[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Illissius

Mogg Fanatic has come up from time to time, and the verdict thus far -- which I agreed with -- has always been "keep him". Is this still the case? Ichorid and Breakfast are diminishing in popularity, and decks which play creatures these days often play extremely fat ones -- Goyf, Doran, Crusher, and friends. Fanatic's potential impact on games seems to be much lower right now than at any time in recent memory; the only two important creatures I can think of offhand which are still commonly played and he kills are Birds of Paradise and Dark Confidant (EDIT: okay, and I obviously forgot the mirror, where he kills Lackey). Is this enough to keep playing him? A 1/1 who deals one damage is just a lower level of power than basically every other card in the deck. Would it be worth cutting him for more of the more powerful removal options, for example? Weirdings and Gempalms and such. There's also definitely the issue of mana curve to consider, though.

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I'm pretty sure you keep him because he's a goblin that fits the curve perfectly. In stuff like Zoo or Boros the only card that was red in the 1 mana slot was Lavamancer, and I don't think that's any better than Fanatic here. The fact is that Fanatic can be huge in any given game because of the math advantages it can provide. In my build (Which is TB's from a few pages back), he gets the added advantage of being that "deal 1 uncounterable damage per turn" with Wort. I don't think I'd ever cut him. Ever.

But does he merit a 4-of slot these days? What is the right proportion of Weirdings/Incinerators/Fanatics in a meta that sees fewer delightful targets for the damn 1/1 who always kills my Birds of Paradise...? <request from a long time SotF player, cut him entirely, thx....>

I think he does. I think with Weirding/Incinerator etc, you go something like this:
4 Fanatic
3-4 Weirding
1-3 Incinerator
0-1 Sharpshooter

Of course, it depends on the meta, and the rest of the maindeck. I just know that Weirding is VERY strong in conjunction with Incinerator. As sometimes you will Incinerator the goyf, weirding the mongoose, and swing for the win.

I personally like:
Main:
4 Fanatic
2 Weirding
2 Incinerator

Side:
2 Weirding

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Originally Posted by kabal

She really wasn't a factor, has neither was Weirding. It wasn't because I didn't see either, just because Goblins was Goblins ... Lackey into relevant Goblins FTW.

There was twice were the combo of Wort and Weirding could have been game breaking. Once against Reanimator where I had Wort in play and Weirding in hand and it was the same Vs. Salvagers.

Honestly, Hooligan much more relevant this tournament. Most of the time I wished I had MB > 1

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Would you have still won this tournament if you were running R/G with 3-4 maindecked Hooligans and no Weirding/Wort? Would you have won it even easier?

I'm not trying to make a point. I seriously want to know your opinion on this.

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Would you have still won this tournament if you were running R/G with 3-4 maindecked Hooligans and no Weirding/Wort? Would you have won it even easier?

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I think it's a little bit hard to answer this question, based on suppositions like that..well we'll see.
I think a 3-3 WW/Incinerator MD could be interesting.

Alright, so, if I play Goblins at the next tournament, here's the list I'm going in with.

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

SB:
3/4 Pyrokinesis
4 Warren Weirding
4 Krosan Grip
3/4 Tormod's Crypt

So yes, I'm splashing black exclusively for Warren Weirding. This is essentially my RG list with +2 Badlands, +4 SB Warren Weirding, -1 Taiga, -1 Mountain, -4 SB Spitebellows. The 4th Hooligan could be a Wort (Or 3rd and 4th could be Gempalm/Wort), but they aren't. That's not the point I want to argue.

Above is a streamlined splash list. The entire maindeck list functions on only red (Although Hooligan becomes just a 2/1 beater.) Pyrokinesis will help against creature-based combo, Goblin mirrors, Sui Black, and anything with small threats. Warren Weirding's for the bigger guys. The Tarmogoyfs, the Dorans, the Nimble Mongeese, the Arc-Sloggers, etc. I stuck with Crypt even with the Black splash because I don't need a color (or mana at all, for that matter) to cast it, regardless of when I get it, and I like the ability to go Mountain/Fanatic/Crypt on turn one against Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast.

So I guess my point is that this is a list designed to emphasize the strengths of mono-red, excluding Wasteland vulnerability, by making hitting the splash colors entirely optional, thereby improving consistency. Thoughts on the validity of this strategy or the build in general?

(Also, after tinkering around with Eva Green, I've started questioning my Krosan Grip slots on occasion. Is Seal of Primordium worth a possible split to avoid problems with things like Therapy/Extirpate, along with the ability to hit Standstill if it's out pre-emptively? Or does Krosan Grip's raw power make it correct for all four slots?)

I'd probably run weirding as a 1-off main. Also wort is really great maindeck.

Just something small but I think bloodstained mire > windswept heath.

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

Just something small but I think bloodstained mire > windswept heath.

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Er. I do run Mire, not Heath. (And that's a pretty huge difference.) I just typed that in wrong. Fixed.

