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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UB Control
Hi,
I am a new Hungarian Legacy player. I started to play this format in January. Before that I played 6 month of EDH (1v1 commander) and 1,5 years of Standard. I prefere to play control.
Until now I played Spiral Tide which is a relative cheap combo deck with control back up.
I would like to try the UW Miracle archetype, because I feel that it is a tier 1 deck in this format.
In Budapest there is one Legacy FNM in a month, usually there are about 20 participants.
I feel that you can learn little by little how to properly the deck just by constantly facing good players and testing intensively with them. You may also keep Cockatrice matches on check since you can find there some good matches from whom you can better understand the logic beneath certain plays with Miracle. At that point, the danger of slow playing will pretty much be non-existant too.
(And you can remember all the games and discussion had with a certain Italian there in Budapest at Sarkanytuz :wink:)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
'Nilla Pac
The big problem is balancing removal with counter magic. This is a problem for control decks in general, but it is more so for a deck trying to cram Terminus, Swords, and Punishing Fire in a deck. It's tough to have all that in there and not hurt your game against combo decks where you would like to side all that stuff out. There also aren't too many sideboard cards that are good against both Storm decks and Show and Tell decks, so this stretches the deck a little thin as well if you want to have a good game plan against both. Envelop seems good and also hits a lot of cards in Shardless BUG as well. I'll have to try it out again against the gauntlet and see. Flusterstorm is alright, but I've been underwhelmed by it at times.
I agree with some of your stuff mentioned, but what you mentioned is meant for Miracle in general, regardless you run PFire or not.
A big problem is the time-limit-draw and PFire can serve as extra win condition. Miracle is known for taking so much time and unable to put on any clocks. With his list, it's possible to win with a Clique and PFire combo.
If you compare PFire list vs Rip-Helm list, you pretty much take out the clunky enchantments for PFire and swap out E-Tutor for more Clique, hence your match-up against combo is about the same. It's perfect for meta that likes to run 1/1 and 1/2.
To me Flusterstorm is somewhat geared toward Show and Tell variants. It might appear narrow, but it's very effective against that card and that card is just too popular, you can't afford to ignore it, it's better than Pyro/REB for this purpose.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
'Nilla Pac
It's tough to have all that in there and not hurt your game against combo decks where you would like to side all that stuff out. There also aren't too many sideboard cards that are good against both Storm decks and Show and Tell decks, so this stretches the deck a little thin as well if you want to have a good game plan against both.
Canonist and Clique are amazing against both. Venser is obviously great against Show and Tell, and is absolutely hilarious against a "hellbent" Infernal Tutor if you can make it to 4 mana.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
'Nilla Pac
There also aren't too many sideboard cards that are good against both Storm decks and Show and Tell decks, so this stretches the deck a little thin as well if you want to have a good game plan against both.
I think regular counterspell is highly underrated. The fact that it costs 2 sometimes is a little awkward compared to more efficient answers, but considering how flexible it is, I think this trade off is worth it. It shouldn't be your main answer, but counterspells (in the main or side) can really supplement other cards for every matchup. I usually run 2-4 between main and side and have always been very happy with them.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
I think regular counterspell is highly underrated. The fact that it costs 2 sometimes is a little awkward compared to more efficient answers, but considering how flexible it is, I think this trade off is worth it. It shouldn't be your main answer, but counterspells (in the main or side) can really supplement other cards for every matchup. I usually run 2-4 between main and side and have always been very happy with them.
This. I am running 2 in the main and I can't recall a time that I wished them to be something else other than a 5th Brainstorm. I don't run red though, it's not necessary in my metagame at this time.
-ABC
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
'Nilla Pac
It never occurred to me to try out Canonist against Show and Tell decks. Thinking about it now, it's probably pretty good if you have a couple counterspells in your hand. Thanks, I'm going to have to try it out.
