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You should, cause they do statistically better AN flips than yours (1,18 vs 1,27 cmc per card if I counted right). But I don't want to get into the usual TES vs Fetchland Tendrils debate, I'm actually quite interested in Doomsday +AdN lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMaster
I know that they do (although I don't know wether you have taken into account my transformal sideboard or not).Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
I was comparing the AN flips with a "normal" ANT, which should be on more Lifepoints than TES or at least have a lower average cmc per card.
Just getting this straight.
I also think that running 4 CoB does mess up the reasoning af calculating the dmg per card ratio.
it's not that different from running 8 fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
That could be true never really payed attention to the dmg done by CoB and done by fetches. Good point
Has anyone mentioned gemstone mine? I can't recall.
I have been playing them instead of 4 flooded strands in my 4c ANT deck. They're quite good - especially when you don't hate cabal ritual as much as some of you guys.
It is really rare that you don't go off the turn you use the last counter on gemstone mine, and of course; you don't lose life for getting that mana of any color. For a long time I played a standard manabase of 8 blue fetches, 2 sea, 1 scrub, 1 tundra + 2-4 random lands (always including at least 2 basics). But when I figured you have to use krosan grip to eat through a cb-top metagame, I just couldn't reconfigure the manabase to be playable... I HATE drawing a tropical island when playing against red or something... Gemstone mine is great. Really it is. Of course it dies to wasteland. No fun. The mines are in instead of 4 fetchlands, and I know that makes me more vulnerable to waste, blood moon and the likes, but at least stifle isn't as tough anymore... And again: I don't use life to get mana...
- meanee
Gemstone Mine is strictly worse than any other land in DDay FT, since you play lots of setup spells and need permanent mana sources. Also shuffling your library with fetches is important and fetches feed Cabal Ritual even more reliably than Gemstone Mine does.
Fetchlands are the only way to go in FT, TES is a 5 color deck that runs 10-14 lands, usually not enough to play a whole bunch of fetches and duals so it plays gold lands.
@fredmaster: ..... ur an idiot, have u ever played TES??? After AdN u can reveal: 3 IT, 3-4 BW, 3 MT. It is ridiculously hard to fizzle on AdN so please don't comment on decks you don't play.
Please don't start another TES vs FT debate, its pointless and leads to nothing. These are the results in a nutshell: TES is faster and more explosive, FT is more consistent and better against blue.
appreciated...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
For the record:
I have tested TES several times.
I've Top8ed 2-3 times on local events with it.
This leads to the conclusion, that you Sir are the idiot.
I mean come on, no reason to flame here.
@FredMaster: fair enough. I have numerous top4s with TES as well. But you commented on a list that has nothing to do with the thread. That is all I wanted to say.
Back on topic, I took this list to a top 8 finish out of 26ish people and was really impressed:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Lotus Petal
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Pyroblast
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Chrome Mox
2x Doomsday
2x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
1x KGrip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Island
Sideboard
3x Xantid Swarm (MVP)
2x KGrip
2x Infernal Tutor (MVP 2)
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Slaughter Pact
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Grapeshot
1x Tempest of Light
1x Doomsday
Here is a very short tournament report on what happened:
Round 1 Goyf Sligh (kabal)
g1 - He starts out fast and I Infernal into IGG loop on turn 4.
g2 - He gets stuck on 1 land and I have ample time to setup the Doomsday kill (turn 5).
Round 2 Goyf Sligh (Thor)
g1 - He mulls to 6 and I mull to 4. My opening hand is fetch, Island, Cabal Ritual, Mystical. I rip 2 LEDs off the top and a Chrome Mox. EOT I Mystical for Infernal and IGG into the win!
g2 - He gets a double Fireblast draw and I mulled to 6 and kept a slower Top hand.
g3 - He gets a slower draw and I have enough time to setup the IGG loop.
Round 3 4C CB Thresh
g1 - I mull to 6 and get rocked. He lands turn 2 CB and I don't draw anything relevant.
g2 - Turn 1 Swarm .... I have a disgusting amount of time to setup Doomsday and he has no answer for Swarm and I MT for a Grip to remove CB at some point and combo off shortly after.
g3 - I am put on a somewhat quick Goyf clock and my Swarm is sent farming. On the turn before I die I have enough mana to shuffle my 2 Tops around (thank you threshed Cabal Ritual) for a storm count of 8 + Tendrils after he Forced and fetched 3 times!
