[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

@Chaam: I'm with Kobe here. 3x Dark Confidant should be enough.
I would suggest a Disfigure, a 3rd Spell Pierce or a 19th land in that slot.

For the sideboard: This looks solid.
I would probably remove the Loam, maybe also the Clique.
Also I like to run at least one Envelop, in a list with no discard preferably two.
Other cards to consider: Diabolic Edict or a third Charm.

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@Gazoline: You really want 2x Bayou / 1x Tropical when you play Hymns.
If you don't own a 9th UBG fetch you could also run the classic 8x fetch 4x Sea 2x Bayou 2x Trop base.
Since you chose True-Name, you probably do want 20 lands, because you'll be needing both UU and BB.
First card to cut if you want to add that land is of course the 2nd Disfigure.
Last remark on the main deck: depending on your meta you may want to main deck a Liliana or Sylvan Library.

For the sideboard, I'd suggest something like this:
3 Spell Pierce / Envelop / Flusterstorm
1-2 Disfigure
1 Murderous Cut (your only Delve spell, so should be okay)
2 Marsh Casualties (you want to get these - just order them online, they are quite cheap)
1 Krosan Grip (I like this better than Pulse because it can get rid of Blood Moon, Batterskull)
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle (this is for Miracles, Sneak Attack, maybe recurring Wastelands)
1 Sylvan Library
1-2 Liliana of the Veil /15

Other cards to consider:
- Vendilion Clique (good against any combo, Miracles, useful against decks where you have many bad cards)
- Dark Confidant (good against Miracles, any deck where you have lots to board out)
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor (some play one of these on side - it's probably fine but I never tried it)

Most depends on what you expect to face. Here in the Netherlands combo is very prevalent.
If you expect to face more Jund, Elves, Death&Taxes, you might want to run more removal or sweepers.
If Miracles is my far the most dominant, you need Confidant, Sylvan, Envelop, Needles.
Against Burn you want to max out on Disfigures, Hymns and add Flusterstorms and so on.
If Dredge and Reanimator are popular,m you should be fine, but a case could be made for a third dedicated hate piece.

Hope this helps. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

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@Gazoline: You really want 2x Bayou / 1x Tropical when you play Hymns.
If you don't own a 9th UBG fetch you could also run the classic 8x fetch 4x Sea 2x Bayou 2x Trop base.
Since you chose True-Name, you probably do want 20 lands, because you'll be needing both UU and BB.
First card to cut if you want to add that land is of course the 2nd Disfigure.
Last remark on the main deck: depending on your meta you may want to main deck a Liliana or Sylvan Library.

For the sideboard, I'd suggest something like this:
3 Spell Pierce / Envelop / Flusterstorm
1-2 Disfigure
1 Murderous Cut (your only Delve spell, so should be okay)
2 Marsh Casualties (you want to get these - just order them online, they are quite cheap)
1 Krosan Grip (I like this better than Pulse because it can get rid of Blood Moon, Batterskull)
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle (this is for Miracles, Sneak Attack, maybe recurring Wastelands)
1 Sylvan Library
1-2 Liliana of the Veil /15

Other cards to consider:
- Vendilion Clique (good against any combo, Miracles, useful against decks where you have many bad cards)
- Dark Confidant (good against Miracles, any deck where you have lots to board out)
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor (some play one of these on side - it's probably fine but I never tried it)

Most depends on what you expect to face. Here in the Netherlands combo is very prevalent.
If you expect to face more Jund, Elves, Death&Taxes, you might want to run more removal or sweepers.
If Miracles is my far the most dominant, you need Confidant, Sylvan, Envelop, Needles.
Against Burn you want to max out on Disfigures, Hymns and add Flusterstorms and so on.
If Dredge and Reanimator are popular,m you should be fine, but a case could be made for a third dedicated hate piece.

Hope this helps. :smile:

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Wow! Thanks alot, very much appriciated!
i will surely take all that into consideration and adapt!

If i cut one disfigure for one more land, what second cut would you do to fit a liliana or a sylvan? =)

Krosan grip sure is a nice card and it will be in my sideboard for sure=) I was just about to ask how it would help me against bloodmoon, but i just rememberd i can respond and float a green mana when they play it^^

My meta is some delver decks like rug and 4c, death n taxes, jund, sneakntell/omnitell, elves, shardless, miracles, aggro loam that i come to think of =)

/Gaz

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Originally Posted by Gazoline

Wow! Thanks alot, very much appriciated!
i will surely take all that into consideration and adapt!