It's good because it makes sure you don't need to get in a counterwar with them. Also, even if you have no counters at all, it can buy you some time against Hive Mind or Omniscience if you drop it into play, although this is hardly optimal.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
To me Flusterstorm is somewhat geared toward Show and Tell variants. It might appear narrow, but it's very effective against that card and that card is just too popular, you can't afford to ignore it, it's better than Pyro/REB for this purpose.
Flusterstorm is not what I would consider a "Show and Tell geared card" - but rather a very good card in general, despite its obvious strengths against Show and Tell. This card isn't even narrow at all. It is obviously good against pretty much any Storm/Combodeck in general, that's common knowledge. But I still see people who still don't board it versus TempoThreshold... this card is just the plain bonkers against them, countering pretty much every spell in their deck at the cost of U while being able to ignore taxing counters? I'll buy it. It is great in Counter-vs-Counter Match-Ups too providing a 1) good counter 2) sometimes a blowout when being able to counter more spells at once - though being rather rare it happens on occasion.
Generally, despite me playing RIP Miracles at GP to Top64 I am now under the distinct impression that RIP/Helm might be outdated. If I was to build Miracles (seriously) for a tournament I'd definitely start with a Karakas/Legends/Spellbuild -- assuming the new rules were already status quo. It is still hard for me to believe that P.Fire should solve any problems Miracle has besides offering an effective way to kill Planeswalkers. There must be a better list atm - probably a traditional UWr Counterbalance-Miracle - I'll probably post my new list these days.
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Generally, despite me playing RIP Miracles at GP to Top64 I am now under the distinct impression that RIP/Helm might be outdated. If I was to build Miracles (seriously) for a tournament I'd definitely start with a Karakas/Legends/Spellbuild Greetings
I've noticed that perception online as well and I definitely admit RiP version does feel clunky at times. However, after examining all the match-ups, I still don't see the benefits of dropping RiP:
BUG/Jund - Goyf, DRS, PFire
RUG - Goyf
dark maverick - knight, DRS
(death) stoneblade - lingering souls, snapcaster, (DRS)*
One can make a counter-argument stating Terminus and StP are already doing enough removals; however, that's simply not the case. A smart Miracle opponent is not going to unload his hand such that all of his threats can be Terminus away. I've seen lots of tournament reports and SCG coverage where Miracle players can make the best trade possible, via removal, given the board situation, but fail to find answer for the next threat. As long as Goyf and DRS are staples in Legacy, I would say deterrent/hoser in the form of permanent such as RiP is still pretty much alive, not to mention even Joe still MD at least 1 RiP in SCG Seattle.
Regarding DRS, it started out in Jund somewhat, then maverick picked it up, now it's getting into Stoneblade. The more people try to fit it into every single Legacy deck, the better off it is for Miracle.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think RiP is something you need to have in your 75, but you don't want Helms at all. Going all-in on the RiP/Helm wincon has always seemed very loose to me, drawing the Helm without RiP is always miserable, and I find that you win more matches by having a higher density of cards that actually do things in your MD - I've had the most success with the creature versions, especially derivatives of Raphael Levy's list from Straßburg top16. There have been games where you get set up for Helm and have them otherwise locked, but they sandbag the Abrupt Decay and stand a chance of mounting a comeback. Being able to just Tutor for a wincon is great, but I prefer having real ways to win the game alongside having RiP as the most powerful sb card in our arsenal against a majority of the field.
I like Flusterstorm a lot. It's solid against just about every tempo and combo deck. Einherjer is right about it being crazy against thresh!
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I definitly like the red splash. Every single creature of Esper Blade dies to Pyroclasm.
And every single creature of the game dies to Pyroclasm + RiP. Apart from the SO HATED Batterskull.
Really have to do something about it
Also:
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 RiP
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Blood Moon
looks like a safe package.
