[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

If people just sat down with the damn thing, sorted a stock list out and gold-fished a few hundred pre and post-board hands they would be fine.

The hardest games to win with Dredge are obviously games two and three. This is where you have to have experience in tournament play to make playing it worth your while. Yeah, the deck gets stupid hands and wins games without interaction sometimes. But when you're in round six or seven of an eight or nine-round tournament and need a "win and in," you had better believe your opponent is (probably) competent enough to at least give you trouble if you put the deck on autopilot and think you're going to cruise to the elimination rounds. Not gonna happen.

Every time I pick up Manaless Dredge and play it I go into each match assuming my opponent is prepared and capable enough of beating me flat out. I play each hand tight - super tight. I stay humble in the face of my opponents and give each and every one of them the benefit of the doubt. But you have to fucking practice. Longevity is what makes you a better player with any deck, and while it appears on paper to be easy to play, it just really isn't. Graveyard hate has shit to do with keeping the deck down; it's poor piloting. And until people start realizing that they will continue to under-perform with it in large events.

If you're new to playing it and want to master it, test it in three phases like I did:

Phase One: Play a few hundred hands pre-board by yourself until you get comfortable with making decisions and how the deck works. Have a metagamed sideboard prepared for later.
Phase Two: Find a friend and test a gauntlet through each competitive deck in the format pre-board. Do this until you're comfortable playing against those decks.
Phase Three: Assess each match-up's strengths and weaknesses and build a list of what to bring in and what to take out. Then test against the same gauntlet post-board until you've got a feel for what to sub in and out and make adjustments as needed.

Remember: in a tournament, you have to win two games to win a match. This might mean having to play three games, which means that there's a reasonable chance that 66.7% of your individual rounds in a tournament will include sideboard cards (games two and three).

Think of playing Dredge like playing a guitar. It's not that hard to play Major (easier | game one) chords once you get them down, but in order to get better you have to combine those chords to ultimately make an entire song (harder | games two and three). If you want to make your song good, you need to decide what chords work well together. This necessitates practice, something you have to have if you want to succeed at this game - and Dredge in particular.

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i agree with you completely about poor piloting being the primary obstacle to deck. When I first put dredge together i thought the most fun and best way to play was just simply blowing people out turn by turn by making the most explosive plays possible. I used to get killed by people playing relative gy hate such as crypt and relic and leyline. i just had no diea how to bet these hate pieces. but honestly over time, and practice, it becomes so much easier. graveyard hate is really more of a nuisance then anthing. the level ofpatience required to play dredge is underrated, and the new flavors of the month of the month in RIP and Deathrite shaman are not dredge killers. deathrite shaman is too slow against us to do anything meaningful game one anyway, and rest in peace come down on turn TWO. both irrelevent game one. and we already have answers to both of these threats in our sideboards anyway. Firestorm is pretty damn good against any hate thats creature based, and rest in peace still dies to nature's claim. dredge wont be going anywhere, if anything these new pieces will just be another false sense of security non dredge players can hide behind

Looks like Nicholas Rausch is back with a neat Manaless Dredge decklist for the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open in Columbus.

Deck Tech: Manaless Dredge with Nick Rausch from StarCityGames.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxNvI...layer_embedded


2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor

4 Bridge from Below
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

Sideboard:
3 Nature's Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Sickening Shoal
4 Reverent Silence
1 Forest
2 Verdant Catacomb

Source: StarCityGames.com

More good news...

Also, with a rather standard LED Dredge list, Timothy Froehlig made it through day 1 undefeated at the Grand Prix Denver.


Froehlig's Decklist:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Tormod's Crypt

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/da...n13/Dredge.jpg

Source: Wizards.com

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Originally Posted by Godmode

Looks like Nicholas Rausch is back with a neat Manaless Dredge decklist...

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Fwiw - That list is actually Hollywood's list that he's been developing for a very long time now.

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Fwiw - That list is actually Hollywood's list that he's been developing for a very long time now.

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Thanks for pointing that. I actually realized that and found weird that Nick didn't mention Michael Keller (a.k.a. Hollywood) at all, but it didn't bother me much because Nick never mentioned that he "created" the list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Godmode

More good news...

Also, with a rather standard LED Dredge list, Timothy Froehlig made it through day 1 undefeated at the Grand Prix Denver.


Froehlig's Decklist:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Tormod's Crypt

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/da...n13/Dredge.jpg

Source: Wizards.com

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I don't understand this list. Why does he play 2 Tormods MAIN?

And people were worried Dredge was dead? :) I'm happy about this :)

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Originally Posted by DarkJester

I don't understand this list. Why does he play 2 Tormods MAIN?

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Tech against Bug?

