All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

There are several ways to do it, but the end result is the same. Hermit Druid taps, and the game ends. He was considered broken in a time before Narcomoebas and Dread Returns and things have only gone more in his favor since then. Hermit Druid, a few combo peices, and the rest of the deck is disruption and non-basic lands. He has pretty good synergy with Cabal Therapy.

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A few combo pieces =
3 Narco
1 Redcap
1 Dread Return
1 Mimeoplasm
1 Lord of Extinction
4 Hermit

That's 11 cards, 7 of which you basically never want in your hand. Hermit druid taps and you try to make the game end. It does work well with cabal therapy, but they can still just surgical your dread return in response to that cabal therapy.

The breakfast combo is SO easy to disrupt and he actually makes it easier to disrupt because of summoning sickness. With the current deck you combo as soon as the second guy hits.

All Hermit Druid does is take the breakfast combo from total trash to a good deck. It wouldn't even be a DtB. It would be good, but it would still lose to every piece of disruption ever conceived just like breakfast does now.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

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There are several ways to do it, but the end result is the same. Hermit Druid taps, and the game ends. He was considered broken in a time before Narcomoebas and Dread Returns and things have only gone more in his favor since then. Hermit Druid, a few combo peices, and the rest of the deck is disruption and non-basic lands. He has pretty good synergy with Cabal Therapy.

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Alternatively, he's in the sideboard in game 1, and then tries to steal game 2 or 3.

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Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher

I'd like to see that also. I am quite fed up with Control beeing 45-55% of the meta.

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but is it really? even still what percentage would you like to see it at? I think that number is fine considering that most combo decks I would consider as aggro. I don't really consider combo a pillar I personally think there are just two approaches: beatdown and control, and the combo decks fall into one of those camps. mostly beatdown.

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Originally Posted by kusumoto

A few combo pieces =
3 Narco
1 Redcap
1 Dread Return
1 Mimeoplasm
1 Lord of Extinction
4 Hermit

That's 11 cards, 7 of which you basically never want in your hand. Hermit druid taps and you try to make the game end. It does work well with cabal therapy, but they can still just surgical your dread return in response to that cabal therapy.

The breakfast combo is SO easy to disrupt and he actually makes it easier to disrupt because of summoning sickness. With the current deck you combo as soon as the second guy hits.

All Hermit Druid does is take the breakfast combo from total trash to a good deck. It wouldn't even be a DtB. It would be good, but it would still lose to every piece of disruption ever conceived just like breakfast does now.

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If you untap with hermit druid you draw your entire deck and win, how is that not broken? he goes in things other than breakfast as well, any graveyard based combo basically.

Concerning survival :

Absolutely, the card is not broken. Strong but not broken. It was played in several decks before its ban, decks that were not dtb.
They edited vengevine and the a new survival appeared. A very powerful deck. So powerful that the metagame has had to shift or else was outdated (like merfolk).
In Spain and France, check out for the results at that time, the deck was dominating, but just like is doing TT currently...
But let's presume the deck was still too strong. The problem is VV is the deck, we all agree on this don't we ? ('cause as I said other survival decks had been played for years).
They edited surgical extraction. THE answer to vengevine. Available to everyone. A card that is also good in many other MUs. Isn't it enough to deal with the deck ?

What's more, many other decks got pretty cards since then... Delver, faithless, past in flammes, thalia... I think that many DTB could actually beat the UG survival that lay thought to be to powerful.

Peace

frenchy

There's always the potential to board out those 11 cards and then you can completely transform in the post-board after your opponent boards in a bunch of graveyard hate that will be completely dead against you. It could even be a transformation post-board strategy after game 1 when your opponent doesn't expect it (and then I guess you could transform back in game 3 if you lost game 1 to dodge hate and make them play dead cards).

I do agree with you, but you'll probably agree with me on the fact that the natural order plan is a bit outdated in the current meta don't you ? (loooots of stifle/waste/burn to kill little dudes/spell pierce/daze/...)

I don't think it would transform into a Natural Order strategy. It really depends on the rest of the maindeck and the colors (UG being given). Likely it would transform either into aggro with some additional removal/countermagic or a more control oriented approach with a broader countersuite (especially good if you maindeck Jace), removal, and sweepers. Transformations are underplayed often but this one in particular has a mere 11 cards which means you still have 4 slots for another matchup (likely countermagic for combo).