Round 4: Draw
Round 5: Draw
Round 6 3c Thresh with CB and Snare
g1 - I keep a subpar 6 card hand with Blast in it. I blast his turn 2 CB and he forces .... Top joins his team next turn and Goyf + Jitte beats me.
g2 - He has no idea what I am playing and sides wrong ..... turn 1 Swarm goes all the way and I win on turn 6 or 7 with Doomsday.
g3 - He gets a really fast draw. I am put on a short clock and don't have enough protection spells to go off but I try anyway since I am dead next turn. MT gets Meditate and I try to resolve Doomsday with just 1x blast in hand and he tried to counter my Dark Ritual .... I blast and he forces again, he has 4 cards in hand and double Force .... bad times. I actually could have won through double Force if I had a Top in play ... but I didn't. Just no way to draw into the Doomsday pile to achieve the desired storm.
A few comments ... I LOVE THIS DECK!!! Ad Nauseam was useless in just about everyway. I wish I had been playing 3x DD and 3x IT, something to consider. I really like the list but I hate Ad Nauseam. It was sided out every game. The deck feels like it needs 2-3 Ponder and maybe an additional protection spell. I loved the ITs maindeck, so many free wins! But always sided them out against blue. Xantid Swarm is amazing! This card wins a LOT of game 2s, then my opponent's side back in their StPs and I side out 1x Swarm and put something more relevant in! Overall I was impressed with how well the deck played. I don't think Ad Nauseam is needed and the 2x Chrome Mox in there to assist AdN ... fail, I was hating the damn Moxes all day.
If you end up cutting Ad Nauseam and those awful moxen (see, I warned everyone about this card, or at least I've ranted about it being bad a lot) you end up with the space you're talking about. Incidentally, that also brings the list pretty close to where I was exactly 1 year ago. DDFT evolved by cutting Street Wraiths from the current FT list (which is almost exactly ANT -SW, +Ad Nauseam/additional protection) for Sensei's Divining Tops (leaving it with Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT and playing 1-2 Doomsday as an alternate route when Infernal Tutor wasn't good. I eventually figured out that Doomsday usually costs less mana and fewer cards than IT which is why the Doomsday count was upped. However, there is no reason you couldn't run something like 3 Infernal Tutor, 3 Doomsday in a list to have access to both. Breathweapon and I have both tested configurations like this in the past to good result (although I believe we both went even more extreme with 4 IT and 4 Doomsday while trimming down to 4 Chant with Xantid Swarms or ETW out of the sb).
This also brings up an interesting scenario in which Lim-Dul's Vault becomes insane ago. LDV is really skill-intensive, but combined with SDT and especially Brainstorm (which doesn't even have to be in your hand, just near the cards you want to grab with LDV) it's essentially a 1 card combo that can find you 2+ cards from different categories (Protection, Acceleration, Bombs). EOT a Vault to untap with Brainstorm on top/in hand or a SDT in play lets you grab both an acceleration and an infernal tutor which has a tendency to end games fast.
I find myself going of with ant alot more often just because I do not know the possibilities of doomsday. Something that is really bad. What current list are you running now emidln? And where can I find some more information about the doomsday piles. The link on stormboards does not seem to be working.
I play whatever I feel is metagame appropriate for the event I'm going into. That's some arrangement of 75 cards out of a binder that includes about 130 cards. The last list I played in an event looked like this:
4 Doomsday
3 Orim's Chant
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Lotus Petal
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain
I had Infernal Tutors, Lotus Petals, and Cabal Rits in the sb.
The event before that I played a list that looked like this
1 Doomsday
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 1 Tundra
SB: 1 Scrubland
SB: 1 Helm of Awakening
SB: 1 Grapeshot
the time before that I ran a CB deck that boarded into Doomsday combo. I play what I think is good at the time, which is what everyone should do. Tendrils lists shouldn't be static because playing a predictable linear combo deck will lose you matches.
I played 74/75 emidln's GP list to a 3-1-1 finish this saturday. The draw was all my fault as I punted twice game 1 against MUC and took too long to scoop, being left with not enough time to combo out in an easy situation on game 3.
The loss was against a teammate playing UGw thresh who managed to plow one of his three goyfs for 4 life (and not breaking a single fetch) in response to my casting tendrils for 22.