The singleton Helm has to be seen as an alternative win condition that requires 1 single spot.
i'm already playing 3 RiP for its effectiveness (the best answear ever to a turn 1 Deathrite, turn 2 Goyf) against 30-40% of the format. it just goes wild with Energy Field and it just wins the match with the Helm
I'm already playing 3 Tutors because Humility (SB), RiP Counterbalance Top Cursed Totem (SB) are pieces that I do want to draw.
so: I'm already playing 3 RiPs, I'm already playing 3 Tutors, an alt win that requires only one slot is definitly something I want to pack. 1 Helm in.
Other WC: Vendilion Clique + Karakas, Jace, Elspeth
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Despite agreeing with you on Pyroclasm I had to cough when I read your cardlist. 3 Enlightened Tutors? This card is just bad. I always hated being forced to play a single copy. Yes it is sweet to tutor up the correct cc-cost for the Counterbalance, yes it is sweet to grab great 1ofs / silverbullets against special match-ups preboard but, and this is most importantly - it creates carddisadvantage! One might say this is not that important concidering the fact that we gain specially tuned cards for the very match-up at the cost of -1 card but... these cards are still counter / destroyable (very easily). It's not like tutoring a Sword of the Meek in good old CounterThopter where you didn't care about the fact what the opponent is doing with the card tutored! We tutor for things that can be handled for U easily - RIP for example or just die to Abrupt Decay or get Pierced or anything, you know. I think you will not be able to overcome this great loss of tempo most of the time. Hence 1 Englightened Tutor ups the count of silverbullets +1 while not overlaording your deck with CDA-tutors. I'd much rather up the RIP and CB count and cut 2 E-Tutors in your case (or just anything^^)!
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
Despite agreeing with you on Pyroclasm I had to cough when I read your cardlist. 3 Enlightened Tutors? This card is just bad. I always hated being forced to play a single copy. Yes it is sweet to tutor up the correct cc-cost for the Counterbalance, yes it is sweet to grab great 1ofs / silverbullets against special match-ups preboard but, and this is most importantly - it creates carddisadvantage! One might say this is not that important concidering the fact that we gain specially tuned cards for the very match-up at the cost of -1 card but... these cards are still counter / destroyable (very easily). It's not like tutoring a Sword of the Meek in good old CounterThopter where you didn't care about the fact what the opponent is doing with the card tutored! We tutor for things that can be handled for U easily - RIP for example or just die to Abrupt Decay or get Pierced or anything, you know. I think you will not be able to overcome this great loss of tempo most of the time. Hence 1 Englightened Tutor ups the count of silverbullets +1 while not overlaording your deck with CDA-tutors. I'd much rather up the RIP and CB count and cut 2 E-Tutors in your case (or just anything^^)!
Greetings
I agree 3 tutors is too many, but I've been pretty happy with two.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
We tutor for things that can be handled for U easily - RIP for example or just die to Abrupt Decay or get Pierced or anything, you know. I think you will not be able to overcome this great loss of tempo most of the time. Hence 1 Englightened Tutor ups the count of silverbullets +1 while not overlaording your deck with CDA-tutors. I'd much rather up the RIP and CB count and cut 2 E-Tutors in your case (or just anything^^)!
Greetings
I don't know about you, but Enlightened Tutor in response to Show and Tell with SDT in play to pick up what you just tutored, sounds like solid play to me. I would tutor for Humility against Sneak and Show every time if S&S player dares me and play that Show and Tell.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I don't know about you, but Enlightened Tutor in response to Show and Tell with SDT in play to pick up what you just tutored, sounds like solid play to me. I would tutor for Humility against Sneak and Show every time if S&S player dares me and play that Show and Tell.
I don't know about you, but against Jund/BUG that Touraches you and Thoughtseizes and Liliana'es you, I would not want to topdeck a dead card or to sacrifice an entire drawstep to tutor for a card that will be likely to be Decayed or have a non-resolutive impact on the game (best should be Blood Moon or Rest in Peace, and both don't spell good game at all, not even Blood Moon most of the times). "Oh look, I'm bottlenecked in a tight spot with him having a couple dorks in play and a Liliana, let's hope to draw a business spell.." *Flips Enlightened Tutor off the top*
Against Miracle, I wouldn't want to give up a draw in the battle of card advantage. I'd much rather give that draw a spin and hope to find something relevant. What's the best you can tutor for in this matchup? Divining Top or Counterbalance here? Top can help you in winning card quality on the long run, but I'd rather increase the overall consistency in devoting that slot to always-good card, as, e.g., Ponder. Counterbalance is critical just in given occasions of timing and luck.