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I don't think it would transform into a Natural Order strategy. It really depends on the rest of the maindeck and the colors (UG being given). Likely it would transform either into aggro with some additional removal/countermagic or a more control oriented approach with a broader countersuite (especially good if you maindeck Jace), removal, and sweepers. Transformations are underplayed often but this one in particular has a mere 11 cards which means you still have 4 slots for another matchup (likely countermagic for combo).

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Perhaps people here haven't played breakfast or are remembering it with some kind of illogical nostalgia.

The power of the deck is largely based on it's speed. You run a low land count with lots of tutoring, manipulation, and disruption. If you're doing silly things like maindecking Jace, you're going to need a bunch of lands (all nonbasics btw) that will slow you down. Being slow with things like Jace and GSZ increases your odds of drawing all those dead cards that you now need to get rid of to win. It also gives your opponent more time to disrupt you. Remember EVERYTHING disrupts you.

I'm open to hearing what non breakfast strategy could possibly benefit from the 2cc 1/1 summoning sick green guy.

Transformational boards aren't played much because they're bad.

Breakfast? I thought they were talking about Survival Vengevine... which could easily board into some Maverick-style deck with Survivals postboard...

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Breakfast? I thought they were talking about Survival Vengevine... which could easily board into some Maverick-style deck with Survivals postboard...

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No I was talking about Hermit Druid coming off the list not survival.

Survival is a whole different story.

survival can come off the banned list if they ban ooze combo.

vengvine survival is fair in today's meta.

I can see SotF staying banned and SnT being banned eventually due to the design limitations. This is a shame in SotF's case (even with vengevine it never dominated in Europe, and now we have Surgical) but I couldn't care less about SnT and its derpy decks.

I'd also like to see Black Vise, Earthcraft, Land tax and Mind Twist coming off. Cards like Mind's Desire are probably safe, but I don't think they'll even consider it. In fact, I somewhat wonder if they'll even unban much at all any time soon since they could have done it earlier if they wanted.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

WotC probably printed Grislebrand so they could have a good excuse to ban Show and Tell.

I think Show and Tell will eventually get banned due the nature of card though. Sooner or later.

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Griselbrand was a flavor fix. Until now, there weren't good demons in magic. There were niche demons that could do some serious damage, but there wasn't just "The Demon." Not one that inspired fear into the hearts of players. Griselbrand does that. Doesn't mean Griselbrand was a good idea (Not being able to stop that trigger from getting to the stack is bad for everything ever), but I see the flavor logic.

But it does seem like you're right about Show and Tell. It does fundamentally unfair things, and the more they print cards that were never meant to be hardcasted (Emrakul, Griselbrand, Progenitus, etc.), the more unfair Show and Tell gets. Non Show and Tell-type decks can't run these cards, and therefore can't hang with the unfairness of the spell.

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Originally Posted by menace13

Good to know that now it isn't Delvers and GSZeniths any longer.... :/

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The three aren't comparable in their power levels.

Now, don't get me wrong, Delver's pretty amazing, but he has drawbacks, and there's a billion ways to answer him. Red eats Delvers for breakfast. Anything can Gut Shot or Dismember him. White has tons of removal for him. As does Black. The point is, while he's efficient, he can be stopped. Quite easily. You also have to play him in a deck that can regularly flip him. I won't argue what the magic number is, but simply put, the less instants/sorceries you run, the less amazing he is.

Green Sun's Zenith is half of what Survival players got to be appeased with the banning of Survival (Fauna Shaman being the other half.) It's very versatile, very useful, but let's compare it to Show and Tell for a second: Show and Tell, for three mana, is going to win the game unless your opponent has a narrow answer set. Green Sun's Zenith, for that same three mana, isn't going to get you much better than a Qasali Pridemage or Scavenging Ooze. Now, obviously, you have to have the Show and Tell target in your hand and the opponent has to not have something equally horrifying, but this is still a huge discrepancy in potential power level.

Delver and GSZ are also answerable or beatable by every color in many feasible ways. With Show and Tell, this isn't the case. Green and White have very, very little to deal with it, and Red doesn't have much outside of REB/Pyro.

I wasn't positing a list for discussion. Literally no card on that list will come off. A few can, but none of them will.

The strength of Hermit Druid isn't in a deck like breakfast; why would you even think that? Instead, think of Stoneblade, except instead of a Batterskull they win the game.