The picture is not the same as that list. I'm unsure if that is intentional or not. I see Paradise in the picture, but that's not anywhere in the 75. Maybe those Crypts were a typo, and are supposed to be lands?

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Originally Posted by Godmode

Thanks for pointing that. I actually realized that and found weird that Nick didn't mention Michael Keller (a.k.a. Hollywood) at all, but it didn't bother me much because Nick never mentioned that he "created" the list.

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i actually talked to nick about that at columbus..he said he got the deck off of the source...

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Originally Posted by MRmtg

i actually talked to nick about that at columbus..he said he got the deck off of the source...

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He really doesn't wanna give hollywood credit.

Anyways.

Looks like no one even bothers against dredge anymore. You see those sideboards, people don't even run 1 graveyard hate.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

He really doesn't wanna give hollywood credit.

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From the manaless thread.

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Originally Posted by Sovelis

Sorry hollywood. During the deck tech it completely slipped my mind to give u credit where its due and as soon it was over i remebered i wanted to do it and beat myself up over it. I do appreciate the pm and advice. Don't ever stop improving the deck.

As far as the tournament goes i did get a little unlucky in a matchup vs jund with him topdecking a case bolt to kill me the turn before he dies as well as having to play against 2 other combo decks. Ended up 3-4 drop but i would definatly play the deck again as its great for the current metagame.

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It's not that he didn't want to give him credit. He simply forgot. Can we stop jumping down his throat for it?

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Looks like no one even bothers against dredge anymore. You see those sideboards, people don't even run 1 graveyard hate.

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I completely agree. The amount of GY hate in SBs from what I've seen has been on the decline for a while now. I don't know if it will get low enough for dredge to steal a tourny win, but we might be getting close.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

The picture is not the same as that list. I'm unsure if that is intentional or not. I see Paradise in the picture, but that's not anywhere in the 75. Maybe those Crypts were a typo, and are supposed to be lands?

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Thanks for pointing that. I didn't even notice it. I picked up the picture from the GP coverage, maybe it's not his list. This list shows the 2 Tormod's aswell, so the picture might be not his deck

Btw, can anyone get Tim to post some sort of look back/mini report of the event here?

The Crypts are Tarnished Citadels.

Why is this Thread so quiet? Everybody has been having trouble with Deathrites and stuff?

Ok, a little report from my locals might help, Went 3-1 with the following:

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

1) Jund (2-0)
G1: I win the die roll, and keep a powerful seven: Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough, Lion's Eye Diamond, Faithless Looting, Bridge from Below, Griselbrand. It does lack a Dredger, but my turn 1 Looting finds a Stinkweed Imp, which I promptly dump with Bridge, cast LED and flashback Therapy, dredging 1 Narcomoeba and another Bridge, pass. He starts with Thoughtseize, taking away my Breakthrough. I untap for turn 2, dredge a little further, and cast Breakthrough into Griselbrand to seal the deal.

Sideboarding: nothing, I wasn't expecting Leyline of the Void.

G2: He starts with Deathrite Shaman, off a fetchland. That would be pretty scary if I hadn't drawn the following: City of Brass, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Faithless Looting, Golgari Grave-Troll, Golgari Thug, Ichorid. I procede to cast Faithless Looting, flashback it, and cast another one that is dredged up, and build 16 Zombies on first turn. He concedes.

2) Esperblade (2-1)
G1: I keep a good seven on the draw, that has only Faithless Looting as business. He starts with Inquisition of Kozilek, immediately taking my Faithless Looting. I draw Lion's Eye Diamond for the turn and smile, casting it. It resolves. I dredge 11 cards deep, dumping some Ichorids and food in my graveyard. He plays Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull, which is kinda silly, as I have a Therapy in my graveyard as well. I recur two Ichorids, dredge with GGT (hitting 1 bridge), I sacrifice my Ichorid to Cabal Therapy taking Batterskull, and attack with the other one. He decides not to block it and takes 3. Next turn, he cast a Brainstorm, fetches up, and pass. I retreive only one Ichorid this time, lacking food, and Dredge into another bridge. I attack with Ichorid + 2 tokens, and he blocks the token, and puts Jitte into play before combat phase, and I pass. He brainstorm again, and is unable to find Lingering Souls, so he ships back the turn. I retreive Ichorid once again, and now I dredge into Griselbrand. I Therapy for Swords to Plowshares and he shows me some Jace and discard, path is clear. I Return Griselbrand, dredge almost my whole deck, and make a 14/14 Golgari Grave-Troll. He draws for the turn, and concedes.

Sideboarding: -4 Lion's Eye Diamond, +3 Tarnished Citadel, +1 Cabal Therapy

G2: I mulligan into a weak six, and keep it. He starts with Thoughtseize, taking my Grave-Troll, and targets Surgical Extraction on it. I draw for the turn, play a Faithless Looting with can't find another dredger. He plays Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull. I try to Therapy it, but he Forces it. Batterskull ends the game in 5 turns, as I draw blanks.