If i cut one disfigure for one more land, what second cut would you do to fit a liliana or a sylvan? =)

Krosan grip sure is a nice card and it will be in my sideboard for sure=) I was just about to ask how it would help me against bloodmoon, but i just rememberd i can respond and float a green mana when they play it^^

My meta is some delver decks like rug and 4c, death n taxes, jund, sneakntell/omnitell, elves, shardless, miracles, aggro loam that i come to think of =)

/Gaz

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If that is your meta, you shouldn't play bug.

That meta seems good with ANT/TES

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

If that is your meta, you shouldn't play bug.

That meta seems good with ANT/TES

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dont have any of those cards tho XD wanna start playing bug=)

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Originally Posted by Gazoline

Wow! Thanks alot, very much appriciated!
i will surely take all that into consideration and adapt!

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No problem. That's why we are active on a forum, right? :wink:

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Originally Posted by Gazoline

If i cut one disfigure for one more land, what second cut would you do to fit a liliana or a sylvan? =)

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The main deck has very few flex slots. Disfigure, Thoughtseize, the 13th and 14th creature and the 20th land are the ones you can toy with. The basis for this version is usually 4x Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, Daze, Decay, Hymn, Delver, Deathrite, Goyf, 19 lands. This leaves us 5 flexible slots. You chose to replace a Hymn with a Thoughtseize, which I understand because it improves the mana curve. I usually still run the full set of Hymns though. Free wins are free. :tongue:

Cards that you can play in the flex slots are:
1 additional (fetch) land
1-2 additional creatures (options: Stalker, Nemesis, Confidant, Clique, Angler, Tasigur - all have their merits)
1-2 Thoughtseize
1-2 Disfigure / Dismember
1-2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

If you want to stick with the 3x Hymn 2x Thoughtseize package, you have 4 slots.
If you want True-Name Nemesis, you probably want the 20th land also.
This leaves us with the last Disfigure as a slots to toy around with.
This one slot is probably not going to make a big difference, but this could be Lily or Sylvan if you want.

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Originally Posted by Gazoline

Krosan grip sure is a nice card and it will be in my sideboard for sure=) I was just about to ask how it would help me against bloodmoon, but i just rememberd i can respond and float a green mana when they play it^^

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Not just that. Casting Decay, Pulse or Charm from Deathrites alone is really hard. Krosan Grip costs just one coloured mana, so it's also a lot easier to cast after Blood Moon has resolved. But yeah, tapping for mana, letting the Moon resolve and then casting Grip afterwards also works. Pulse can't do that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gazoline

My meta is some delver decks like rug and 4c, death n taxes, jund, sneakntell/omnitell, elves, shardless, miracles, aggro loam that i come to think of =)

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Responding to Kobe's remark here: BUG is great fun to play and you have a chance in almost any given meta. But most importantly: BUG is a deck that teaches you to play well. What cards matter, what cards don't? How should I sequence my plays in the early turns? When should I be the aggressive player, when the controllish one? Playing this deck a lot helps you get better, and it doesn't get boring all that quickly. Whatever the meta, I would hardly ever advise against playing this deck.

I see quite a number of fair decks in your post. In this meta I'd probably play Disfigure main, but maybe even 2x Lily on side. Also you probably need a Sylvan Library on side for Shardless and Miracles. If Elves and D&T are really big, you could consider a Darkblast on side. That card can be neat. If no-one ever plays Dredge or Reanimator, you could try to cut the Cage from the board, allowing you to add more stuff against the tougher matchups (especially Shardless and Jund can be a nuisance, but Elves, D&T and Miracles are also probably around 50/50 if both players play more or less correctly). Kobe's not wrong. This meta seems tough for BUG. Still, there's fun to be had and with a properly tuned sideboard and tight play, you could win a prize here and there. :smile:

EDIT: Forgot one option to tune the main deck. Some people choose to run only 3x Force of Will in the main deck. In the Netherlands, with all the combo running around here, this would of course be suicide, but in your meta this idea could actually make quite a bit of sense. Maybe there's your slot for the main deck Liliana. Move one FoW to the side to board in when needed. This leaves us with:

Main:
4x Sea, 2x Bayou, 1-2x Trop, 8-9x Fetch, 4x Wasteland (20)
4x Delver, 4x Deathrite, 4x Goyf, 2x Nemesis (14)
4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 4x Daze, 3x FoW, 3x Hymn, 2x Seize, 4x Decay, 1x Disfigure, 1x Liliana (26)