Earthcraft makes Enchantress consistently win on turn 3, through multiple pieces of hate. I know this because I played in a tournament where you could choose a non-power 10 card to come off the banned list for your Legacy deck. Everyone thought storm would just win because of Yawg Will, but the me and the other three undefeated enchantress players who are now a couple dual lands richer would beg to differ.

The best Survival deck crushed every other deck in the format. It was as fast as storm, and as resilient as Maverick. Just because you didn't play against people with the correct list does not mean it was safe. Had they not banned it when they did you would have seen Hulk-Flash all over again. Survival is fundamentally broken, and will only become more so as more cards are added. Stop lying to yourself and just admit you miss playing in an environment with Survival.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

I wasn't positing a list for discussion. Literally no card on that list will come off. A few can, but none of them will.

The strength of Hermit Druid isn't in a deck like breakfast; why would you even think that? Instead, think of Stoneblade, except instead of a Batterskull they win the game.

Earthcraft makes Enchantress consistently win on turn 3, through multiple pieces of hate. I know this because I played in a tournament where you could choose a non-power 10 card to come off the banned list for your Legacy deck. Everyone thought storm would just win because of Yawg Will, but the me and the other three undefeated enchantress players who are now a couple dual lands richer would beg to differ.

The best Survival deck crushed every other deck in the format. It was as fast as storm, and as resilient as Maverick. Just because you didn't play against people with the correct list does not mean it was safe. Had they not banned it when they did you would have seen Hulk-Flash all over again. Survival is fundamentally broken, and will only become more so as more cards are added. Stop lying to yourself and just admit you miss playing in an environment with Survival.

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What are you even talking about with hermit? You dont just magically win when your library goes to your graveyard. How are you winning exactly? What is with people thinking druid just magically wins the game without even beginning to consider what you have to do with a deck to make that happen?

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

The three aren't comparable in their power levels.

Now, don't get me wrong, Delver's pretty amazing, but he has drawbacks, and there's a billion ways to answer him. Red eats Delvers for breakfast. Anything can Gut Shot or Dismember him. White has tons of removal for him. As does Black. The point is, while he's efficient, he can be stopped. Quite easily. You also have to play him in a deck that can regularly flip him. I won't argue what the magic number is, but simply put, the less instants/sorceries you run, the less amazing he is.

Green Sun's Zenith is half of what Survival players got to be appeased with the banning of Survival (Fauna Shaman being the other half.) It's very versatile, very useful, but let's compare it to Show and Tell for a second: Show and Tell, for three mana, is going to win the game unless your opponent has a narrow answer set. Green Sun's Zenith, for that same three mana, isn't going to get you much better than a Qasali Pridemage or Scavenging Ooze. Now, obviously, you have to have the Show and Tell target in your hand and the opponent has to not have something equally horrifying, but this is still a huge discrepancy in potential power level.

Delver and GSZ are also answerable or beatable by every color in many feasible ways. With Show and Tell, this isn't the case. Green and White have very, very little to deal with it, and Red doesn't have much outside of REB/Pyro.

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Concerned with a card that doesn't show up anywhere near the amount of the other decks?
The 3 different SnT decks compared to 8 of the same Delver and Maverick decks in every top 16. They are the for the most part still the top 2 decks to beat.
Delver is the best 1 drop of all time. It beats Nacatl. In a tempo deck it plays extremely well with Daze and Wasteland(doesnt have land limits like Nacatl), it flys, it's blue, and it shows up everywhere at the top.

Grisslebrand improved Sneak Show and may give rise to Next Level Reanimator decks, but there isn't really any good reasons statistically to begin the ban SnT Thread. I am more concerned with RUG and Maverick swallowing half the prize spots.

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Originally Posted by kusumoto

No I was talking about Hermit Druid coming off the list not survival.

Survival is a whole different story.

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I was working on a deck with Hermit Druid right before 1.5 turned into Legacy and it got banned. You have to run 4 Druids and around 7-8 other cards to make the combo, maybe 18 lands which is around 30 cards. Then I'd run Tutors or some mix of Tutors and Brainstorm (depends what color I'd go with), and the entire rest of the list would be protection, so 20-26 protection spells and you only need to keep a 1/1 on the board for a turn to win most of the time.

