Printable View
Ewokslayer has been testing REB. Personally, I don't see the use. It's not going to be Mage removal, and it's worse than Twincast in the Mirror. Also, the only way to make room for it is to cut the uncounterable Mage removal and that's the real reason to run red. Also, Urza's Rage is an alternate win condition. Granted, it doesn't come up terribly often, but it beats the evrloving shit out of Stifle/Blessing.
Reasons to run REB is because it's flexible. Not only does it remove Mage, but it can counter another hard counter. IMO, that's reason enough to run it. Against certain Gro players who let Tide resolve, REB can be suprisingly helpful at budgeting mana and still counter another hard counter aimed at your untap effect.
In my playtesting, I often board in REB/Pyro along with Twincast, not in place of it. REB/Pyro replaces Force of Will for card advantage reasons, and Twincast replaces Remand.
Why not? Mage is blue and REB kills blue stuff. Although REB is not uncounterable like Sudden Shock, it's more versatile and mana efficient against Mage/counter decks. REB helps in counterwars when comboing off and it's usually not dead mid combo since you can target your opponent's countermagic still on the stack.Quote:
REB... It's not going to be Mage removal
The problem with this is that almost every deck in existence that packs two artifacts to shoot, presumably Chalice and some other random Stax piece like Trinisphere or Smokestack or even the second Chalice, runs four Wastelands. This means in order to R&R away the pieces, you'll have to expose yourself to said Wastelands, which you have said you didn't want to do against Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6er
Now against an actual true Stax build, I can see where you'd have the time to recover from the loss of a land, as Stax's clock is slower than a paraplegic in a footrace. But against Faerie Stompy, Junk Pile, or any Chalice Aggro deck, this seems like it could be pretty crucial. What's more, it doesn't seem impossible or even improbable that a true Stax build could manage to play as many as four disruption pieces, meaning even if you counter one and Rack the other two, there could still be one out there. Chalice has always been tricky to go off around, and the fact that you'll be likely to lose a land to Wasteland in this scenario makes it harder to go off around the rogue Trinisphere.
I had been doing well against Stax and Goblins both by running 3 Rebuilds in sideboard, siding two in when Chalice was anticipated, and being able to cycle them while going off if needed. I must admit the idea of Red has me intrigued, but I'm curious to know how you handle the Wasteland problem.
Some questions to the above.
What kind of meta were you expecting? A lot of gro I suppose?
Does the addition of think twice slow the deck down?
Based on your experiences do you think the addition of red is worth it in a random meta or only in very defined meta's?
Here in Belgium we are experiencing a revival of black. Last sunday I played a local tournament with 30+ people attending. First place split was between an altered pikula deck and hanni fish.
I myself played solidarity.
First round I win (barely) against white weenie (I had four turns for a draw spell and proceeded to get 3 land and something irrelevant losing me the first game).
Second round I play against a fast affinity deck. I get very decent draws and proceed to win very easily.
Third round I know I have a good chance of encountering landstill. But alas it's the black deck that will eventually split for the win.
First game goes something like swamp-dark ritual-piracy charm-hymn and second turn sinkhole. I recover a little and I am forced to go off at 3 land. I think I made a playing error with an impulse not taking my time so I lose.
Second game is dark ritual, piracy charm and sinkhole (which i force i believe). Second turn hymn. Then he proceeds to a nantuko. With nantuko in play he twice topdecks a ritual killing me too soon to do anything.
Fourth round I play against 8-land stompy.
First game I fail to see the danger of a resolved rancor (I could have forced it but chose to count on my rather good hand). I combo at four land resolving 2 impulses and a meditate to find another untap effect. In vain because they were all in the bottom half of the deck.
Second game I am forced to go off on three lands (I had issues finding land). And altough I have a decent hand I don't manage to go past his two blessings just falling short.
Frustrated I drop and go home.
Top 8 contained another pikula, 2 goblins, 8-land stompy, 1 affinity, 1 landstill
Ok now I understand why you'd want Think Twice against aggro/control, but wouldn't a third Flash of Insight be at least as useful as one of the Think Twice? Maybe -1 Twincast, -2 Peek, +2 Think Twice, +1 Flash of Insight; The only real concern would be that Flash costs 3 to setup without carddisadvantage and that you need atleast 1 other blue card in the grave during the combo (so other Flash of Insight will be weaker during the combo) however specifically against Threshold I'd say generally you do have the time to set it up for 3 mana and unless they run Jötun Grunt it is not that hard to always keep a blue card in your grave so it can work like Think Twice.