Side (something like this):
1x FoW, 2x Envelop, 2x Pithing Needle
2x Disfigure, 3x Golgari Charm, 1x Krosan Grip
1x Surgical Extraction, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Liliana of the Veil

I chose Envelop here, because: hard counter for Terminus, Entreat, S&T, Zenith, Natural Order, some Shardless stuff. The second Sylvan should also help beat grindy matches like Shardless and Miracles. Board out Dazes here. The 3x Charm is there to keep Elves and D&T in check. Also useful to regenerate your guys or to destroy enchantments when needed. Some S&T decks side in Leyline of Sanctity, messing up your discard and Liliana plan, so you can use these to counter that plan as well. Watch out for killing your own TNN though, when using the sweeper version.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

No problem. That's why we are active on a forum, right? :wink:


The main deck has very few flex slots. Disfigure, Thoughtseize, the 13th and 14th creature and the 20th land are the ones you can toy with. The basis for this version is usually 4x Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, Daze, Decay, Hymn, Delver, Deathrite, Goyf, 19 lands. This leaves us 5 flexible slots. You chose to replace a Hymn with a Thoughtseize, which I understand because it improves the mana curve. I usually still run the full set of Hymns though. Free wins are free. :tongue:

Cards that you can play in the flex slots are:
1 additional (fetch) land
1-2 additional creatures (options: Stalker, Nemesis, Confidant, Clique, Angler, Tasigur - all have their merits)
1-2 Thoughtseize
1-2 Disfigure / Dismember
1-2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

If you want to stick with the 3x Hymn 2x Thoughtseize package, you have 4 slots.
If you want True-Name Nemesis, you probably want the 20th land also.
This leaves us with the last Disfigure as a slots to toy around with.
This one slot is probably not going to make a big difference, but this could be Lily or Sylvan if you want.


Not just that. Casting Decay, Pulse or Charm from Deathrites alone is really hard. Krosan Grip costs just one coloured mana, so it's also a lot easier to cast after Blood Moon has resolved. But yeah, tapping for mana, letting the Moon resolve and then casting Grip afterwards also works. Pulse can't do that.


Responding to Kobe's remark here: BUG is great fun to play and you have a chance in almost any given meta. But most importantly: BUG is a deck that teaches you to play well. What cards matter, what cards don't? How should I sequence my plays in the early turns? When should I be the aggressive player, when the controllish one? Playing this deck a lot helps you get better, and it doesn't get boring all that quickly. Whatever the meta, I would hardly ever advise against playing this deck.

I see quite a number of fair decks in your post. In this meta I'd probably play Disfigure main, but maybe even 2x Lily on side. Also you probably need a Sylvan Library on side for Shardless and Miracles. If Elves and D&T are really big, you could consider a Darkblast on side. That card can be neat. If no-one ever plays Dredge or Reanimator, you could try to cut the Cage from the board, allowing you to add more stuff against the tougher matchups (especially Shardless and Jund can be a nuisance, but Elves, D&T and Miracles are also probably around 50/50 if both players play more or less correctly). Kobe's not wrong. This meta seems tough for BUG. Still, there's fun to be had and with a properly tuned sideboard and tight play, you could win a prize here and there. :smile:

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Bug is fun. But if you are playing to win, Bug wouldn't be the best choice here.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Bug is fun. But if you are playing to win, Bug wouldn't be the best choice here.

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True.

Small note: I made a massive edit to my post after Kobe responded. :eyebrow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Bug is fun. But if you are playing to win, Bug wouldn't be the best choice here.

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Atm im still in the learning to play and playing for fun stage. I appriciate your comment tho because i still find it hard to read the meta and trying to find what path would be the best/smartest. I think im still occupied trying to learn the decks and how the format works ^^

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

No problem. That's why we are active on a forum, right? :wink:


Not just that. Casting Decay, Pulse or Charm from Deathrites alone is really hard. Krosan Grip costs just one coloured mana, so it's also a lot easier to cast after Blood Moon has resolved. But yeah, tapping for mana, letting the Moon resolve and then casting Grip afterwards also works. Pulse can't do that.