Sideboarding: -2 Dread Return, -1 Griselbrand, -1 Tarnished Citadel +4 Lion's Eye Diamond

G3: I keep a fast seven: City of Brass, Cephalid Coliseum, Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Grave-Troll, Careful Study, Careful Study, Narcomoeba. He mulligans to 5, and I can combo off turn 2 unmolested. He only plays a fetchland, Brainstorms into blanks and die to 8 Zombie tokens + Ichorids.

3) T.E.S (0-2)
G1: I start with Careful Study, preparing my turn 2 Coliseum. He starts with double Dark Ritual, double Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, break LEDs, Ad Nauseam, and Tendrils for 24. Sigh.

Sideboarding: -1 Griselbrand, -1 Ichorid +1 Cabal Therapy +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

G2: I start with a blind Therapy on Lion's Eye Diamond, and I miss. He plays Ponder and pass. I play Faithless Looting, setting a Breakthrough next turn. He plays Brainstorm, finds what he needed, and procede to combo me out via Burning Wish to Diminishing Returns, and kills me with Tendrils for exact storm.

4) Team America BUG (2-0)
G1: He won the roll, and starts with Deathrite Shaman from an Underground Sea. I play Careful Study and drop two dredgers, setting up a Breakthrough. He Ponders and can't find a fetch or a green source and shuffle. He plays another Underground Sea, and Hymn to Tourach. Hymn takes two irrelevant cards from my hand. I cast Breakthrough dredge half my deck, and return Griselbrand to dredge the other half. He manages to blow my Zombies with Pernicious Deed, but Griselbrand is too much for him.

Sideboarding: nothing

G2: He starts with Ponder, shuffle and pass. I start with Putrid Imp. I have GGT and Coliseum in my hand, so I feel rather confident. He plays a land, and cast Delver of Secrets, and keeps a fetch untapped. I discard GGT in my upkeep, dredge 6, discard it again and blow up the Coliseum. He sighs and shows me double Spell Pierce plus Daze in his hand. I dredge into a lot of zombies, and try to Therapy him twice. He pierces the first, Dazes the second. He draws for the turn, and complains that Daze is an awful card, replay the land, cast Tarmogoyf and pass. I retreive Ichorids and beat him to 5 life (blocks with Tarmogoyf and Delver). He finally manages to Deed away my Tokens, but I have enough Ichorids to keep hitting, and two turns after, he's dead.




It was a side event for a Standard tournament that was happening in my local store, so we didn't get any prizes. Just playing for fun. I've really enjoyed the maindeck, and my deck didn't shit on me. Putrid Imp was almost never drawn, and Griselbrand is REALLY good as a Dread Return target. I might try some Bloodghast stuff in my next event, just for the lulz.

I've always liked combo, but was feeling like playing more interactive lately so put together UR Delver, BUG and a Stax deck. However more recently Dredge has been calling to me and I put together a nonLED version to mess around with. Looks very fun, waiting on the cards. Thanks for all the many many pages I've trawled the last few days and keep it up!

Played in my LGS and went 4-0

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Nature's Claim
4 Ingot Chewer
3 Firestorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ashen Ghoul

Round 1: Jund 2-1

I was on the play and kept a seemingly good hand with 2 Draw spells, dredgers and a rainbow land. Faithless Looting, discard dredgers, go. He plays Thoughtsieze and takes away my Careful Study. Dredged into junk while he plays Death Rite Shaman. The game went uphill after that while i dredged into nothing useful.

+3 Firestorm +2 Pithing Needle -4 Breakthrough -1 LED

I started with a Cabal Therapy naming DRS, he revealed a hand with DRS and Nihil Spellbomb. He plays the spellbomb and passes. Played the Needle naming Nihil Spellbomb then proceeded to go off. Well, not much. 2 Zombies, Stinkweed Imp and a Narcomoeba later, he blows the needle with an Abrupt Decay and removes my Graveyard then played a Goyf and Grim Lavamancer with his life at 5. I swung for 4, killing him with a Firestorm for 1. Game 3 starts off with 4 Bridges 2 Ichorid being dredged out in T2, 8 Zombies and an Ichorid was too much for a lone DRS to handle.

Round 2: U/W/r Stoneblade 2-1
I lost a race against 2 flipped Delvers and Lightning Bolt.

+4 Ingot Chewer -4 Breakthrough

Chewer on Batterskull, created zombies, dredged out Golgari Thug, play thug, Therapy sac'd Thug naming STP, returned Chewer on the top of the deck, rinse and repeat. Game 3 pretty much played like Game 2. Gotta love his reaction when he realized that he's facing an infinite number of Chewers.