The red splash looks completely reasonable and solid to me. Nice tech! However is Starstorm really the best choice considering you need both your Volcanics to be able to play it?
While writing this I had the idea of a different approach to the whole deck. What if we focus even more on our grave and the flashback mechanic? Playing perhaps 4 Think Twice, 4 Flash of Insight and 4 Brainfreeze maindeck (maybe with 4 Cunning Wishes as well)? This could slow the deck down but make the "freeze yourself" plan really powerful and could make the Thresh and Fish matchup even better.
OK, guess I'll start bottom up.
@Silverdragon: With a single Volcanic in play, you can use an untap effect to get another red. Also, Flash costs 3. Think Twice costs 2. Finding the THIRD land is much more difficult than finding the second. Also, Flash is an emergency type card. You don't WANT to have to kill it's utility just to draw a single extra card. That's why Think Twice is good. It allows you to; find the third land, gain Card Advantage, and save Flashes for later. The 4 of everything plan is no good. Flash is terrible in multiples and antisynergistic with each other. Wishes are slow and not terribly efficient. You would slow the deck down ENTIRELY too much.
@Reagens: Think Twice slows the deck down just a little bit. However, the advantages of running it against discard are obvious. Also, I had thought there to be a much higher concentration of Aggro/Control and that's the metagame the deck was aimed for. Also, just as a note, Starstorm is pretty RIDICULOUS against Stompy :).
@Tacosnape: Yes, I know that against Stax Rack and Ruin might cost me a land, however against Fairy Stompy it won't. Also, I don't think it will be terribly often that a third piece of hate resolves. Granted, the first two could have gotten through before I found Force, but the third? I'm not terribly certain about that. Also, how did you fit 3 Rebuilds into your board and why? Unless your metagame has 7 Stax players and you as the only people, I can't see a real reason behind it.
@Jamest: REB isn't Mage removal because it's counterable. I play the uncounterable removal in order to return the gamestate to something that I can take advantage of. Also, Twincast is better than REB. Force is also free. You want the deck to be about versatility instead of about countermagic. Also, what does your sideboard look like? Sounds to me it might be too geared toward the Threshold matchup.
@AntiAmerican: REB is not nearly as flexible as Twincast is. Those Threshold players you speak of are letting Tide resolve because it 'turns on' another piece of countermagic. REB is decent, but it's not what the deck needs. Why REB something when you can jut leave it on the stack and come back to it later when it's on the stack and you have Force + Irrelevant blue card? Too much countermagic will also kill your draws. I like JUST Force. I've also tested REB and found it to be unsatisfactory.
I figure I will put in my two cents.
I am still in favor of Rebuild over Rack and Ruin. Perhaps it is just the numerous good times I have had with the card. Completely wiping out a Stax deck's board is some good (I <3 Phyrexian Warbeast).
I also believe that at least a single REB should be in the board. The card is versatile and cheap. In mana tight situations where you can't afford the uncounterable answers to mage it provides what you need.
I have thought about going up to more REB's to actually board in against I suppose Gro and the Mirror, but it does seem fairly awful in the mirror and only marginal against Gro but I haven't been able to test how useful attacking their hand manipulation is.
Beyond that.
How they heck do you lose to Enchantress and the Mirror?
I think you are about one more loss in the mirror from having your privileges to discuss that matchup revoked. :smile:
I think rack and ruin is more useful against affinity tough. Because they can build up there board again so easily. I think I will be testing the new changes but on first sight I really doubt the usefullness of starstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewokslayer
In general for the guys who already tested.
Did you have any problems getting to double red? It seems a tall order from time to time. How many times did you draw a volcanic knowing it would get wasted? Or do you keep it in your hand and use it when they tap there wasteland? If so what about manascrews? The deck has some games where it really needs to fight for its mana. Does the inclusion of volcanics change mulling, certainly game 1 when you don't know what you're facing?
@David
Not being an idiot would also have helped against stompy.