--------------------------
Enlightened Tutor pretty much shines only against combo matchups, where you can get away by running 1 and tweaking your number to strenghten the so-called "solution" slots- and where your mix of Counterbalance, REBs, Fstorms, (Canonist) and manipulation already gives you an acceptable matchup. ETutor, on the other hand, tends to suck in the archetype's worst matchups, and this is not really a thing to dismiss...
Flexibility is an all-around good and this can't be denied, but Miracle already plays a critical mass of dead/clunky cards, I wouldn't dare to add more dirt. One could argue that against decks like Goblins and Maverick having multiple Humilities is surely fine, and it is; still, I would not go beyond the mono-copy, even in the Helm-kill variants. Controlling cards that do something on their own are the priority, the combo part is just an added value that should take as less slots as possible, otherwise the result will be a crappy hybrid that can't play neither role correctly. In my opinion, the correct balancing of Etutors is 1 main plus 1 in the sideboard, to come in in combo matchups alongside the aforementioned solutions.
But still, all this talk falls again into the wider "Rip or no Rip?" argument, which at this point is strictly a matter of personal taste.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello everyone,
Recently have been introduced to the Source through a friend. Been a follower, but now first time poster. I will be taking a Miracles List to #SCGSTL this Sunday, and will try to provide as much of a report on the deck as I can. Currently, my list is as follows:
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Instant/Sorcery:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
Artifact:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
Enchantment:
3 Counterbalance
2 Detention Sphere
Planeswalker:
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Land:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Plains
5 Island
SIDEBOARD:
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Geist of St. Traft
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Disenchant
I know it is not a cookie-cutter build, but that is what I like about it. I like 61 cards to mess with High Tide math just in case (I have won a game this way in the past). Any suggestions/feedback before I pilot it Sunday?
Thank you and I look forward to talking MTG with all of you.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Different players can give you reasonable justifications for their own builds, even while contradicting each other. And they can both be right, because they are trying to build the deck that they like the best, or will do the best in their own hands. If you want to differentiate yourself by playing some cards (like Top) in different quantities than other people, then you should. There is nothing wrong with playing strictly for fun.
But asking for suggestions is kind of silly. Some of the quirks in your deck are not debatable, and presumably you know that. There are several different Miracle builds at this point. What you have there is strictly inferior in my eyes. You have reduced consistency without gaining anything. So what is it that you are after here? If you are just announcing your arrival in this thread, and telling us that you are playing at the event this weekend, cool. I'll be watching.
If you want to build a better deck, start by cutting to 60 and adding the fourth Top. If it was me, one each of Enlightened Tutor and Snapcaster Mage get the axe. I would accept arguments suggesting different cuts, but the cuts do need to happen.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manroe
Hello everyone,
Recently have been introduced to the Source through a friend. Been a follower, but now first time poster. I will be taking a Miracles List to #SCGSTL this Sunday, and will try to provide as much of a report on the deck as I can. Currently, my list is as follows:
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Instant/Sorcery:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
Artifact:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
Enchantment:
3 Counterbalance
2 Detention Sphere
Planeswalker:
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Land:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Plains
5 Island
SIDEBOARD:
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Geist of St. Traft
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Disenchant
I know it is not a cookie-cutter build, but that is what I like about it. I like 61 cards to mess with High Tide math just in case (I have won a game this way in the past). Any suggestions/feedback before I pilot it Sunday?
Thank you and I look forward to talking MTG with all of you.
I would defninetly cut 2 tutor, 1 snappy and add 1 SDT and 1 ETA (so go down to 60 cards). Another thing is your Land base, you play 21 Lands (1 oft them is also a riptide!). Thats to low, 22 colourproducing lands are more solid!