Round 3: U/W Stoneblade 2-1
He FoW'd my Faithless Looting, leaving me with a hand with 4 Lands, a Troll and a LED. Play land go, play land and LED which he Spell Pierced, forcing me to ping myself to pay for the 2 mana. Play land go. The game went on like that until he finally played SFM fetching Jitte. Cracked the LED in my upkeep to discard the Troll then dredged. Nothing notable came out, i then cracked all 3 Cephalid Coliseum. 4 Bridges 4 Narcomoebas 4 Cabal Therapy into 16 Zombies. He scoops

+4 Ingot Chewer +4 Nature's Claim -4 LED -4 Breakthrough

2 Surgical Extractions coupled with 2 Wastelands slowed me enough for Batterskull to kill me. Game 3 he kept an 1 land hand with 3 removals which all 3 Narcomoeba ate. Hard casted Thug and Ichorid did some beats until a Bridged finally came out then i Therapy'd his hand away

Round 4: BUG 2-0
He muligans to 5 with no land, FoW'd my Opening Looting, then FoW'd my Top Deck'd Putrid Imp. Played a Careful Study, LED, LED, Breakthrough

+3 Firestorm +2 Pithing Needle

Typical Dredge hand, he has no answers. He nuked my Graveyard with a Tormod's Crypt though but it was too late with 4 Zombies and an Ichorid



Yes, i'm playing with a SB of excessive hate :laugh:

As someone who just picked this up, perhaps you can explain something to me.

Why do you take out the Breakthrough in almost (not sure what you took out in the fourth) every match you described?

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Originally Posted by ween

As someone who just picked this up, perhaps you can explain something to me.

Why do you take out the Breakthrough in almost (not sure what you took out in the fourth) every match you described?

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Games 2/3 are much more grindy than game 1. Breakthrough is too much of an all in card for grindy games.

Also, breakthrough is bad against decks that play discard on turn one since it is generally a card played on turn two.

With the current metagame (DRS everywhere), I'm starting to think Firestorm main would be the way to go. I'll play Manaless but mulling to Contagion (or simply mulling for that matter) just isn't right for that deck.

Probably a standard quad laser list -1 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Putrid Imp, for +3 Firestorm, +1 Darkblast?

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Originally Posted by sherko7

With the current metagame (DRS everywhere), I'm starting to think Firestorm main would be the way to go. I'll play Manaless but mulling to Contagion (or simply mulling for that matter) just isn't right for that deck.

Probably a standard quad laser list -1 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Putrid Imp, for +3 Firestorm, +1 Darkblast?

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As far as troublesome creatures what are we talking here? DRS is too slow for LED Dredge it can't keep up and theyr'e forced to leave mana up; DRS is usually in decks that are already running greedy manabeses and it strains them further when they need to keep the green up for DRS. Its also not too bad when they can't pull enchantments from the yard.

tbh the only creature I care about (other than Scavenging Ooze) would be Dark Confidant as it finds them additional hate, but if you're planning on running DB I guess that takes care of him.

Also I wouldn't cut Careful Study..

Hey Guys! New to the forums here but Ive been a lurker for a while. This is my dredge list but I am having a little trouble with a side board. I know they are meta dependant, but if I wanted to run a sort of catch all (or at least catch most lol) sb What would you suggest i run? Here is my md
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of brass
4 Cephillid Coliseum

4 L E D
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from below
3 Dread Return

4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomeaba
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the hatebound
1 Griselbrand
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave troll

I am just not sure what would be good as I dont really have a legacy meta in my area to prepare for so I was just wondering what your opinions were for a good Catch all sideboard.

Hi and welcome.

I think msot people would advocate for dropping to 2 Dread Return and maxing out on the full 4 Careful Study. Possibly cutting a Breakthrough to achieve this?

As far as sideboard goes, the popular option seems to be something like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Undiscovered paradise or Tarnished Citadel
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation

That should cover you from other peoples graveyard strategies (Leyline), targetted removal (Ghouls) or Artifact\Enchantment hate (claims\grudges\rays)

The additional land come in to support the repeated bringing back of Ghouls and casting Nature's claims

The other option since you're playing DR, is to go for one of creatures like Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Angel of Despair.

I'm by no means an expert, but i hope any of this is helpful.

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Originally Posted by ween

Hi and welcome.

I think msot people would advocate for dropping to 2 Dread Return and maxing out on the full 4 Careful Study. Possibly cutting a Breakthrough to achieve this?

As far as sideboard goes, the popular option seems to be something like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Undiscovered paradise or Tarnished Citadel
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation

That should cover you from other peoples graveyard strategies (Leyline), targetted removal (Ghouls) or Artifact\Enchantment hate (claims\grudges\rays)

The additional land come in to support the repeated bringing back of Ghouls and casting Nature's claims

The other option since you're playing DR, is to go for one of creatures like Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Angel of Despair.