That's true. Faerie Stompy doesn't run Wasteland. And you'll easily get the targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6er
I fit three rebuilds in the board because everybody and his dog's starting to play Chalice of the Void in either maindeck or sideboard, and I discovered I could board two of them into the maindeck against Goblins without compromising my ability to go off on a clear board. The concept is that by boarding in a small amount of Hydroblasts and Rebuilds, the deck has maindeck answers for both Chalice -and- Pillar. My boarding strategy assuming I was on the draw game two goes -4 Remand, -1 Flash of Insight, +3 Hydroblast, +2 Rebuild. On the play game 2 or 3 I like Remand a lot more, so I'm still working on my exact game plan for that. (Any advice?)
My board as it stands:
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze (I have 3 main, personal preference)
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Rebuild
3 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
I am not to sure about that statement. Affinity can more easily shrug off a pair of removal spells than it can replay its hand. Resetting Affinity back to turn 1 I think is more powerful than killing a Ravager and an Enforcer or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
I agree that Starstorm is probably the most questionable inclusion. Its effect is strong but can often be an expensive fog by the time you can generate the mana to clear the board. Getting double red isn't too hard but it often involves burning an untap effect. This does decrease the card advantage starstorm can generate.Quote:
I think I will be testing the new changes but on first sight I really doubt the usefullness of starstorm.
I think starstorm would be the only questionable thing about the board that I noticed, but then again I didn't really play against any of the decks this weekend where you'd want it. It seems like it will situationally just win you the game, but could that be better as a more versatile piece of removal/utility? I don't know what I'd replace it with, a single REB? Maybe the fourth twincast?
Oh, and I think this deck should be named Crimson Tide.
I like the idea of mixing up the build with different colors since it keeps people on their toes. I myself have been playing with green and hunting packs, but only just in recreational games. Urza's rage being uncounterable is nice, but have any of you really had a problem winning with the old build once you had 14 mana *and* a twincast available? I just assume it may have happened to me once since there have been those times where i meditated and twincasted into jank, but with 14 mana I can't think of it ever happening to me. With those sort of resources you can play through anything.
Wow... :eek: Seems like a bad idea.Quote:
The Goblin match is now 50/50 instead of the 60/40
Maybe we should be more careful with speaking about affinity in general terms. Like I mentioned a few pages earlier I tested against high speed affinty quite a few games and found out that the combination of free spells (ornithopter) and affinity for artifacts are two things that make it very easy for them to recover from a rebuild. I think the problem for me was that I had to play rebuild in their combat phase (facing lethal damage or fearing fling for lethal damage) and as such they lose very little time rebuilding their board. I am not sure if rack and ruin will be a sufficient answer but that's what testing is for.
Yeah, I agree. Once you've gotten to the point where you can cast Urza's Rage with kickback and Twincast it, it seems like a given that your opponent has long since run out of counterspells. It's cool and all, but I don't really see the point. Show me the light.Quote:
Originally Posted by barron
Well you are giving up about 10 points in that matchup to gain about 15 points in the gro matchup plus you gain some in other aggro-control matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by jodawe
I don't think the build actually loses a full 10 points in the matchup. However, the splash will worsen your Goblin matchup but I still think it is favorable preboard for Solidarity. Post board is hard to say depending on the various sideboards.
Will destroying two artifacts (either 2 creatures, or a creature and plating) make the attack non-lethal?Quote:
I think the problem for me was that I had to play rebuild in their combat phase (facing lethal damage or fearing fling for lethal damage) and as such they lose very little time rebuilding their board.
How about next turns attack? I don't believe that Rack and Ruin will buy you any additional time against Affinity that Rebuild doesn't already buy.
I don't like the idea of making an already losable matchup to the most common tier one deck in the format even worse, even if it slightly makes the thresh matchup better.
Anyway, I have been trying to work on a new SB to keep up with the new decks (epic), cards (extirpate), and sbs (chalices everywhere etc).
My deck is as it was before (deep6er list). I do think there can be some improvement to it, but I haven't discovered it yet. I plan on staying with the mono blue build and I refuse to give up on peek, especially after playing a modified fish deck that really surprised me by siding in extirpate. Pre SB it was just w/u, he's crafty. If I didn't peek at his hand I would have lost for sure since extirpate is a hard that you really have to play around.
