hey, im trying to put together a cunning landstill build and i was wondering what you guys thought about a wishboard slot.
return to dust
or
dismantling blow
any thoughts? preferences?
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hey, im trying to put together a cunning landstill build and i was wondering what you guys thought about a wishboard slot.
return to dust
or
dismantling blow
any thoughts? preferences?
Guys, I know what Deed does, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking why you would run Deed over Damnation in a deck that wants to establish the countertop engine asap.
If you're playing any white based build with 2-3 colors, go with Return to Dust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burr
If you're playing a 4c build, go with Dismantlig Blow/Krosan Grip.
The thing I really like about Return to Dust is that it produces card advantage (especially good against any Chalice based aggro decks [equipements are hell to deal with as they turn every creature into a must handle] and stuff like Stax or Enchantress) and gets rid of the problematic stuff totally (especially good against Survival based decks who now can't just nab a Witness and go crazy again).
Dismantling Blow is okay too but I've never paid the kicker on it so I'd rather have Krosan Grip for additional security in 4c builds(some people don't think and let your Wish resolve or don't do stuf like Survivaling for recursion in responce to Wish).
Simple:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
If you've assembled CounterTop early enough, you don't need Deed/Damnation.
If not, you want the more flexible/powerfull effect of Deed over Damnation.
Also, if you're going to pop a Deed whith stuff of you on the table, you're still creating card advantage in most cases.
The biggest drawback for me that Deed has is its steep cost (color hungry and forces you to pay twice, sort of like an Akroma's Vengeance that you can pay over 2 turns) and its needlability (people should still play Needle in NQG!).
Countertop is not bulletproof, even Goblins can play around it all day. And that one turn difference there is between Deed and Damnation/WoG, can easily be crucial against Goblins.
Deed also gets the rid of Goblins in Turn 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
It shouldn't spell only Goblins but nothing but Goblins can play around it efficiently thanks to their curve that's all over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
Against any other deck, getting Balance+Top working by turn3 or 4 will mean that you won't have any problems in the next time (they have to set up a massive assault, to outmana you), just sit on your shuffle effects and develop your manabase. Any threat that slipped through earlier can be handled via FoW or spot removal.
This to say, I am no proponent of CounterTop in Landstill, but it could be good in some sort of Aggro-Control Landstill hybrid with Tarmogoyfs, Garruks, Shackles and so forth to play proactive cards over the more traditional/reactive stuff (sample lists: this and this).
Not only against Goblins but against most aggro decks (esp. Aggro Loam), that's exactly why I personally prefer UWb over 4c.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
I didn't say ONLY against Goblins. Please stop being such a wise a**. Saying that Goblins is the only deck that can play around CounterTop is just plain wrong.
Sounds more like chalice was MVP. Extirpate would have won you theese games just as easily, and couldnt have been countered like your hardcast leyline. Also, B >>> 2BBQuote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Because, a lot of times, you'd don't. It's not like every card miraculously appears whenever you want it--let alone two of them that are both 3-ofs. Sure, some times you get Counterbalance and Divining Top together; more often you get one and not the other and some games you just win without seeing either.Quote:
I'm asking why you would run Deed over Damnation in a deck that wants to establish the countertop engine asap.
Also, CB doesn't stabilize anything--it occasionally helps to keep things from getting out of hand. But if you're getting pummeled by two threshed Mongeese and a Tarmogoyf--CounterTop is going to do nothing for you.
EE, Deed and Shackles are the board control parts of the deck. And I don't think I've ever once Deed'd a Counterbalance away. You can take my word for it, but it'd be better if you just tested it out yourself to see what I mean.
This does require that you play the deck correctly, and not deliberately make poor play decisions so that you're nuking CB without an extremely good reason to do so.
Seriously, though, any anti-synergy between the cards is really more theoretical and partically never comes up.
I board out CounterTop + Spell Snares for 4x BEB + 4x Plagues. CounterTop is jank against Gobs. It's slow, mana intensive and almost never counters Gobs most threatening cards anyway. (Not even counting Vial here.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
True. You board it out against decks where it's poor--though that doesn't make up that many decks (not good ones, anyway).Quote:
I didn't say ONLY against Goblins. ... Saying that Goblins is the only deck that can play around CounterTop is just plain wrong.
Uhm.. That still doesn't justify running Deed over Damnation, since the latter takes care of the creatures beating you down as well, but WITHOUT destroying your own CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
I am not saying that Deed is a bad card at all, it's just not always the right choice.
You're conveniently cherry-picking to make a point that I'm not making. I stated my reasons why Deed > Damnation above (post 1099). I then stated that CB provides a much different function in the deck than either Deed or Damnation offer (post 1109). I concluded that I've never once blown up my own CB with a Deed, and that the concern is more abstract than practical.Quote:
Originally Posted by sigar
None of this is to say that you shouldn't test Damnation over Deed in my list, just that the concern of nuking your own goodies is unwarranted.
My only point is that sometimes a WoG effect is better than Deed.