I think more than one tutor is too much in that version (2 are ok/solid in a helm variant). A 4th force or a 3rd SP would be also nice against the unfair decks. A Karakas would be great too against Reanimater, Sneak Show er opponent Clique...
I'm not a big fan oft SFM in hat deck but OK BS is quiet solid against BGx Decks and random stuff linke burn or something...
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manroe
Hello everyone,
Recently have been introduced to the Source through a friend. Been a follower, but now first time poster. I will be taking a Miracles List to #SCGSTL this Sunday, and will try to provide as much of a report on the deck as I can. Currently, my list is as follows:
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Instant/Sorcery:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
Artifact:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
Enchantment:
3 Counterbalance
2 Detention Sphere
Planeswalker:
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Land:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Plains
5 Island
SIDEBOARD:
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Geist of St. Traft
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Disenchant
I know it is not a cookie-cutter build, but that is what I like about it. I like 61 cards to mess with High Tide math just in case (I have won a game this way in the past). Any suggestions/feedback before I pilot it Sunday?
Thank you and I look forward to talking MTG with all of you.
I would defninetly cut 2 tutor, 1 snappy and add 1 SDT and 1 ETA (so go down to 60 cards). Another thing is your Land base, you play 21 Lands (1 oft them is also a riptide!). Thats to low, 22 colourproducing lands are more solid!
I think more than one tutor is too much in that version (2 are ok/solid in a helm variant). A 4th force or a 3rd SP would be also nice against the unfair decks. A Karakas would be great too against Reanimater, Sneak Show er opponent Clique...
I'm not a big fan oft SFM in hat deck but OK BS is quiet solid against BGx Decks and random stuff linke burn or something...
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manroe
I know it is not a cookie-cutter build, but that is what I like about it. I like 61 cards to mess with High Tide math just in case (I have won a game this way in the past). Any suggestions/feedback before I pilot it Sunday?
Thank you and I look forward to talking MTG with all of you.
This is Joe Bass's list (and the only Miracleblade that I recall doing well recently). If I were you and I were convinced that SFM was the way to go, I'd probably model my list after this and make some adjustments from there.
Creatures (5)
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
Spells (30)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blood Moon
1 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Terminus
1 Mountain
The first adjustments I'd probably make would be to cut either EE or Supreme Verdict for the 4th Top (I lean towards cutting EE) and cut the second Counterspell for the 3rd Spell Pierce (Pierce gains a lot of value alongside the SFMs).
The sideboard is a little wonky also, but you can adjust that as needed (probably cut the second Blood Moon for an ETutor or something).
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hey everyone, appreciate the suggestions.
I have debated some changes and feel I owe explanation to card choices. First off, the reason I want SFM is the over-abundance of RUG Delver, Bug, and Burn in the St. Louis area. There are a TON of these decks around, and I know I will run into them like I have the other 3 legacy opens I have played in here in StL. I agree that 3 Enlightened Tutors and 4 Snappys are too high, and will cut to 2 and 2 Respectively, freeing up 3 spaces in the MD. Will replace the Riptide with another island and take out Tundra #4 for another plains. If I can find a Karakas for the event tomorrow, I will use one -- the same goes for a SB Humility. With the new space in the MD, I was considering adding the following:
Option 1:
1 Arid Mesa, 1 SDT
Option 2:
1 SDT, 1 Clique
Option 3:
1 SDT, 1 Echoing Truth
I feel that Echoing Truth is definitely a good tech in the deck. It helps me deal with a lot of troublesome cards and can dispose of them via Counterbalance. Once again I appreciate the feedback.
Off-Topic: I am new to the forum, is there a sticky for learning how to link cards? Thanks.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
my 2 cents: if you're not playing 4 Tops already, add the fourth
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Stoneforge Mystic is a fine card. Nobody can put up too much of an argument otherwise, even though a lot of Miracle decks don't play it. As for your options, I like Echoing Truth the least. You already have a pair of Detention Spheres which have a similar effect.