Doomsday is a blast, and I believe I will go back to ANless lists, as I didnt see the need for it while I sure lacked the stability of slower lists. I lost more than one game due to not having enough black mana to DD while my oponents countered my rituals.
I won against random aggro, mainly through IGGy loops. In one game, I only managed to pull it off because the guy had played a Ravnica dual. This is pushing me to play 1x IGG in the sideboard next time.
I have not cast Ad Nauseam a single time all day long.
I took DDFT to my local tournament last night and went 3-1-1 and ended up taking 9th. Here is the list I played followed by a short report:
4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Pyroblast
3x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Doomsday
2x Ponder
1x Tendrils
1x KGrip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Island
Sideboard
2x Red Blast
2x KGrip
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Doomsday
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Grapeshot
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Chain of Vapor
Round 1 - Astral Slide Elves .....
g1: Turn 4 Meditate ... turn 6 IGG Loop ... its really sad.
g2: Turn 4 IGG Loop
Round 2 - Eva Green (ChokeSeemsGood)
g1: Turn 2 Hymn wrecks me taking IT and Dark Ritual and I top deck lands. Before things get bad I decide to go for this win with a threshed Cabal Ritual, Ponder and Meditate, Ponder reveals garbage and I Meditate into IT with and LED in play ... pretty good, IGG loop again.
g2: I mull to 6 and open up: DD, DD, Dark Ritual, Island, LED, Underground Sea. He plays first turn Hippie go. I play Ritual Doomsday go and make the pile: Top, Top, Helm Grapeshot, Top. I kill him with infinite storm on turn 3!
Round 3 - UGw Thresh w/ CB
g1: He gets a disgustingly fast draw and all I seem to draw is more Brainstorms and shit. Blast kill CB on turn 2 then I lost on turns 6-7 to double Goyf and double Pridemage .... with FoW backup.
g2: I had the win but fucked up the pile because I was fearing he had another counter so I tried to play around it and it just wasn't possible. He had another fast draw of turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Pridemage, turn 4 Teeg, turn 5 Goyf. I could have won through Teeg and Pridemage but he had 3 cards in hand and I was fearing FoW. I had Brainstorm, Blast, and KGrip in hand and 2 Tops in play and BBUU floating after DD, the proper pile was this: Top, LED, Helm, Grapeshot, irrelevant card. This would have won through Teeg and a Pridemage in play but ... I didn't see it as I was so focused on how to play through the counter I thought he had in hand. Oh well, probably the most difficult situation I have ever seen.
Round 4 - Enchantress
g1: Turn 3 Chant him and EOT Mystical into IT for the win!
g2: I forgot to count the second time I played Top into the storm count and only realized this after we were shuffling for the third game, after DD I had storm 4 and the pile was: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Chain of Vapor, Tendrils. So I ended up with storm count 8 + Tendrils, I missed the fucking Top replay added to storm count ... fucking hell.
g3: This is my opening hand: LED, LED, Petal, Dark Ritual, IT, Chant, Krosan Grip!!!! I love combo.
Round 5 - Zoo
ID
Before drawing we see that one of us will not be making it into the top 8 but neither of us really care. I take the Huttman place, 9th. I was honestly ready to leave. My brain was fucking fried and I had been outside painting our hottub cover for 3 fucking hours in the 90 degree heat! I was honestly relieved to be able to leave as I was just tired of Magic and ready to go get dinner at fucking midnight. I blame my few mistakes on a long fucking day and the fact I have not run Doomsday very much. As far as the list goes, I LOVE it. Very satisfied and I would not change a thing. I think this combo deck will be a DTB with the release of Silence as that is the card I was wishing was in the SB. I would love to play 6-8 Chants and 4 blasts and 3 KGrip, that just sounds damn good! But overall I had a lot of fun playing the deck and playing DD I feel very confident in the blue matchups, much more so than I do with any other combo deck!
I played emidln's GP list to a 6-1 finish on Sunday. The field was very weak, so there is not too much merit in it. Nevertheless, I won through 5 Seizes/Duresses and through 4 counterspells in the same turn.
My loss was to goblins, in game 1 revealing not a single tutor in 16 cards and going to 4 life with Chant but no white for kicker while he had Lack and Ringleader on board. I lost to vialed-in Fanatic. The fourth card down was a Mystical which would have made it.