I'm by no means an expert, but i hope any of this is helpful.

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Very helpful. I was running four studies and three breakthough, But I was kinda trying to go for balls out combo with the deck. The extra studies do add alot of consistency, but I like having the extra ichorid to ensure i can cast dread return and the 3 dr are there to make sure i get to cast it twice (to win with flayer) But thank you for the sb buddy I appriciate it very much. I was thinking about ghouls so I could side out the combo and go for a grindy kinda match so thats def worth consideration. Is ley line the best call there? The claims I get and that cards good, but the leylines would mainly be for the mirror? or decks that run tarmgoyf? or just try to recur anything? What are dredges worst match ups in your opinion? Cause thats what I want to worry about.


Edit: ANother concern of mine with leyline is that the deck already has to mulligan alot, is it worth the extra mulls to run it?

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Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt

Is ley line the best call there? The claims I get and that cards good, but the leylines would mainly be for the mirror? or decks that run tarmgoyf? or just try to recur anything? What are dredges worst match ups in your opinion? Cause thats what I want to worry about.
Edit: ANother concern of mine with leyline is that the deck already has to mulligan alot, is it worth the extra mulls to run it?

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Leyline is for the mirror, and Reanimator.

Tarmogoyf isn't such a huge problem, you'll want to be winning before he's an issue. Especially with your Dread Return package.

I'm still pretty new to Dredge myself, but the bad matchups seem to be other fast combo decks, Show & Tell, UW with Rest in Peace main.

Maverick, BUG, etc that have Ooze and DRS maindeck aren't as big a problem unless you go all in on a single Dredger that gets removed.

As far as Leyline and mulligans, i can't speak to that sorry, hopefully someone else can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ween

Leyline is for the mirror, and Reanimator.

Tarmogoyf isn't such a huge problem, you'll want to be winning before he's an issue. Especially with your Dread Return package.

I'm still pretty new to Dredge myself, but the bad matchups seem to be other fast combo decks, Show & Tell, UW with Rest in Peace main.

Maverick, BUG, etc that have Ooze and DRS maindeck aren't as big a problem unless you go all in on a single Dredger that gets removed.

As far as Leyline and mulligans, i can't speak to that sorry, hopefully someone else can.

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Thank you very much for the reply that makes things a bit more clear. I'll wait till somebody clears up the ley line deal, but but I was thinking maybe coffin purge, scene it really wouldn't interfere with "the plan" and I would be siding in lands anyway. But if that's not enough, what about farie macabre or whatever. It certainly seems like she ain't no hoe and Ichoroid can eat her. I don't know I guess that's why I'm Askin lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ween

Leyline is for the mirror, and Reanimator.

Tarmogoyf isn't such a huge problem, you'll want to be winning before he's an issue. Especially with your Dread Return package.

I'm still pretty new to Dredge myself, but the bad matchups seem to be other fast combo decks, Show & Tell, UW with Rest in Peace main.

Maverick, BUG, etc that have Ooze and DRS maindeck aren't as big a problem unless you go all in on a single Dredger that gets removed.

As far as Leyline and mulligans, i can't speak to that sorry, hopefully someone else can.

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Actually, Show & Tell is a really good matchup. They offer no disruption other than permission (which this deck really ignores), and they pretty much die to Cabal Therapy.

Another point: People are really not playing that much Graveyard Hate in their sideboard, due to Deathrite Shaman dominance. I think Dredge can be well positioned in the current meta, if one knows how to pilot it.

@SquirtMcGirt

My list:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

I can't play Dredge without 4 Cabal Therapies main. This card is what makes the deck win, actually.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Actually, Show & Tell is a really good matchup. They offer no disruption other than permission (which this deck really ignores), and they pretty much die to Cabal Therapy.

Another point: People are really not playing that much Graveyard Hate in their sideboard, due to Deathrite Shaman dominance. I think Dredge can be well positioned in the current meta, if one knows how to pilot it.

@SquirtMcGirt

My list:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

I can't play Dredge without 4 Cabal Therapies main. This card is what makes the deck win, actually.

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You know, I was playing with just 1 Dr main and no target other than troll. I didn't have a win now card, but it really felt like it didn't need it. I just had a buddy who nabbed me a flayer and a gristle brand and was like sweet. It is nice winning the turn you go nuts. Maybe sideboard insta kill? For matches where winning now matters? Like combo and such. Firestorm looks sexy though.

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Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt

ANother concern of mine with leyline is that the deck already has to mulligan alot, is it worth the extra mulls to run it?

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The problem with Dredge is that most cards behave to Dredge like Leylines. You need them in your starting seven because you will not "draw" cards normally in general.