Since you are running two Disenchants, you could possibly change one of them into a Seal of Cleansing. The downside is that you cannot use Snapcaster on it. Upside is that you can preemptively lay it down so that you are protected from Choke or Counterbalance, and that you can Enlightened Tutor for it if you need to.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
So you guys think that actually the rip+helm version is not the best version? Would you change to the legendary+Karakas version? I used to play Alex Binek version http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/vis...75592&id=10367 but i dont know if its the best i can play with as many bug as i see.
Sorry for my english is not my maternal language.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@Manroe
If you're dead-set on running Tutors, I would make sure that you both have the fourth Top and a maindeck Rest in Peace. The Top is close to nonoptional, in many ways, it's the best card in the deck. RiP gives you the best card to fight against RUG and several other strategies where you don't lose much in the way of consistency by running it as a 1-of with two Tutors but have an awful lot to gain.
@fluuu
I don't think Helm is the way to go, it requires you to run more dead cards against BUG and a lot has to go right for it to work better than other options in that matchup. They have all of the best ways of fighting it and more than enough ways to hang in a grindy game. I find that the best ways to beat them are with an Entreat for 2+ or Jace-locking them if you manage to get to that stage in the game. They're hard-pressed for ways to beat Entreat with a counterspell to back it up. Elspeth is also fine because she blocks goyfs forever and kills Jace. Personally I think that the legendary 5-creature version is the best suited build of the deck at the moment, but you have to account for what you expect to see in your own metagame and your play style. There are so many ways to take the core of the archetype that what works best for me may not work for you.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
James Dean
I don't think Helm is the way to go, it requires you to run more dead cards against BUG and a lot has to go right for it to work better than other options in that matchup. They have all of the best ways of fighting it and more than enough ways to hang in a grindy game.
Even if RIP Miracles isn't as effective against BUG (and with all of their Goyfs and Deathrites, I'm not sure that is even the case), but even if it isn't as good as vanilla Miracles, you'll maybe only bump into them once or twice during a big tournament. RIP/Helm just tears up all of the random decks and quirky situations that you'll get into. Sure, it's cheesy sometimes, but when you are playing a deck as grindy as we are and staring down the clock in game 3, I'd rather have the ability to just instantly win over a single turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
James Dean
I find that the best ways to beat them are with an Entreat for 2+ or Jace-locking them if you manage to get to that stage in the game. They're hard-pressed for ways to beat Entreat with a counterspell to back it up.
A good Entreat is definitely the best way to beat BGx. I really don't think it's the fact that RIP is "clunky" so much as vanilla Miracles tends to run 2-3 Entreat in its 75, while RIP Miracles only runs 1-2. You can (and possibly should) be playing RIP Miracles alongside 2-3 Entreats in this meta. RIP and multiple Entreats don't have to be mutually exclusive.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fluuu
So you guys think that actually the rip+helm version is not the best version? Would you change to the legendary+Karakas version? I used to play Alex Binek version
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/vis...75592&id=10367 but i dont know if its the best i can play with as many bug as i see.
Sorry for my english is not my maternal language.
I think there doesn't exist a BEST Version, it just depends in your playstyle & your local meta.
For example:I played the RIP/Helm Version at friday against my buddy's with BUG (2:1), german ***** (burg 6:2) and B/W (3:1) and Dredge (2:0).
The results werde quiet good but I still will not play hat version in the future because I realized that this is not my playstyle.
Moreover, the games which i won with the helm combo would have won by ETA too even if I'm a big fan oft RIP MD^^
For me personally I will play a more flashy Version with Clique, Snappy and a mix between cheap counters (snare, pierce, counterspell, Force) and PW's like Jace + 2-3 ETA...
Another thing with the Helm/balance Version was that the games went very long and we were not able to play 3 games in 45-50 minutes like in a real tournament. A big ETA eot win the game more fast...And I like the fact that there decays, swords, bolts are dead/weak...RIP got stifled, snared, Pierce or decayed most oft the time too.