I think anybody worried about druid should make a list and test it aginst top decks. I think you will be surprised.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

I was working on a deck with Hermit Druid right before 1.5 turned into Legacy and it got banned. You have to run 4 Druids and around 7-8 other cards to make the combo, maybe 18 lands which is around 30 cards. Then I'd run Tutors or some mix of Tutors and Brainstorm (depends what color I'd go with), and the entire rest of the list would be protection, so 20-26 protection spells and you only need to keep a 1/1 on the board for a turn to win most of the time.

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The speed of Hermit is faster than Breakfast since the requirements are a single card. Doesn't need to waste slots with Shuko, Vial or Nomads freeing up more space for disruption. Has a billion direct tutors(Worldly, GSZ). Elvish Spirit Guide maybe Petals for accel lowering land count to under 18. The deck is good. It is really good. is it the best deck ever? No. But it isn't something to take lightly. It will win a lot.

I will stand with what I said, if you ban ooze combo survival is fair. Remember before vengevine and ooze combo. Did survival even make it to top 32? Is survival vengvine really that broken.

Regardless if you ban Ooze, Survival Vengevine is still fair by todays standards. The power level of this format continues to grow larger with each set they print. The reason why Surivival Vengevine is fair right now is the same reason why Survival continues to get more powerful. Power creep on creatures is getting nutty, and having a multiple-use tutor is really strong. Sure, there are answers to Vengevine itself right now, but Knight of the Reliquary is a pretty good backup plan.

Basically, think of it like this. Maverick continues to dominate Top 8's. It's a G/W Aggro deck. Imagine cutting some chaff and fitting in 4 Survival, 4 Vengevine, 1 Basking Rootwalla, 1 Memnite, 1 Squee. If you're in blue, 1 Wonder. Now you have the Survival/Vengevine plan that is going to beat unprepared opponent's, or you can just as easily Survival up a Squee and drop a Knight of the Reliquary every turn if they decide to Surgically Extract your Vengevines. Or, you know, Loyal Retainers into Elesh Norn or "insert scary monster here" if you'd prefer.

I'm on the fence on whether or not I think it can be safely unbanned, not because of the power level of Vengevine, but because of the power level of every new set they print that can easily break Survival wide open. That, and it makes Maverick that much stronger.

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Originally Posted by kusumoto

A few combo pieces =
3 Narco
1 Redcap
1 Dread Return
1 Mimeoplasm
1 Lord of Extinction
4 Hermit

That's 11 cards, 7 of which you basically never want in your hand. Hermit druid taps and you try to make the game end. It does work well with cabal therapy, but they can still just surgical your dread return in response to that cabal therapy.

The breakfast combo is SO easy to disrupt and he actually makes it easier to disrupt because of summoning sickness. With the current deck you combo as soon as the second guy hits.

All Hermit Druid does is take the breakfast combo from total trash to a good deck. It wouldn't even be a DtB. It would be good, but it would still lose to every piece of disruption ever conceived just like breakfast does now.

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The deck only works with 4 brainstorm ... same with Show and Tell ...

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

I will stand with what I said, if you ban ooze combo survival is fair. Remember before vengevine and ooze combo. Did survival even make it to top 32? Is survival vengvine really that broken.

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Nobody even tried to hate it out. It was banned pre GSZ, pre surgical extraction, pre grafdiggers cage. Survival was a SCG internet crying ban. Look back at those top 8s people werent running Spell Snare or Needle, or Disenchant. SotF burns a turn and 4 spots. GSZ puts a man right into play ... and recycles. SotF is just slow and requires a heavy green commitment.

If you are keeping ubiquitous haymakers like Brainstorm around, unban some non ubiquitous stuff.

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Originally Posted by kusumoto

I think anybody worried about druid should make a list and test it aginst top decks. I think you will be surprised.

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It's a one card combo that costs 2. You need to play one card and keep it in play one turn. What good could possibly come from ever unbanning something like that.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Regardless if you ban Ooze, Survival Vengevine is still fair by todays standards. The power level of this format continues to grow larger with each set they print. The reason why Surivival Vengevine is fair right now is the same reason why Survival continues to get more powerful. Power creep on creatures is getting nutty, and having a multiple-use tutor is really strong. Sure, there are answers to Vengevine itself right now, but Knight of the Reliquary is a pretty good backup plan.

