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I run 19 lands and it's worked okey for me. But I do think I have to mulligan more than the rest of you so perhaps I switch in a 13th Island.
@Smog: You have never had the problems of having both Jitte and Kira in play at the same time? Or Kira in play and then drawing a Jitte?
I haven't, but then again, I haven't been piloting the deck very long. I don't think that their adverse interaction should keep you from boarding in both and playing around it if necessary. They make a huge difference in the matchups I mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by elof
But I encourage input from someone more experienced with the deck than I to step in for this one. As I said, I haven't been playing the deck long enough to provide a well founded basis for my opinion on the board.
That's mainly the reason why I wonderd, Kira and Jitte don't work well at all together, I myself havn't tried it but either paying 6 to play and equip with jitte or paying 4 and getting your creature toasted sounds like an awful plan. However, but Jitte and Kira does wonders alone, so perhaps it's worth it anyway?
So Forbiddian, you still don't have any input except "fix it" to add? We are still waiting for your solution.
I think it is grand that there have been so many offers to remove a card. Lemme see what I can do about that.
Here's my argument: 19 lands in a 60 card deck actually gives you a better shot at consistent draws than 20 lands in a 61 card deck. That's all I'm sayin'...Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I really am not trying to pick at you, Finn. There's enough of that bullshit going on without me throwing my hat in and criticizing you unfairly. But consider this: The fact that you have to argue against this point in non-mathematical terms should be enough to prove that it's not really a point that's mathematically arguable.
I've got a question regarding Jitte. Have any of you ever succesfully used it against an aggro deck(let's say goblins, zoo etc.)? How can U actually use it agains island-free decks(which are btw the MUs where you want to see it most I guess), that pack hordes of critters, without any kind of evasion?
Easy. Be willing to lose your creatures you swing with. Wake Thrasher will carry a Jitte with pride, but once Silvergill Adept's in play, do you really care if all he does is swing in with a Jitte to get the first two counters on? Once those counters are on, any Merfolk you swing with will be near invincible and generate more counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy
Also, at this point, it's worth noting that if you've got a Reejerey with a loaded Jitte on it, and you play a Merfolk after swinging in, the Reejerey will untap and be ready to block for more counters.
Jitte won't win the matches singlehandedly, but when combined with your other disruption spells? It'll do enough.
Um... read the card. Jitte triggers upon combat damage, not damage to a player. Vis a vis, you still get to put counters on Jitte even if they block the creature that's packing it... So, evasion is kind of irrelevant in most situations if you have a Jitte.Quote:
Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy
Maybe I'm missing the point that you're trying to make, but it doesn't seem that you're actually saying anything relevant here, no offense. :rolleyes:
What I would worry about, trying to use Jitte against Gobbos or Zoo, is that it might not be fast enough to make a difference... If I get it successfully attached to a creature in time to matter though, it will definitely help against both the match-ups you listed as examples...
Haha, U're right. Should've read the card;) My mistake. I've been out of play for a few years and never really got to play with/against jitte. Anyway I've been wondering why everyone seems to get so freakin' hot about this artifact :D Guess that might be the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
Lol, that would explain it. Sorry if I came off a little disgruntled there. Anyhow, notice that Jitte is not an auto-include in this deck anyhow. Most folks who do run it put it in the sideboard, and I think I may end up taking this route myself (been trying two in the main just for testing), although I sort of want to keep a singleton in the main-deck. It'd be a little ugly to run singletons, but most games if you top-decked it you'd be happy to see it, and as they say, it would make sideboarding easier:wink: ... Whereas I've been cross to see two in the same game:Quote:
Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy
...Anyhow, funny story: I was shuffling up my Merf deck and just practicing making mulligan decisions last night and gold-fishing a couple games just for fun, and I ended up getting two Jitte in my opening hand once, and drawing into a second Jitte within my first three turns another time... So that kinda made me decide to stop running two in the main-deck right there.:laugh:
Hmm, I'm not a huge fan of singletons myself. I hate my games getting random. On the other hand it might give the game a little thrill(you might pack a few other one-ofs if you really like surprises) ;D.
But seriously, U just said that often when you draw Jitte it is simply too late to even matter. Why won't you run more of them to increase the odds of seeing it early enough then?
I'm currently trying to get all the cards and simply can't wait to test the deck. It looks sooo good to me;) So, basically just wanted to know if Jitte is worth getting after all. I used to play Legacy Madness (often against Gobbos) and I know just how much having no removal might be pain in the butt.
