time you draw the tutored card right off the top thanks to an enchantress effect and then you can play it right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidFiend
It barely slows you down when played right and the advantage of the right card played at the right time makes up for the drawback.
Enlightened Tutor gets even better after boarding and you're able to play a wider variety of meta cards in your board. allthough, I wouldn't suggest playing only 1 ofs in your board^^
sadly, I didn't play against combo, or aggro loam so I can only write my previous experiences against ANT, TES and aggro loam. I'm perfectly glad with my list and a dozen tournament play and MU analysis affirmed that. Exploration is still better than Gaea's Touch in my opinion. Double white never was a problem.
It was my first time playing 1/1 runed halo main/board, but I really like it. But I wouldn't recommend playing more than a total of 2. Maybe, I'll play a blood moon again for a choke or city. I found out boarding 3 chokes, 3 city, 1 replenish, 2 karmic justice against control is waaaayyyy too much and your mana curve does weird things. just not right.
Sigil is badass shit!! Most of the time it's even faster than Words of War!! One is enough though. keep your mana curve in mind. The fourth confinement in the board works great if you want to drop confinement turn 3 and I don't have any problems keeping the confinement alive.
My overall impression is great though. I love this list, love the deck and love the artwork. Just don't make any mistakes and if you do learn from them, so they'll never happen again.
Tell that to Gabriel Nassif who won a Pro Tour with 15 singletons :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AgOn
I guess Enlightened Tutor is kinda cool in that you can keep a Sterling Grove on the board if its your only one (for protection), and you can do it end of their turn for the 'surprise factor' as its instant. Something I might test later.
Thanks for your insights :smile:
Nice work Dr. AgOn. Way to represent. I did giggle at this.
Your opponents name was BYE, and don't worry, he never shows up. I hate playing that guy, seriously.Quote:
6. When the round starts my opponent isn’t there and he gets a game loss. After ten more precious minutes i call the judge, because he still didn’t show up and he gets a match loss.
6-0-0/9:0
Pity you didn't get goblins first round of the Top 8, you would have won the whole thing. I really like the tutors, and at the same time, I don't know. Guile's is so good to me, and I always seem to draw multiples of Grove. That may be lucky, but I find it bloody hindering awkward when I draw all 4 on turn 3 or 4. I bet Tutor was helpful against the blue decks. I am curious, why 3 Ground Seal, just to get the extra card, or is your meta so nasty that they go right for your graveyard? I am down for protecting Replenish targets, ok, so maybe 2 isn't a bad idea.
Yeah, usually 2 Chokes will usually do it against control. When I played these, I usually drew 2 of them as well, so one would stick.
@ gibbie:
I really didn't have a bye. my opponent was supposed to be Dannny de Rooij (the other goblin player who made top 8). After the judge gave the match loss, I stayed for about 3 more minutes and talked with friends and went to buy something to eat. When I came back my friends told me, that Danny showed up about 3 minutes after I left the table. he was totally pissed, but it was his own fault^^
and why 3 ground seals? here's the answer: it stops extirpate, ruins and loam. and to be honest, I really expected a lot of aggro loam, lands, CAL... But the best part about it is it's acceleration!! 2 mana for >2 cards --> awesome. and i would never board these out against burn, combo and fast aggro decks, because ground seals help me race those decks.
I've found them addictive too *blush*Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AgOn