EDIT: Forgot one option to tune the main deck. Some people choose to run only 3x Force of Will in the main deck. In the Netherlands, with all the combo running around here, this would of course be suicide, but in your meta this idea could actually make quite a bit of sense. Maybe there's your slot for the main deck Liliana. Move one FoW to the side to board in when needed. This leaves us with:

Main:
4x Sea, 2x Bayou, 1-2x Trop, 8-9x Fetch, 4x Wasteland (20)
4x Delver, 4x Deathrite, 4x Goyf, 2x Nemesis (14)
4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 4x Daze, 3x FoW, 3x Hymn, 2x Seize, 4x Decay, 1x Disfigure, 1x Liliana (26)

Side (something like this):
1x FoW, 2x Envelop, 2x Pithing Needle
2x Disfigure, 3x Golgari Charm, 1x Krosan Grip
1x Surgical Extraction, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Liliana of the Veil

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Haha, yeah i guess thats why we´re active! =) Oh yeah i see your point, thanks! im probably gonna try the 3FoW part, my first list were 3 FoW but felt a bit uneasy with it. But probably gonna play around with it to see if i miss the 4th one in MB before giving it a real verdict ^^

Once again thank you Asthereal for all the info and thank you KobeBryan for your comments aswell!
Ill post a report on how it went after my first gameday, hopefully last of january(in a completely new meta where i have no idea! but will probably make some changes for that)but before that..... Trainingtime! "engage rocky stairs music and winning pose" ;)

@Gazoline: I play almost the same list as you posted first.
If you play 2 True-Name Nemesis and 3 Hymn 2 Thoughtseize (ie. not 4 Hymns) I found myself 2 Tropical Island 1 Bayou working better for me instead of 2 Bayou and 1 Tropical Island, but it does not matter much.
If you play against Loam, RUG or even 4c Delver with Wastelands, fetching for Bayou as your second land (in order to play Hymn) often means, that you are dead meat unless you have other "blue" land in hand. It also help a little to play around Submerge thanks to Daze returning Trop which is nice trick.
Although one might consider to play 9 fetches for sure (ie. 20 lands) as Asthereal proposed, along with his other suggestions.


Also I opt for Murderous Cut main as the only 1 delve spell in place of Disfigure as it answers Anglers/Tasigurs and such, but those are not present in meta you described though.

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Originally Posted by mosaic

@Gazoline: I play almost the same list as you posted first.
If you play 2 True-Name Nemesis and 3 Hymn 2 Thoughtseize (ie. not 4 Hymns) I found myself 2 Tropical Island 1 Bayou working better for me instead of 2 Bayou and 1 Tropical Island, but it does not matter much.
If you play against Loam, RUG or even 4c Delver with Wastelands, fetching for Bayou as your second land (in order to play Hymn) often means, that you are dead meat unless you have other "blue" land in hand. It also help a little to play around Submerge thanks to Daze returning Trop which is nice trick.
Although one might consider to play 9 fetches for sure (ie. 20 lands) as Asthereal proposed, along with his other suggestions.


Also I opt for Murderous Cut main as the only 1 delve spell in place of Disfigure as it answers Anglers/Tasigurs and such, but those are not present in meta you described though.

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Alright, i will have try it myself then and see what i like most with the bayou/trop mix. Untill i get my mistys im gonna run 8 fetch 4ug 2trop 2 bayou =)
If meta changes ill remember your thoughts about Murderous Cut!

Thanks for sharing your thought of my list!

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by mosaic

If you play 2 True-Name Nemesis and 3 Hymn 2 Thoughtseize (ie. not 4 Hymns) I found myself 2 Tropical Island 1 Bayou working better for me instead of 2 Bayou and 1 Tropical Island, but it does not matter much.

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This is very curious. You still play one more BB card than UU, and the BB card in question is one you want to play early game, where the UU card is one you like to play midgame. So you should normally need a Bayou before you need a Tropical Island. Can you motivate your statement with realistic game situations and their likeliness to occur? Because simply looking at the dry facts gives me the idea that your statement is simply wrong.

I played in a Legacy for duals event today with just shy of 130 players. Thought I'd give a quick tournament report, even though I didn't do too well.
This is the list I played:

3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforst
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 True Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
1 Disfigure

1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Envelop
1 Darkblast
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will
2 Submerge

Round 1 vs Lands (Lose 0-2)
I'm new to this deck, and hadn't tested this matchup, I knew what to look out for, though. Deathrite Shaman is obviously gas here, and I was able to eat some key lands and a Life From the Loam, but it wasn't enough.

Round 2 vs Deathblade (Win 2-1)
This matchup was mostly one of us playing a threat followed by the other player removing it, since we both have Abrupt Decays and lots of other removal. I steal game 1 on the back of True Name Nemesis, and game 3 I curve Deathrite into Wasteland and Sylvan Library on turn 2. Library pulls me very far ahead.