Basically, think of it like this. Maverick continues to dominate Top 8's. It's a G/W Aggro deck. Imagine cutting some chaff and fitting in 4 Survival, 4 Vengevine, 1 Basking Rootwalla, 1 Memnite, 1 Squee. If you're in blue, 1 Wonder. Now you have the Survival/Vengevine plan that is going to beat unprepared opponent's, or you can just as easily Survival up a Squee and drop a Knight of the Reliquary every turn if they decide to Surgically Extract your Vengevines. Or, you know, Loyal Retainers into Elesh Norn or "insert scary monster here" if you'd prefer.

I'm on the fence on whether or not I think it can be safely unbanned, not because of the power level of Vengevine, but because of the power level of every new set they print that can easily break Survival wide open. That, and it makes Maverick that much stronger.

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Pretty much the same thing I said about Hermit Druid applies to Survival if Vengevine is legal, except it's a heavier mana investment but a better plan b. It's one card and if it stays in play for a turn the game is usually going to end very quickly. I wish they would just ban Vine and unban Survival. We tried Vine, we gave it time, and it was too strong for us dumbass non-French Americans (or Storm is just a way worse choice to foil Survival when the American meta is far more hostile to combo, see the 20% of kids still playing Merfolk like nothing was happening). Without Vine, Survival is a great card I'd like to have back.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Nobody even tried to hate it out. It was banned pre GSZ, pre surgical extraction, pre grafdiggers cage. Survival was a SCG internet crying ban. Look back at those top 8s people werent running Spell Snare or Needle, or Disenchant. SotF burns a turn and 4 spots. GSZ puts a man right into play ... and recycles. SotF is just slow and requires a heavy green commitment.

If you are keeping ubiquitous haymakers like Brainstorm around, unban some non ubiquitous stuff.

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People ran Spell Snares, they just weren't making it to the top 8. It's not like if you countered Survival once the deck just rolled over.

Actually it didn't roll over at all, it waited until next turn, dropped a Mongrel, discarded Vine anyways, and aggro'd you down. It was a very very nasty deck, very fast, with disruption. I do believe decks are stronger now than they were, but at the same time, it might just be too stifling to the current meta. See Loyal Retainers into (insert good legend here). Grissy scares me more than Elesh does honestly. That is the problem with tutors. They scale with what they can get. And creatures have gotten VERY powerful. That makes Survival extremely dangerous.

It would appear that Delver is still the elephant in the room. I mean, it's just a guy, right? But it is still wrecking every tournament, and the decks that are supposed to beat up on blue decks aren't doing their job. It has consistently adapted to all the hate that people can throw at it and has been putting up dominant numbers on a global scale for the past couple of months. People adapted to Maverick pretty handily, but Delver seems to be a different kind of beast all together.

So I guess the question is... how far should people have to go to adapt to a threat like that? Eight sideboard slots? Maindeck Corrosive Gale? How warping does a single card have to be to draw the ire of the DCI? I guess an alternative is just wait for some new, insane power creep dude to outclass it and hope it can't be played in the same deck? Is it time to consider banning a guy that does nothing but beat face or is the very thought offensive to the essence of Legacy?

I'm not saying anything needs to happen just yet, but I mean hell they banned Wild Nacatl in Modern because it was too efficient, so clearly creatures are not off-limits to them, and they said they figured Delver was fine because Legacy could probably adapt to it... but it hasn't. So what now? Let's say Delver dominates the GP as well. What then?

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Originally Posted by edgarps22

Actually it didn't roll over at all, it waited until next turn, dropped a Mongrel, discarded Vine anyways, and aggro'd you down. It was a very very nasty deck, very fast, with disruption. I do believe decks are stronger now than they were, but at the same time, it might just be too stifling to the current meta. See Loyal Retainers into (insert good legend here). Grissy scares me more than Elesh does honestly. That is the problem with tutors. They scale with what they can get. And creatures have gotten VERY powerful. That makes Survival extremely dangerous.

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By the time you land it through counters, not have it blown up, cycle through your men with enough green mana you are already dead from a Delver that always flips courtesy of Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Let's say Delver dominates the GP as well. What then?

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Unban stuff.

Delver is winning and placing in freaking Vintage tournaments ... that's how good he is.

Should unban mental misstep so every deck has an answer to delver:wink:

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Originally Posted by rxavage

Should unban mental misstep so every deck has an answer to delver:wink:

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Mistep is the definition of a miserable ubiquitous card ... like a Brainstorm for every color.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Unban stuff.

Delver is winning and placing in freaking Vintage tournaments ... that's how good he is.