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Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt

Thank you very much for the reply that makes things a bit more clear. I'll wait till somebody clears up the ley line deal, but but I was thinking maybe coffin purge, scene it really wouldn't interfere with "the plan" and I would be siding in lands anyway. But if that's not enough, what about farie macabre or whatever. It certainly seems like she ain't no hoe and Ichoroid can eat her. I don't know I guess that's why I'm Askin lol.

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Some people used Faerie Macabre. But you also need to mull for them like you mull for Leylines.
Coffin Purge may be cast from the graveyard, but is likely to get countered by Reanimator and unlikely to stop opposing Dredge decks, while Leyline must be answered by them.

In my meta however Dredge and Reanimator are on the decline. We have Jund, Junk, Stoneblade, BUG, Canadian and Storm here. So the Leyline slot would most likely go to Firestorm I think. The slot would be wasted by improving the Storm matchup I think.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I can't play Dredge without 4 Cabal Therapies main. This card is what makes the deck win, actually.

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I have to agree here. Therapy is one of the single best cards in Dredge and I would never cut one of them. If you really need to go down to 3 in your MD you should consider 1 slot in your sideboard for the 4th Therapy...but then again I would board it in every matchup :-)

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Originally Posted by ween

I think msot people would advocate for dropping to 2 Dread Return and maxing out on the full 4 Careful Study. Possibly cutting a Breakthrough to achieve this?

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Study and Looting should be maxed out. They help you in games 2/3 to dig for antihate against cards like Cage oder Leyline. They also do something on their own, while Breakthrough needs a discard outlet to be really useful. Breakthrough also gets boardet out in grindgames, while Looting and Study stays if I remember my boarding plans correctly.

I am playing the Quadlazer Dredge from the OP for reference -1 Citadel +1 Paradise. I switched to Dread Return and Targets from time to time because I liked the comboish feeling. But I haven't done so for about a 3/4 year.

Another Dredge deck that top8'ed a bigger event here was this (if you don't want to give up DR entirely):


Deck: 5. Andreas Müller, LED-Dredge http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

//Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

//Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below

//Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return

//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Breakthrough

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Show Deckstats


Greetings Chris

Hi everyone!
I'm preparing for a quite big tournament (60-70 people) with my favourite deck: dredge, of course!
Now I'm running a quadlazer list, but I would really like to win with a comboish version with Flayer + DR. The problem is that DRS is the card right now, and I really fear an activation in response to DR. And, main problem, I don't like at all mulliganing caused by lack of nuts in the opening seven. I don't want any DR o Flayer in my opening hand. So, that's why I'm still into the Quadlazer list, even if it can finish the match slower that DR-Flayer lists.
What I would like to ask you is only about sideboard composition and how to play some match-ups.

That's my sideboard:
4 firestorm
4 nature's claim
2 dread return
1 griselbrand
2 tarnished citadel
2 memory's journey

My meta is composed mainly by BUG, Esper/UWr Stoneblade, Miracles (rip-helm and classic), Maverick (classic and with black), Canadian and some Goblins.
By now I went better with DRs + Griselbrand than Ashen Ghoul, because, even if I can find them in my opening hand, the big Demon is way too better than Ghouls, he is big, gains life, lets me flip my deck and can do something in response to swords to plowshares. Also, Griselbrand can help me abuse Firestorm in some match-ups like Goblins or Elves. First question, do you think is [-2 DR -1 Grisel--> +2 ashen ghoul + 1 ray of revelation/a.grudge/ingot chewer] a better way? Do you think that with the presence of DRS having a target in grave could be a mistake? Let me know!

I think I don't need to explain Journey: it's simply too good vs Miracles to shuffle away Terminus and other stuff! It also can be useful in mirror, or against Surgical.
Then, I would like to ask you how to efficiently combat Rest in Peace. I tried exploding trying to strip their hand, but they still have brainstorms and sensei's top to find RIP. Anyway if I can make a solid board position I am quite safe of RIP too, but Terminus is still a card.. So I can board in Nature's Claim, and try to slow play until they show RIP, but their few counters are perfect to get rid of my Claims. Then I thought to Wispmare, but I think it could be effective only as a 3-of in the board, and I don't have that space. Let me know how do you beat Miracles, because I found it a very though MU.
That's all for now, thanks to everyone!

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

In my meta however Dredge and Reanimator are on the decline. We have Jund, Junk, Stoneblade, BUG, Canadian and Storm here. So the Leyline slot would most likely go to Firestorm I think. The slot would be wasted by improving the Storm matchup I think.

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Reanimator is pretty much non existent right now. So, Leylines are kind of a waste for only one matchup, the mirror.