Round 3 vs ANT (Lose 0-2)
Game one I open up with a Thoughtseize, his hand is 2 lands, 2 Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond (I take note it doesn't do anything other than make mana). However my hand contains Delver, Stifle, 2 Abrupt Decay and Disfigure. I play Delver on my second turn, holding up Stifle, but my other 3 cards are dead, and soon so am I.
Game 3 I keep a loose hand with Fetches, Dark Confidant, Daze, Stifle and Wasteland. I wish I had cantrips or counters, but I gamble and it doesn't pay off. I draw two consecutive Tarmogoyfs and can't interact fast enough.

Round 4 vs U/G Cloudpost (Win 2-0)
This was never really much of a game, I had Delver into Delver and Deathrite hitting for 8 a turn with Daze and Wasteland backup.
Game two was not much different, a turn 1 Deathrite led to a turn 2 Wasteland followed by Sylvan Library (Same opening I had in round 2, game 3, and the most powerful-feeling thing I did all day).

Round 5 vs Burn (Lose 0-2)
I see a hand with Trop, Sea, Delver, Bob, Waste, Waste, Thoughtseize. Snap keep. I play turn 1 Trop, Delver. My opponent opens Mountain, Lightning Bolt Delver. My opponent is on mono red burn and my hand is 2 Waste, Bob, Thoughtseize. I felt like I didn't have any options.
Game 2 I punt in a situation where I didn't read Sulfuric Vortex and try to gain life with Deathrite Shaman while I have Abrupt Decay in hand. Whoops.

Now at 2-3, I drop.

Overperformers -
Sylvan Library
Envelop

Underperformers -
I misplayed over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

This is very curious. You still play one more BB card than UU, and the BB card in question is one you want to play early game, where the UU card is one you like to play midgame. So you should normally need a Bayou before you need a Tropical Island. Can you motivate your statement with realistic game situations and their likeliness to occur? Because simply looking at the dry facts gives me the idea that your statement is simply wrong.

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Sorry for late reply.
When I play against wasteland deck (few were mentioned in my previous post) I do not go for Bayou nor Tropical Island, but second Undereground Sea as my second land. I do not need Bayou to cast BB spell do I? Why would I want green on second turn against those decks if my intention is to play BB spell?
By fetching for Bayou I would open myself to Wasteland ruining my day especially against RUG/4c Delver type decks. With 4x Brainstorm and 4x Ponders in the deck, I take my chances to find another land, on the other hand, with Bayou, I throw away that option (Daze also stop working). Even with Shaman in play on turn 1, it is risky, if he gets bolted and then Waste scenario is back again, well and if Shaman lives, then the green source is not needed anyway.

So no, I do not usually fetch for any green source as my second land while playing against Wasteland decks and I think it is a mistake to do so, unless I have another land in hand or facing Blood Moon to resolve with Decay in hand etc. Dry fact .... sound almost like it is an absolute truth.
While playing against Wasteless deck, it actually doesnt matter much.

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Originally Posted by mosaic

Sorry for late reply.
When I play against wasteland deck (few were mentioned in my previous post) I do not go for Bayou nor Tropical Island, but second Undereground Sea as my second land. I do not need Bayou to cast BB spell do I? Why would I want green on second turn against those decks if my intention is to play BB spell?

By fetching for Bayou I would open myself to Wasteland ruining my day especially against RUG/4c Delver type decks. With 4x Brainstorm and 4x Ponders in the deck, I take my chances to find another land, on the other hand, with Bayou, I throw away that option (Daze also stop working). Even with Shaman in play on turn 1, it is risky, if he gets bolted and then Waste scenario is back again, well and if Shaman lives, then the green source is not needed anyway.

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Good point. If you usually fetch the second Sea first, it indeed makes less af a difference.

Still, I'm not completely sure whether it's an argument for 2x Tropical & 1x Bayou. With fetches you can get any land you want. It's mostly about what happens if you don't get to fetch - if you draw the duals naturally. You still usually need BB before UU, so I think it still makes a bit more sense to play 2x Bayou & 1x Tropical. Your argument for fetching 2x Sea first is actually a pretty strong argument in favour of 1x Bayou, 1x Tropical & +1 fetch. Of course that's somewhat dangerous. We probably want a third green land just in case. It might be worth testing though.