How useful have the Ports been? I used to run 4 in my build (before Green or Black splashes became good, ahh the good ole days of RW Gobs), but haven't been running them lately as they haven't been nearly as useful in matches.

I would also advocate the inclusion of Wort, though a lot of times she can be a win-more card, she can also give you a win that you shouldn't have had otherwise (basically, she's not strictly a win-more card). Being able to continually cycle Polluter is amazing, as well (not just for picking of critters, but to get through your deck quicker as well).

Last, what's your thoughts on Mad Auntie? Especially if you're facing a lot of other Goblin decks, she is amazing. Especially with Red Thresh (ie. Lightning Bolts) seemingly the most popular build, it's reall nice to be able regen a guy (or make them waste a Bolt on Auntie while Piledriver swings for the win).

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Originally Posted by xycsoscyx

How useful have the Ports been? I used to run 4 in my build (before Green or Black splashes became good, ahh the good ole days of RW Gobs), but haven't been running them lately as they haven't been nearly as useful in matches.

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I like two. Here's why.

In the old days of Goblins, turn one Vial, turn two-through-five Port-your-land-while-my-Vial-Wins was a very powerful strategy. Now, decks are faster. Tarmogoyfs hit at the speed of light, Moxes and accelerators are everywhere, pitch spells are everywhere, and the Port strategy isn't as powerful as it used to be.

But sometimes, Port is still really really good and can still win you games. It can keep people off a color, off a mana period, and it's still really good against Landstill.

The biggest drawback of the 4-Port days was how occasionally you'd hit a mana configuration of something like Mountain, Wasteland, Port, Port, and be sitting there with Warchiefs in your hand going "Dur..." a lot. Multiple Ports in the faster (Tarmogoyf-filled) metagame suck. Bad.

4 Wastelands and 2 Ports puts me rarely struggling for a second red, and lets me use Port when I get it, if I need to, without worrying about hitting multiples of it very often and without running so many that it hurts me color-wise very often.

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I would also advocate the inclusion of Wort, though a lot of times she can be a win-more card, she can also give you a win that you shouldn't have had otherwise (basically, she's not strictly a win-more card). Being able to continually cycle Polluter is amazing, as well (not just for picking of critters, but to get through your deck quicker as well).

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Eh. It's possible. I'm just not a fan. I want anything that's a 4-drop or higher to give me instant gratification. Ringleader refills my hand whether you remove it or not, and Siege-Gang's going to give me three goblins on the board to play with and skyrocket my Gempalm power. Wort has to wait a turn to do anything cool. Granted, she's fantastic if she sticks, but the tempo loss if she gets removed is crippling.

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Last, what's your thoughts on Mad Auntie? Especially if you're facing a lot of other Goblin decks, she is amazing. Especially with Red Thresh (ie. Lightning Bolts) seemingly the most popular build, it's reall nice to be able regen a guy (or make them waste a Bolt on Auntie while Piledriver swings for the win).

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I dislike Mad Auntie for the same reasons I like Tin-Street Hooligan: Warchief interaction. Auntie can't do her regen ability immediately unless you have a Warchief in play, and if you have a Warchief in play, your opponent doesn't have a Lightning Bolt anyway.

In other words:

Tin-Street Hooligan: Best without a Warchief, but if you have a Chief down, you usually don't need his ability.

Mad Auntie: Best with a Warchief, but if you have a Chief down, you usually don't need her ability.

If nothing else, though, she does allow you to swing into a lone Goyf blocker if there aren't any other problems. So would Warren Weirding, though.

Plus, Mad Auntie, while good, just doesn't outshine any other Goblin in the deck enough to warrant a slot for me. That and I can't play her if I'm held to just red, which is a crucial point for my maindeck.

Other than the fact that I would switch one Tin Street and one Wierding from Sb to main and vice versa, I think this list is very strong. I agree that Wort is not all its cracked up to be. She is underwhelming a lot of th time she hits, and when she would actually be game breaking she just dies. Very nice list Taco.

Tacosnape: Why the 4 Tin-Street? What do you really want to blow up all that bad and that often? Also, 22 land seems a bit below the standard, especially with 3 colors and 6 non red source, have you found that to be a problem?

If i were to play goblins, it would seem that having sort of a toolbox of creatures to search with ringleader and matron would seem strong. 3c goblins with singletons of weirding, banneret, wort, tin-street, and mad auntie (and maybe earwig squad or sharpshooter) could cause alot of damage. Wort and weirding are incredible together and weirding is still a great card by itself.

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Originally Posted by technogeek5000

If i were to play goblins, it would seem that having sort of a toolbox of creatures to search with ringleader and matron would seem strong. 3c goblins with singletons of weirding, banneret, wort, tin-street, and mad auntie (and maybe earwig squad or sharpshooter) could cause alot of damage. Wort and weirding are incredible together and weirding is still a great card by itself.