I sort of hate Firestorm, but I can't really think of a better sideboard card either. Those last four slots could probably be anything at the moment. Maybe a couple Dread Returns and a couple targets to reanimate? I am not sure what those cards should be but Leylines do seem like a waste at the moment.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Reanimator is pretty much non existent right now. So, Leylines are kind of a waste for only one matchup, the mirror.

I sort of hate Firestorm, but I can't really think of a better sideboard card either. Those last four slots could probably be anything at the moment. Maybe a couple Dread Returns and a couple targets to reanimate? I am not sure what those cards should be but Leylines do seem like a waste at the moment.

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Firestorm is not that bad. It reads "Wrath of God + you win the game" :-) But I do not think it is needed. It was nice against Merfolk and in times of Mental Misstep as uncouterable discard outlet...but thats it. I just can't imagine other cards for the Dredge sideboard that would be useful today.

I do not think targets would be useful with everyone playing Deathrite Shaman. You can easily remove the one and only target with DRS while removing one Ichorid does not hurt that much. Elesh Norn might be a wreckining ball to the top decks though ^^

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

Let me know how do you beat Miracles, because I found it a very though MU.

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I didn't play Dredge on bigger tournaments for a while now...I think GP Gent was the last time. Back there most UW Miracle decks used Surgical Extraction if I remember correctly. I probably boardet something like this:

-4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-1 Ichorid
-1 Breakthrough
+3 lands
+3 Ashen Ghoul

You could slowroll them pretty easy back then by holding back your threats. Good targets for Cabal Therapy were Brainstorm, Surgical Extraction and Swords to Plowshares or Top on the play turn 1, though this depends highly on boardstates etc...

I have no idea if they use RiP over Surgical Extraction now. If they do you might want boarding something like this:

-4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Breakthrough
+4 Nature’s Claim
+3 lands

This is the same way I would board against Helm Combo I think. Our Matchup versus Helm Combo might be much worse though.

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

First question, do you think is [-2 DR -1 Grisel--> +2 ashen ghoul + 1 ray of revelation/a.grudge/ingot chewer] a better way? Do you think that with the presence of DRS having a target in grave could be a mistake? Let me know!

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As I stated above I would not use targets because DRS can remove them easily. One removed Griselbrand might be one removed Ichorid less...but I think Ghouls are just better to diversify your threats against Surgical Extractions. When using Ghouls I would run the third rainbowland. The additional mana is helpful in using your Claims too.

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

So, that's why I'm still into the Quadlazer list, even if it can finish the match slower that DR-Flayer lists.

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It is not that much slower I think. I played with and without DR. To play DR + targets you need to cut really good cards which is wrong in my opinion. And for the speed advantage: To kill someone with Flayer you generally need to flip a good chunk of you deck. In this situation you can rip their most relevant cards of their hands while generating zombies in the process with Ichorid already lurking in the grave. In most cases it is not relevant if you pass the turn at this point or not, because you have virtually won.

I like Flayer for giving you reach against prison cards though. But in my opinion Quadlaser is just more consistant and has the better grinding game.

Greetings Chris

do I have too announce who I am targeting with cabal therapy as I cast it or as its resolving?

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Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt

do I have too announce who I am targeting with cabal therapy as I cast it or as its resolving?

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You choose which player is going to be targeted on casting, and you only name the card you want them to discard after it resolves.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

You choose which player is going to be targeted on casting, and you only name the card you want them to discard after it resolves.

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Thank you, Thank you very much.

Hey guys! After proxying up some decks with death rite shaman and some other decks and testing them with a friend, I've settled on this list.
4 coliseum
4 city
4 gemstone

4 led
4 therapy
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
1 dread return
4 bridge

4 putrid imp
4 narco
4 ichorid
1 gristlebrand/sun titan
3 thug
4 stinky
4 troll

But I'm having trouble deciding which dude to run. Titan or gristlebrand? The latter can be eaten by ichorid but the former is really good too. To me it seems gristlebrand can be a bit too much sometimes but the life link is nice. The titan brings back led or critters. What do you guys think?

Oh for my sb
4 leyline
4 claim
1 ancient grudge
1 dakmor salvage
1 sun titan/undiscovered paradise
1 elesh norn grand cenobite
1 dread return

If I run titan main I will run the extra land in the sb. Any thoughts? I got the main jist of my list from the posts above (I see now why therapy is so important) and I really like this "almost quad lazer" list (that's what I decided it's called lol) I didn't get a chance to test firestorm out but that could be good in a few match ups I think. I'll have to check it out.

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Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt

Hey guys! After proxying up some decks with death rite shaman and some other decks and testing them with a friend, I've settled on this list.
4 coliseum
4 city
4 gemstone

4 led
4 therapy
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
1 dread return
4 bridge

4 putrid imp
4 narco
4 ichorid
1 gristlebrand/sun titan
3 thug
4 stinky
4 troll

But I'm having trouble deciding which dude to run. Titan or gristlebrand? The latter can be eaten by ichorid but the former is really good too. To me it seems gristlebrand can be a bit too much sometimes but the life link is nice. The titan brings back led or critters. What do you guys think?