At game 2, he goes Duress, Lackey, Earwig Squad while I was stuck at Island plus Top.
I made top4 and won the tournament anyway, facing MBC, 2x Belcher, 2x Stasis, RB Goblins and BGW Rock.
I guess AN is getting the axe once M10 kills " Upkeep, crack LED. Win."
That' s not awsome to maindeck 1x Awakening Helm to provide infite SDT combo and a more consistent DD end up? I' ve notice that someone play it on sideboard, but as a 1 off it will probably be the most interesting way to shut the game up at insane speed.
Helm piles are slower (they take more mana or require passing the turn) compared to the piles that are already available in the maindeck. Helm is provided as part of a solution with Brain Freeze or Grapeshot to bypass cards like Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and Runed Halo without slowing down too much.
I was wondering which is the best protection package for this deck. Emidln, which are the factors that induce you to opt for Chants or Duresses or Pyroblast, apart (obv) from the metagame? I mean, if you'd expect a varied metagame (where blue has a good percentage, but it's not all about that, CB isn't the most played deck and there are also some Stompy decks), what you'd run ? i'm a little prevented from Pyroblast because it's essentially a dead card against everything non-blue, althou' it's awesome to protect Chant. Sometimes playing a 4-4 of both, i open with 2 Pyroblasts, and against , say, Goblins, it would be like playing with 5 cards.
Ah, i'm playing a 4 color version ( without green). I'd like to stick with Doomsday for a bit, but really fear fast combo is just >>> against aggro decks. How can this be managed ? Increasing the speed engines of the deck by putting 3 petals , 2-3 rituals and 3 tutors for a (quite fast) IGG loop should be enough?
It depends largely on what storm engine I'm planning on looking for first. With Ad Nauseam, Duress alone is more acceptable as it's likely that if I can just push it through, I can ignore Stifle effects by drawing more Duresses. It's slightly harder to do that with Doomsday due to space issues or mana issues. It's nearly impossible if you're trying to win with IGG. Against things without CB, Chant is the best protection period. The Time Walk effect is more useful for me than Duress (Duress often runs into the Mana Drain problem where your opp has two hate cards turn 1 and no matter what you take, they still keep a hate card) when trying to set up vs aggro as they don't really do anything once I start to combo. Against Stifle decks, Chant is obviously superior by making most of my opponent's deck irrelevant. Pyroblast is only the best disruption against CB decks, although it's decent against Landstill and fish/fae decks with Spellstutter Sprite (why this card hasn't caught on yet, I've yet to figure out, but watch out when it does). Thoughtseize is only really strong against aggro, although it's passable elsewhere (though generally worse than Duress due to lifeloss since aggro decks are the only things packing Teeg/Canonist where you wouldn't already have Helm/KGrip/Pyroblast boarded in).
When I'm running just Doomsday/IGG (no Infernals/Ad Nauseam/Burning Wish), Pyroblast/Chant seems like the mix that I want the most. When you're doing that you basically concede that you rarely combo out on turn 2 and instead want to be able to just barely pull of turn 3-4 vs aggro but to have insane game ones against blue-based control.
To be honest, the list that I play right now has 4 Duress, 3 Burning Wish (into Thoughtseize) and no other protection main (xantid swarm or chant out of the sb). It relies on a very heavy threat density and very high mana density along with Sensei's Top to be able to play through countermagic. I've been having a lot of fun and success with it in testing.
It's worth noting that if CB gets banned but SDT and LED remain, 7-8 chant Doomsday will almost certainly become the best deck in the format. You'll want to run 3 Doomsday, 2 Infernal Tutor with 7ish Chant (4 Silence, 3 Chant) main with maximal Dark Rit/LED and 1 Petal, 1 Rain of Filth, 2 Cabal Rit. It moves down to the turn 2-3 range for consistent kills, but without CB, there is nothing to stop you from just playing Chant effects to win. Your sketchy matchups become Chalice decks and Suicide. You deal with those by playing 4 Serenity, 3 Rushing River in the sb along with potentially siding 3 Lotus Petal, 1 Mox, 1 Ad Nauseam. Round out with additional basics (2 Island, 1 Plains maindeck, 1 Island, 1 Plains sb) and Helm+Grapeshot and you don't end up fearing very much.