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The problem with that is you're cutting alot of meat for conditionally good cards. How mant matchups do you really need sharpshooter or squad or auntie, etc to win game 1? I think with Wort, and to an extent Weirding, being a big part of the deck, game 1s for Goblins have gotten alot better.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

Tacosnape: Why the 4 Tin-Street? What do you really want to blow up all that bad and that often?

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Nothing in particular, although it's nice to be able to just obliterate Affinity, smash Jitte to pieces, and cause general havoc/asshattery.

Why I'm a huge fan of him is his curve. He's a 2/1 in the deck's weakest slot, the 2-Curve, as the only other -drop- on the 2-curve is Piledriver. With a Chief out, he's a 2/1 beater for :r:.

Additionally, with 4 Tin-Streets, I don't ever feel like I have to hold one back (Unless I know I'm aiming for something specific.) I just drop them and if there's an artifact target, dandy. If not, I've got a beater and a Gempalm-pumper on the board.

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Also, 22 land seems a bit below the standard, especially with 3 colors and 6 non red source, have you found that to be a problem?

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Not a huge one. 16 Red sources and a whopping 8 2-drops makes 22 work just fine, especially when factoring in Lackey/Vial/Chief.

How much better is Tin Street #4 than Tinkerer #1?

They are both filling out the 2cc part of the curve and both serve as Gempalm pumpage. Im not sure how big a difference a 1/2 is vs the 2/1 is for everyone else, but in my experience it hasn't been huge. There is the issue of whether you need to kill artifacts right away with Tin Street vs having to wait with Tinkerer. However, there is also the point that tinkerer can kill multiple artifacts, so the issue of how you want to kill artifacts is kind of a grey area. The biggest difference between the two, IMO, is when you have a Warchief out.

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Originally Posted by Taco

Tin-Street Hooligan: Best without a Warchief, but if you have a Chief down, you usually don't need his ability.

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Ok, so you usually dont need to kill artifacts with a warchief out, but what happens when you do? Id rather have the option to search up my 1 of Tinkerer in that situation, and I probably be willing to sacrifice whatever drawback Tinkerer poses at other times.

It's similar to the idea of having a Gempalm/Weirding split when dealing with creatures. You sacrifice the risk of one card being inefficient in some situations, in order to have the option available to you in situations where the card shines. If I was willing to devote 4 goblin slots to killing artifacts then I would want to make the most of them.

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Originally Posted by technogeek5000

If i were to play goblins, it would seem that having sort of a toolbox of creatures to search with ringleader and matron would seem strong. 3c goblins with singletons of weirding, banneret, wort, tin-street, and mad auntie (and maybe earwig squad or sharpshooter) could cause alot of damage. Wort and weirding are incredible together and weirding is still a great card by itself.

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I don't understand when people like making decks quite with a lot of 1 ofs, when you have tutors such as ringleader and matron. When you try to do too much with a deck to go away with what the deck does well. You don't want to lose consistency when playing Goblins as its one of its strongest attributes.

The only current 1 ofs that I play is Goblin Sharpshooter, 1 Wort Boggart Auntie and 1 Tin Street Hooligan.

I am interested in why there is no discussion at all about cards like Frogtosser Banneret, Mad Auntie, and especially Earwig Squad. There is a lot of talk over at Salvation on this. After reading what Finn and some others had to say, I made a list with Earwigs, Weirdings, and Chrome Moxes. While I have not been to a tournament with it yet, I have had a much easier time beating much of the standard hard matchups in testing. I do think we would need to hammer out some of the details, though. It was complicated trying to figure out how to manage the early turns. A turn two attacking Piledriver alone is now kinda good when you have three mana available. Squad is good with the mox, but not with the Lackey. And does a Warchief make Prowl cheaper?

I've been doing a lot of testing with black over the last 2 months or so. Here are my thoughts so far:

Wort, Boggart Auntie - I've rarely been able to use her effectively. I think I've used her for a weirding lock once, but even then I think it was just a win more. Usually by the time I drop her, my opponent has enough creature hate ready to take care of her. She is seems to be a priority target for my opponent. I've been running her as a 2 of, and I'm probably dropping her.

Mad Auntie - Better in the mirror than king. Have to have a warchief out to use her. I face a lot of plague hate, and she has been very good to counter plague. In a plague deck, she is a priority target.

Warren Wierding- Sux in the mirror, great early but after multiple creatures are out it becomes very weak.

Earwig Squad- Your 3 turns in and hope you can get a goblin through to use him. Oh ya you can't attack that turn. He has helped some, but also not being able to swing the turn he drops does hurt. Doesn't do well with lackey or vial. He wants to fit in the deck, but doesn't feel like he does.

Boggart Mob - Win more. When I've used him, Siege gang would of done just as good.

So far running black (I use 22 lands, 3 ports, 2 wastes) I have had more than a few games where I just couldn't get the right land down. Running black give the deck a more control fill, but feels like it slows goblins down. I have actually finished on average worse than when i was running mono red. In my opinion, black just gets in the way of being a fast aggro deck and makes the deck more controlish. Goblins hasn't done very well for me in this form.