I think that cutting 1 brainfreeze in the SB is optimal since I now no longer want to plan on multiple small freezes as a strategy. I find with bounce the mages just come back and with black having a brainfreeze in the graveyard prematurely (discard) is very hazardous. I plan on going for the long freezes and just have one in the sb to wish for, should it come up. Here is what I am thinking so far.
3 twincast: I really wish I could find room for one more in the MD
2 Snap: at least buys a turn against threshold and X/B decks, and since all
you really need to bounce against threshold is creatures this just seems
like a better card in the game than turnabout, well, -1 turnabout for sure
and -1 X
2 Hydroblast: gobbos
2 Echoing Truth: I don't like chain of vapor anymore since the most
common non-creature spells that I will bounce are stuff like chalice and
trinisphere (pillar dies to blast), chalice is almost always first set to one,
and at 3cc echoing truth is just superier. Also, it takes care of ETW
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
1 Rebuild
1 stroke of genius
1 ?
I haven't exactly figured out what to put in that slot, yet. I know it will be brushed off, but i am thinking of Tolarian winds, among other things like a second rebuild. The reason is because i would say most of my losses come to fizzling due to drawing jank and once i already cunning wished for the meditate there is no draw left (other than stroke, which can be cumbersome in saving your ass). The situation has just come up more than once when I have 6+ lands in my hand along with other spells that don't draw me cards. I have the feeling it will be the least card used, but I also think that it will save my ass on occasions draw 7+ for 5? sounds good to me.
No wonder you're worried about the Goblins matchup. Why do you only have 2 Hydroblasts? I play 3 and was playing 4 before the change. Also, Tolarian Winds is not terribly good. Yeah, there's the one or two instances where it totally blows your opponent away, but mostly it sits there being bad. Trust me, Winds has already been done and found to be unsatisfactory. I hate Freeze in the board. There are too many cards in the Wishboard that are situational (and mostly irreplaceable) that adding another one feels like a waste. Brain Freeze is a mostly dead card. I prefer 2 in the main, and that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by barron
Starstorm: This card is for Fish type decks. Game 2, you board in a bit of removal, and have Wish to blow their board away. Dark Confidant is frustrating, and using removal on him is not out of the question. However, it also has applications against Threshold and TES. Not to mention a variety of decks where having a second Echoing Truth type card is valuable.
Rack and Ruin: Feel free to change this to Rebuild. I think Rack and Ruin is better because the ability to destroy things will always buy you more time than bouncing them. I also believe that it's good against Stax, even though you lose your Volcanic, because the game goes long anyway, and you should have plenty of land out. Being forced to combo on 6 land isn't very different from 7.
Snap: This card sucks. Seriously. Ewokslayer and I both tested this card and found it to be unsatisfactory almost all the time.
@Barron: Out of curiosity, have you read every page of the Solidaity thread? I know it's a lot to ask, but a lot of your concerns have been addressed before (Snap, Chain of Vapor, Tolarian Winds) and discussed. I understand if you haven't, but giving me a bit of credit when I talk about changes seems like it might be nice. Trust me. Whenever I've made changes to the deck, I test extensively to see if it's worthwhile. I've tested just about every single relevant blue instant in order to find the most effective combination possible. I'm not saying that I'm the absolute authority on everything, just credit me with what I've said I've done. On another note, I also miss Peek, but it was the card that Think Twice mostly resembled in terms of applications and intentions.
@Volt: The Rage kill is there for style. Urza's Rage itself is primarily to kill Mage. The fact that it gives you an alternate win condition is just extra. It is by no means a primary win condition.
@Nitewolf9: The deck is called The Red Tide (or Red Tide for short) after the nautical phenomenon (Clive Cussler books are cool).
@Rebuild agaisnt Affinity: People, if Affinity is a concern in your metagame, by all means play it over Rack and Ruin. I'm not in the least bit worried about Affinity, and reserve Rack and Ruin for decks that I might possibly face, which is mainly Chalice Aggro type decks.
Yes I have read the thread in it's entirety, which is why i said my mentioning of tolarian winds would be brushed aside. I saw the earlier discussion on it. The brainfreeze is mostly in the SB because of extirpate. It's something I know I will be facing. I know snap isn't that great, which is why it's not MD. But against the gro type players I have played it has shown to be superior to E truth. It buys a turn and still alots mana for necessary draw spells. The other bounce don't do that and turnabout buys a turn, but is more of a gamble since it comes down to the one card draw.