CB and RIP in the SB should be fine right now but as I said before -> play a deck hat fits your playstyle...
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The more DRS out there in the field, the better Rip-helm will do. This is especially true now DRS is in Stoneforge, Jund, and BUG.
The problem with Angel Spell version is inefficiency. When your opponent is abusing graveyard because Goyf and Past in Flames, the flashback-ing of Snapcaster appears to be cute and random. It is painful sometimes you can tell Miracle wants to use StP twice but the player does not have it, he has to flashback brainstorm instead to dig deeper.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi all.
I am new to this and am thinking of playing this deck to an upcoming tournament.
Here is the decklist I have so far, it is basically a mix of what I have seen floating about.
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Mystic Gate
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Field
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Wear/Tear
1 Counterspell
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Celestial Purge
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Misdirection
1 Humility
How does this look? I see a lot of lists are running spell pierce but I don't have that in my list, do I really need it?
Are there any obvious changes I should make?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
From a glance, what I see possibly lacking is the number of counter-magic -- not necessarily spell pierce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
magic_gazz
Hi all.
I am new to this and am thinking of playing this deck to an upcoming tournament.
Here is the decklist I have so far, it is basically a mix of what I have seen floating about.
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Mystic Gate
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Field
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Wear/Tear
1 Counterspell
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Celestial Purge
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Misdirection
1 Humility
How does this look? I see a lot of lists are running spell pierce but I don't have that in my list, do I really need it?
Are there any obvious changes I should make?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Vendilion Clique, Oblivion Ring, more Counterspell?
you have no control of the stack apart from CounterTop and no control of the field apart from creatures.
two questions for everyone:
1) Why someone play Supreme Verdict when a simple Pyroclasm (or the 4th Terminus) is strictly better? the singleton uncounterability is that important?
2) What about Porphyry Nodes in place of Swords to Plowshares? (or just as more creatures hate)
We would obtein a wonderfull effect: they have to over-extend their creatures on the field and then Terminus gets rid of the board.
imho Porphyry Nodes is very suited for this deck. Definitly to try. May be in place of Pyroclasm
3 Terminus
4 StP
2 Porphyry Nodes (+1 SB)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Vendilion Clique, Oblivion Ring, more Counterspell?
you have no control of the stack apart from CounterTop and no control of the field apart from creatures.
two questions for everyone:
1) Why someone play Supreme Verdict when a simple Pyroclasm (or the 4th Terminus) is strictly better? the singleton uncounterability is that important?
2) What about Porphyry Nodes in place of Swords to Plowshares? (or just as more creatures hate)
We would obtein a wonderfull effect: they have to over-extend their creatures on the field and then Terminus gets rid of the board.
imho Porphyry Nodes is very suited for this deck. Definitly to try. May be in place of Pyroclasm
3 Terminus
4 StP
2 Porphyry Nodes (+1 SB)
How does porphyry nodes force them to over commit? They just let their creatures die, nodes dies, and they start over. It buys you some time, maybe but it doesn't force them to commit more.
The problem with nodes is: it doesn't solve your problem right away, it's painfully slow and ineffective when you want a certain target gone fast. It's certainly not better than swords.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
you play it when they have 2-3 creatures. if you manage to get rid of those you have a good card advantage (overall if you have Elspeth and chump block them)
card advantage
tempo gainer
if they really "love" a creature for strategy or whatever they over commit playing more creatures to save them...
I would test a couple, actually. My question is: has someone already tried them? with what results?
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Lol nah this card is probably just bad. You play it when they got 2-3 creatures? Congrats! They will just continue to kill you! You will chumpblock with Elspeth? Well why you need Nodes again? Nah dude this card is just horrible for the purposes you mentioned!
Though it has some upsides too! It is "W: Kill target Mungo, take 3." - which isn't bad at all. But it is not good against bigger amounts of creatures. Swords is still the best Pointremoval and Terminus/Clasm is superior to Nodes when dealing with multiple creatures. I would not know why I would really play that card.