Well, I wouldn't run more Jittes than two in the main, because it's legendary for one, and for another thing you need four mana open on the same turn (usually) for you to want to play it... Dropping Jitte without enough mana to equip same turn is usually a pretty shitty play, and indicative that you should have taken a mulligan rather than keeping your hand (since this usually means you have nothing better to play on your second or third turn than an unequipped Jitte... unsavory!).Quote:
Originally Posted by whosyourdaddy
As far as buying the cards for the deck, the only things that I'd say are absolute necessities that will set you back a lot of cash are Force of Will, Wasteland, and Mutavault (I'd prioritize them in that order also.) Granted, that's a fair amount of money just right there, but these cards are absolute fucking diesel. Not to sound like an elitist, but not having these cards really would cause this deck to fall flat on its face in a competitive Legacy tournament.
As far as Jitte, I happened to have some... If you're trying to keep your deck budget-conscious, I see no reason you should feel obligated to buy them. They're really more of a matter of personal preference in this deck, so don't feel obliged. However, it is definitely a phenomenal card, the best Equipment in existence, no contest... Even if you don't like it in this deck after testing, it's not like you're going to be like "Now what am I going to do with this damn Jitte? This card sux!" So if you're tempted by them and you don't mind adding to the price tag, I'd say go ahead. :wink:
EDIT: Perhaps some other folks with even more experience than I have in playing this deck would also like to weigh in on Jitte some more? I don't quite buy the argument that it's too slow to work, since this is after all not the quickest of Aggro decks to begin with... From what testing I've done with it so far, Jitte seems to actually fit into our curve fairly nicely for me... But I haven't tested as much as I'd like to yet, I wholeheartedly admit. And if I see two in the same game, that's about as far from a "pump the fist" reaction for me as I can imagine...
That's called debate. That's why we're here. I've made suggestions, I personally have a 60 card list, which I don't think is optimized (again, if I had an optimized deck, I wouldn't be here), but I think it's better/as good as the lists that I've seen, based on my style and my analysis of merit. Obviously I have a solution, and I've presented it, with valid alternatives, numerous times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I've discussed many cards, and even got a PM from you (on the basis of my discussion of cards earlier), begging that I stick around because I seemed to be knowledgeable enough to help others. Did you forget that? I've contributed a lot to the thread in the past, and plan to in the future.
But as for your overall point, although totally misguided on the details, I agree: It's a fucking crying shame that I have to stop giving good advice and stop having interesting discussions so I can prevent the OP from getting left behind circa 1994 understanding of mechanics of this card game.
Yay, some new discussion: I fucking love Jitte. I found room for it MD and have been running it for a while in my gauntlet version. Part of the reason why I questioned Kira so diligently. Not entirely that I think Kira is bad, but I'm wondering what I'm missing out on.
I find it should at least be in the sideboard. Jitte is quite strong is most of our troublesome matchups. It also allows your creatures to be pretty strong without lord backup.
Some hangups people have and responses:
Swords hurts bad enough, now you want to cut Kira AND give them the chance to get more tempo?
I usually try to cast Jitte mid-late game, and usually opponents use up their Swords by then, but it kinda sucks. One other mitigating factor is that you usually equip your shittiest guy. They choose between "tempo win" by Swordsing your Cursecatcher or losing and hitting your Lord of Atlantis. Usually killing the Lord is more important (since if you kill the CC, then I just equip Lord next turn and you have double the problem).
A better criticism, I think, is that you can get 2:1d when you draw multiple Jittes or you run out of guys and Jitte doesn't perform.
I don't have a counterargument to the first. Drawing two sucks, there's no way to get rid of it in this deck, so just suck up the -1 (or run a singleton if you have that much of a hangup). Doesn't happen too often, wins more games on the whole. But again, this is something to note that might make it worse than an alternative you were considering, so keep in mind if you want to run 3-4 Jittes that you will suck up a lot of -1 during a tournament.
To the second: This deck runs 21-26 creatures. The only way you'll run out of guys is if you overextended into a board sweeper (or got Moated or The Abyssed, where only Kira can save you, ironically enough). Back on topic, Jitte prevents you from having to overextend, since a guy with a Jitte can actually take the game home, so WoG, pyro, etc. is a lot less dangerous
The last valid criticism I can think of is that it doesn't fit the mana curve so well. It costs 2 and then 2, so spreading it out, it's always at least castable. It does cost a lot, though, and it doesn't even get an effect until basically a turn later.