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So is trygon predator/loadstone golem/ steel sabotage/bloodbraid. Your argument is invalid

I don't like Delver having been printed bla bla but really? It dies to any removal ever and right now is only playable in RUG with 25+ instants/sorceries. Play a deck which beats RUG or or something...

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Originally Posted by trivial_matters

I don't like Delver having been printed bla bla but really? It dies to any removal ever and right now is only playable in RUG with 25+ instants/sorceries. Play a deck which beats RUG or or something...

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That's not how it works. If only everything was that simple.

Finding a deck that beats the best deck and does not lose to the rest of the field is a lot harder than just simply saying "Play a deck which beats it"

Fact is RUG has very few bad match ups and can randomly beat anything when it draws nuts and has been at the top for months.

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Originally Posted by majikal

It would appear that Delver is still the elephant in the room. I mean, it's just a guy, right? But it is still wrecking every tournament, and the decks that are supposed to beat up on blue decks aren't doing their job. It has consistently adapted to all the hate that people can throw at it and has been putting up dominant numbers on a global scale for the past couple of months. People adapted to Maverick pretty handily, but Delver seems to be a different kind of beast all together.

So I guess the question is... how far should people have to go to adapt to a threat like that? Eight sideboard slots? Maindeck Corrosive Gale? How warping does a single card have to be to draw the ire of the DCI? I guess an alternative is just wait for some new, insane power creep dude to outclass it and hope it can't be played in the same deck? Is it time to consider banning a guy that does nothing but beat face or is the very thought offensive to the essence of Legacy?

I'm not saying anything needs to happen just yet, but I mean hell they banned Wild Nacatl in Modern because it was too efficient, so clearly creatures are not off-limits to them, and they said they figured Delver was fine because Legacy could probably adapt to it... but it hasn't. So what now? Let's say Delver dominates the GP as well. What then?

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I feel Maverick is still favorable over Delver. The main problem for Maverick recently is everyone's decided to break out the Show and Tell decks again, and it's pretty dead to them. RUG has game against Show and Tell decks and slightly unfavorable matchups vs. Maverick while Maverick has slightly favorable matchups vs. RUG and a terrible matchup vs. Show and Tell. The more people ditch Mav for RuG/BUG/even Merfolk (but still bleh) or start metagaming for the Show/Tell Matchup the worse deck choice that becomes and the meta will shift again.

I don't think the current Show and Tell decks are the end of the world, but if anything does end up breaking S&T it has to be Griselbrand. I know I say this every time we get a new battleship, but I seriously don't see any creature in the near future making S&T any better than it currently is. Still way too early for "ban S/T" which I thankfully am seeing very little of so far.

Recap: Right now I think it's Show and Tell more than Delver keeping Maverick down, but still to early to panic about any S/T banning (don't forget last time this happened and it passed as quickly as it came).

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

By the time you land it through counters, not have it blown up, cycle through your men with enough green mana you are already dead from a Delver that always flips courtesy of Brainstorm.

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The trick is Survival Vine is MUCH faster than Delver. And the margin is not even close. A flipped Delver will kill you eventually, an active Survival for a single turn might just end the game that turn or the next, due to how big and fast Vines are. Delver is a tempo deck that has to make some headway and fast before its opponent gets bigger. And Survival Vine gets a lot bigger MUCH faster, even without Survival, with just a Mongrel and the right hand, which they run Intuition to help set that up, it gets very dangerous very quickly. That is just the aggro plan, much less the combo plans. You forget this deck also has free counters and can play the tempo game as well, it just has a MUCH faster clock and bigger threats, that can fly with a Wonder in the yard, so your evasion is meaningless. Delver is good, but not nearly as powerful as Survival Vine was.

Everyone who is claiming Survival wasn't that bad is ignoring half the deck. Survival's plans were as follows:

1. Resolve Survival, killing you with Necrotic Ooze the next turn, typically on 3.
2. Resolve Survival, make a bunch of Vengevines, kill you.
3. Grind you out by recycling Vengevines until you can setup plan 1 or 2.

And all of this has to be done through Force of Will, Daze, and Cabal Therapy.

I find it intersting that people are complaining about Show and Tell, despite the fact that Survival does the same thing for less mana.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Delver is winning and placing in freaking Vintage tournaments ... that's how good he is.

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Which Vintage tournaments? I'm having trouble finding examples.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Which Vintage tournaments? I'm having trouble finding examples.

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http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=on