Well, sure. And there are times when Rend Spirit is better than StP, but that doesn't mean we should play it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
The question: Do the relative benefits of Deed over Damnation, in this particular deck, compensate for its relative weaknesses. Given the randomness of Legacy, the power and efficiency of non-creature permanents that are vulnerable to Deed, and all its other upsides, Deed is overall the correct card. For the same reason, I would (and do) play Engineered Explosives over Damnation in this format too.
-_- meh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Wow! That's a huge generalisation. You cannot really compare it that way. EE, Deed and Damnation/WoG all serves different purposes. In some decks you actually do NOT wanna blow up your own artifacts and enchantments, while in others (like landstill) it doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
In your deck in particular I wouldn't run Deed due to EE, Shackles, Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. And it's guaranteed that your opponent will board in Needles too, which makes Damnation even better.
Don't get me wrong, my goal is not to "win" the thread or say your deck is bad. I just like to discuss different options and card choices.
Have you considered a singleton Crucible of Worlds and maybe 1-2 wastelands?
Here's my thoughts on deed vs. damnation:
Damnation:
1. If you're playing countertop, it avoids bombing your own lock pieces.
2. Can't be needled or stifled.
3. The creatures can't be regenerated.
Pernicious Deed:
1. Can kill anything other than planeswalkers and lands, and in some cases lands too (mishra's factory) making it very versitile.
2. Works much better in the legacy format, where creatures are a small fraction of threats, unlike standard where every deck is creature based. (Legacy has goblins but they play around WoG effects all day)
3. Cheaper CC (3 vs 4), meaning it comes down faster and it's harder to disrupt.
4. Easier to cast mana wise (seriously) when you're playing a 4c or the 3c build. (BG is usually more flexible than BB)
5. It's a permanent so you can drop it and save it for when you need it.
6. It is almost never a dead card where damnation is very frequently dead. The only matchup where deed is useless is mono red pure burn and some combo (damnation would be dead here as well).
For these reasons deed is best suited to the legacy format making it argueably the best sweeper for landstill. For a lot of the same reasons above, EE would also be much better than damnation. However in standard control I'd run a WoG or damnation in a second over deed or EE (asuming they're somehow allowed in the format) just because creatures with fluctuating mana costs are much more prevelent prevelant.
Deed is more of a format decision than a metagame decision.
In the UWb version Wrath of god is better... but seriously now, generalizations are never good, especially when it comes to an archtype so diverse as landstill.
It is the ultimate metagaming deck, as you can always customize it to do well in all environments.
Simply saying Deed is better than wrath/damnation is just being a bad player or bad person (you take your pick).
Deed is more versatile, yes, but you also have to put into account what you are trying to accomplish and what you are going to see across the table from you.
Deed is worse against goblins (slower and more mana intensives if you really look at it), and is pointless (well just as effective as wrath) if they are playing threshold (wrath is just as effective here, unless they have CB, in which case you still have EE).
Regenerating creatures can be annoyances as well (troll is a big pain for Ugwb), but wrath kills it without problication.
I am not saying one is better than the other overall, just that you have to take the entire picture into account, and what build of landstill you are playing...
Please no more generalizations, it hurts the thread more than helps.
I disagree. Hitting Vials is pretty huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
I haven't tested either, but I think if you know when to pop it, Deed is the clear winner. It is like playing Akroma's Vengeance and Humility. When you are in control, don't play Vengeance. Bardo has obviously had success with Deed so I would listen to him until you test it.
1. I disagree. Being able to kill their Vials along with the horde of goblins is very strong. Deed turns your countermagic back on, whereas Wrath only kills creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
2. Is this seriously a problem?
I don't agree with this, in some metas at least. In the two or three color versions, Explosives excels against thresh and fish, but I'd found myself in many situations against random decks, goblins, or survival where I wish I had a boardsweeper, rather than an EE. Deed is obviously more powerful in both matchups, but I don't run the 4c version. I'd run them if such a card was available in a 3 color version, though. (Disk, Vengeance?) Explosives is a nice Disenchant-effect, but isn't always a board-sweeper against some decks like it is against thresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Bardo's arguement is not really that big of a generalization if you really think about it. Mainly because Bardo has explained before why he prefers deed and EE over wrath and damnation. When he states generalizations he backs them up with valid points which is one of the reasons why Bardo is a strong legacy article writer on starcity games IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
I also think that saying your opponent is guaranteed to board in pithing needles is a bold generalization to an extent though. Also just because the opposing player is boarding in pithing needles doesn't mean you should play wrath/damnation over deed and EE. Their drawbacks are quite below their utility agenda in Legacy.
I am also with Bardo here I generally think deed and EE are better because they are more flexible to cast compared to damnation and wrath on a consistent basis. Deed is also generally more efficient against cephalid breakfast, countertop thresh, goblins, and etc for obvious reasons then wog/damnation.
Although, I still think uwb landstill is still an strong choice for the metagame since the deck pretty much brings consistency and versatility to work in one system.
Wrong. I can only Extirpate after he loams, so he would already get the 3 lands back. And then he can Burning Wish for Loam again. So really Leyline is a lot better against 43.lands, because it prevents loam from ever being relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Media314r8