There's an equipment that's much better (although technically it doesn't exist in this format), but I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.Quote:
However, it is definitely a phenomenal card, the best Equipment in existence, no contest...
Forbidden, you mention MD'ing Jitte and running 21-26 creatures.
Mind posting your list?
[QUOTE=Smog;323465]Forbidden, you mention MD'ing Jitte and running 21-26 creatures.[quote]
If my claim sounds fantastic, I count manlands as creatures. Or if you'd like, subtract 3-4 from each of those numbers.
People tend to look at their lists and not see cards that they want to cut and then assume that the decklist is really cramped. Merfolk is actually one of the looser decklists I've encountered recently. A lot of material is really second class or a metagame decision. Sure, there's a lot of justification behind those cards. Even in the roughest N&D sketches, there are 60 cards with some justification. Merfolk has some pretty smart people manning the helm, so the justification is better, but the biggest myth of this thread is that the deck is somehow cramped. A cramped deck is very hard to board and has nukes in the board, since anything less than a nuke wouldn't be worth it. This deck has like Misdirection in the board.
In the right meta, Merfolk might get tight (like if you want 2 relics AND 2 wipe away AND 4th daze AND 4th Vial AND 21 land). But if you look at the diversity of successful Merfolk decks (I know, BBFAFA, doesn't mean they're right), people only agree on about 40 of the cards.
Yes. Not just to be an asshole, but I just find it really strange someone is shocked enough (that I found 2 cards in the MD that I didn't like as much as Jitte) to ask me, metaphorically, "What's your Magic cock size?" (60 cards, btw, and it's the motion of the ocean not the size of the boat).Quote:
Mind posting your list?
Basically, I don't want to put my dog in this fight (other than to say that I have experience with the cards that I say I have experience with). If there's debate on card selection, everyone will go back to this post, dig out my list, and go, "You hypocrite." Or they'll say, "I don't listen to someone who runs X." Or, they'll somehow think that I have some personal attachment to certain cards and that's why I'm trying to garner their inclusion on a wider scale. Or the backward one, people think that because I don't run a card, I can't weigh in on why I don't run the card.
I probably shouldn't have even mentioned that I run Jitte in the main (I was primarily thinking that people would forever relegate Jitte to the board and just not consider it for MD material, but it's a fine-awesome MD choice if you expect you might be facing a lot of aggro... Jitte powers through Goblins like a chainsaw powers through a Build-A-Bear warehouse).
I wasn't shocked and in no way was I trying to challenge your decision... I was just curious to see someone elses take on the deck. It's still a newer deck in the format and standards still haven't been set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
But fair enough, it's your deck. Good luck.
Fun fact, I decieded last night to switch -1 Relic (going down to 2) for +1 Jitte (trying it out). This was before I read Forbiddians posts.
Regarding Jitte, I feel as I would like to try it out more, it is probebly better than the 3ed Relic since there seem to be more "creature decks" than "graveyard decks" in sweden atm. (However, somehow, the "graveyard decks" seems to be winning more than "creature decks", oh, I can't understand why... :P)
Having just 1 Jitte main (and 1 more in board) does give me the advantages that Forbiddian mentioned, but also the benefit of not risking to draw more than 1. The downside of course is that I will draw it more seldom against matchups where I want it but since I had none before it can't be all that much of a differance anyway.
However, I will consider it to have a CC of 4. Seldom will I try (if there are other options) to drop i early, forbiddians mention of it as a mid/late game card is the way I want to play it. By mid/late game, the number of removals your opponent has is limited and it will be easyier for a lone creature to push through. And regardless, any creature I have with a Jitte is a huge threat, makeing Cursecatchers more effectful in the late game (where they are usually dead).
Anyway, I will try it out and let you guys know how I feel about it...
Cool, if it worked for you keep trying it.
Personally with so little card draw that this deck has, I won't be running a singleton of anything (other than cards that effectively do the same thing as another. i.e. bounce) for fear of inconsistency. I agree it helps against several problem decks, but just running it as a one-of, you're unlikely to see it more than once in maybe three or four game ones. (Before you board in the presumed 2nd)
Yes, I agre. The bad news is however that I have 1 open slot that is still undecided, and I don't feel like adding Island, Mutavault, Daze, Wake Thrasher or the 3rd Relic/Truth. So yes, I can't count on drawing it consistenly but I will just have to hope that the times I draw it it is really good.
I've been considering doing some shifting and playing the 4th stifle for more mana denial tempo. Haven't decided one way or the other yet.