Oh for my sb
4 leyline
4 claim
1 ancient grudge
1 dakmor salvage
1 sun titan/undiscovered paradise
1 elesh norn grand cenobite
1 dread return

If I run titan main I will run the extra land in the sb. Any thoughts? I got the main jist of my list from the posts above (I see now why therapy is so important) and I really like this "almost quad lazer" list (that's what I decided it's called lol) I didn't get a chance to test firestorm out but that could be good in a few match ups I think. I'll have to check it out.

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Griselbrand is better than Sun Titan. The ability to flip your deck and win is awesome. But if you're running only 1 Dread Return, you shouldn't run a target. I think 2 is the mininum number for Dread Returns before adding targets for it.

@Thread

Since Reanimator and Lands.dec are struggling against Deathrite Shaman (more than we are), I think Sideboard Leylines are not necessary in today's meta. Firestorm is a nice replacement for it and it kills the god damned creature, and can ping in for damage. Iona is not at it's best, because every deck now has three colors. But she's still fine against combo (well, better than Hypnotist).

My list is the same as the one I posted before, with a little change:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus (flex-slot)

I took out Ray of Revelation because I just haven't cast it in years. Woodfall Primus reminds me of the good old LED Dredge times (without Faithless Looting), where he was my beloved target to screw Survival of the Fittest & Co.

Took out Undiscovered Paradise from maindeck because I've had enough awkward situations with Cephalid Coliseum. I knew that would happen eventually.

Deck has been running smoothly, you should give it a try.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Griselbrand is better than Sun Titan. The ability to flip your deck and win is awesome. But if you're running only 1 Dread Return, you shouldn't run a target. I think 2 is the mininum number for Dread Returns before adding targets for it.

@Thread

Since Reanimator and Lands.dec are struggling against Deathrite Shaman (more than we are), I think Sideboard Leylines are not necessary in today's meta. Firestorm is a nice replacement for it and it kills the god damned creature, and can ping in for damage. Iona is not at it's best, because every deck now has three colors. But she's still fine against combo (well, better than Hypnotist).

My list is the same as the one I posted before, with a little change:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus (flex-slot)

I took out Ray of Revelation because I just haven't cast it in years. Woodfall Primus reminds me of the good old LED Dredge times (without Faithless Looting), where he was my beloved target to screw Survival of the Fittest & Co.

Took out Undiscovered Paradise from maindeck because I've had enough awkward situations with Cephalid Coliseum. I knew that would happen eventually.

Deck has been running smoothly, you should give it a try.

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Yeah I was thinking about another dr main but honestly I like 4 ichorid too much, 4 putrid imp is epic as well. ive tried running just 2 thug but it doesnt feel like enough. I like my misers dr package. If i get brand with out the dr, he feeds ichorid, If i get the dr without brand, I get troll, Ive even brought back an ichorid just to make more zombies as well. I have noticed an astonishing lack of graveyard hate in top eight decklists places so maybe losing the leylines is a good call. firestorms good for alot of reasons. I really havent had alot of trouble with land, so the extra 1s I have put in the sb for ensuring I can cast claim. What about memorys journey? That card seems really good. could save bridges and narcos or dredgers...

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Originally Posted by SquirtMcGirt

Yeah I was thinking about another dr main but honestly I like 4 ichorid too much, 4 putrid imp is epic as well. ive tried running just 2 thug but it doesnt feel like enough. I like my misers dr package. If i get brand with out the dr, he feeds ichorid, If i get the dr without brand, I get troll, Ive even brought back an ichorid just to make more zombies as well. I have noticed an astonishing lack of graveyard hate in top eight decklists places so maybe losing the leylines is a good call. firestorms good for alot of reasons. I really havent had alot of trouble with land, so the extra 1s I have put in the sb for ensuring I can cast claim. What about memorys journey? That card seems really good. could save bridges and narcos or dredgers...

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I simply hate Memory's Journey and Coffin Purge. 95% of the time you combo out with draw spells you're tapped out. And people just won't wait a turn before using their Surgical Extraction, they'll just exile the hell out of your business and you won't be able to do anything. Dredge has a really tight mana, and can't afford to leave mana open to do those tricks.

Another utility for those cards is against Reanimator, but this deck is already pretty much dead on the field. It's really lackluster in the mirror, and has no other applications than "sometimes" saving you from Extraction.

If you want to play arround Surgical Extraction, play proactive with Nether Shadows or Ashen Ghouls, or even a broad Dread Return option.