Greetings
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
to stay on colors and not go for Pyroclasm, but, yes, Pyro is definitly better (with RiP) is almost a wrath of god
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Vendilion Clique, Oblivion Ring, more Counterspell?
you have no control of the stack apart from CounterTop and no control of the field apart from creatures.
two questions for everyone:
1) Why someone play Supreme Verdict when a simple Pyroclasm (or the 4th Terminus) is strictly better? the singleton uncounterability is that important?
2) What about Porphyry Nodes in place of Swords to Plowshares? (or just as more creatures hate)
We would obtein a wonderfull effect: they have to over-extend their creatures on the field and then Terminus gets rid of the board.
imho Porphyry Nodes is very suited for this deck. Definitly to try. May be in place of Pyroclasm
3 Terminus
4 StP
2 Porphyry Nodes (+1 SB)
Supreme Verdict is pitchable to FoW and yes the uncounterable suit is very important against tempo Decks (RUG, TA, UWR). I play atm a 4th terminus but verdict has his advantages...
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
to stay on colors and not go for Pyroclasm, but, yes, Pyro is definitly better (with RiP) is almost a wrath of god
There is probably no reason not to play red.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Vendilion Clique, Oblivion Ring, more Counterspell?
1) Why someone play Supreme Verdict when a simple Pyroclasm (or the 4th Terminus) is strictly better? the singleton uncounterability is that important?
2) What about Porphyry Nodes in place of Swords to Plowshares? (or just as more creatures hate)
We would obtein a wonderfull effect: they have to over-extend their creatures on the field and then Terminus gets rid of the board.
imho Porphyry Nodes is very suited for this deck. Definitly to try. May be in place of Pyroclasm
1. Pitch to FoW and it Actually sweeps against RUG delver and Stoneblades, not running into opponent's Spell Pierce and FoW.
2. Nodes can be played around and it's slow. Smart players will minimize what Nodes can do, I personally tested Nodes myself, even Goblin players know how to play around it. If you play 1 Node against 1 opponent's creature, the 1-for-1 trade is inefficient, if you wait until you can 2-for-1, the damage from these creatures might be too much. You seem to test Nodes against mediocre players who don't know how to play around it.
Why would you run Pyro at sorcery speed when you can just instant W and remove better? When it comes down to mass creature removal,
1. Terminus
2. Supreme Verdict
Please do not hype up Pyroclasm, when it cannot deal with a popular card known Goyf.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
1. Pitch to FoW and it Actually sweeps against RUG delver and Stoneblades, not running into opponent's Spell Pierce and FoW.
2. Nodes can be played around and it's slow. Smart players will minimize what Nodes can do, I personally tested Nodes myself, even Goblin players know how to play around it. If you play 1 Node against 1 opponent's creature, the 1-for-1 trade is inefficient, if you wait until you can 2-for-1, the damage from these creatures might be too much. You seem to test Nodes against mediocre players who don't know how to play around it.
Why would you run Pyro at sorcery speed when you can just instant W and remove better? When it comes down to mass creature removal,
1. Terminus
2. Supreme Verdict
Please do not hype up Pyroclasm, when it cannot deal with a popular card known Goyf.
In his version with rip it can! And its quiet nice massremoval for 2 magna (fast against Decks like el es or goblins). Sometimes you just draw your terminus in your opening 7 and habe no BS. In situations linke hat is a pyroclasm quiet nice.
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manipulato
In his version with rip it can! And its quiet nice massremoval for 2 magna (fast against Decks like el es or goblins). Sometimes you just draw your terminus in your opening 7 and habe no BS. In situations linke hat is a pyroclasm quiet nice.
and pyroclasm is a dead card when:
1. Goyf in play, most of time.
2. Mongoose has threshold.
3. Batterksull in play.
4. Useless in any Show and Tell variants, at least Terminus and Supreme Verdict have a chance.