You are right, that it is not a proper argument for 2x Trop and 1x Bayou.
I agree that going to 6 color producing lands is risky and only two green sources are even more hazardous.
If it comes to not fetching lands ie. drawing them naturally, with Trop, I still get to play Brainstorms and Ponders, with active Daze. Combination of Trop+Wasteland - means, that the deck is still functional with cantrips, along with being more screwed by Choke :)

Don't get me wrong, I will never argue, that playing 2x Trops 1x Bayou is correct and 2x Bayou 1x Trop is wrong. In the post I stated "but it does not matter much", just that with this cards setup, I find it more to my liking.
Played myself with 2x Bayou and 1x Trop setup and was quite happy with, here.
If I would play 4x Hymns, I would go probably for 2x Bayou and 1x Trop.
I think both variants have their merits and neither is wrong per se.
The best is to try it for yourself, with list that Gazoline posted + fetch and Murderous Cut instead of 2x Disfigues.

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Originally Posted by mosaic

You are right, that it is not a proper argument for 2x Trop and 1x Bayou.
I agree that going to 6 color producing lands is risky and only two green sources are even more hazardous.
If it comes to not fetching lands ie. drawing them naturally, with Trop, I still get to play Brainstorms and Ponders, with active Daze. Combination of Trop+Wasteland - means, that the deck is still functional with cantrips, along with being more screwed by Choke :)

Don't get me wrong, I will never argue, that playing 2x Trops 1x Bayou is correct and 2x Bayou 1x Trop is wrong. In the post I stated "but it does not matter much", just that with this cards setup, I find it more to my liking.
Played myself with 2x Bayou and 1x Trop setup and was quite happy with, here.
If I would play 4x Hymns, I would go probably for 2x Bayou and 1x Trop.
I think both variants have their merits and neither is wrong per se.
The best is to try it for yourself, with list that Gazoline posted + fetch and Murderous Cut instead of 2x Disfigues.

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The focus on cantripping and always having Daze up instead of aggressively playing Hymn asap I guess is a matter of playing style. Maybe 2x Trop just suits your approach to the deck better and 2x Bayou works better for me because I tend to be as aggressive as possible with this deck. I tend to lose when I durdle around, and I win when I manage to hold on to the initiative. Who knows, maybe I play this deck all wrong. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

The focus on cantripping and always having Daze up instead of aggressively playing Hymn asap I guess is a matter of playing style. Maybe 2x Trop just suits your approach to the deck better and 2x Bayou works better for me because I tend to be as aggressive as possible with this deck. I tend to lose when I durdle around, and I win when I manage to hold on to the initiative. Who knows, maybe I play this deck all wrong. :cool:

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The beauty of magic is that you can just do whatever you like best :cool:

What are people leaning towards as far as the creature base these days in the more black-heavy version?

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

What are people leaning towards as far as the creature base these days in the more black-heavy version?

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Most I've seen was Dark Confidant or True-Name Nemesis.
Angler, Tasigur and Stalker still have their merits though.
Clique is usually played in the sideboard, if at all.

I am currently on the black heavy version (i.e., two Bayous, two Liliana of the Veil, four Hymn to Tourach) and my creature base is:
4X Deathrite Shaman
4X Delver of Secrets
4X Tarmogoyf
2X Dark Confidant

I have a singleton Vendilion Clique in the board.

The reason I am going with Dark Confidant is there is currently a lot of Miracles and Storm in my metagame. If that changes I would look into other options.

What would you guys say is the core of the deck? Trying to build my first legacy deck so why not start with one that plays nearly all the most expensive cards?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Dutch253

What would you guys say is the core of the deck? Trying to build my first legacy deck so why not start with one that plays nearly all the most expensive cards?!


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Asthereal made a good post on the previous page here that sums up what the core and flex cards are. Lot of good information there.

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Originally Posted by Xerlic

Asthereal made a good post on the previous page here that sums up what the core and flex cards are. Lot of good information there.

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Sorry! Just looked at page 1 then posted. Thanks!


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Originally Posted by Xerlic

Asthereal made a good post on the previous page here that sums up what the core and flex cards are. Lot of good information there.

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Someone also said on that page if you're playing to win don't play BUG. What's that all about? I thought the deck is solid?


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The deck is fine. Play it. I play all types of delver, this is my favorite, albeit I play the Stifle version. I dislike all-in tempo decks.

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Yeah, Kobe isn't the best source of insight for this deck. With Storm variants on the rise, Delver might be the best positioned BUG deck, and I have sweet tech for the Lands matchup.

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Originally Posted by Dutch253

Someone also said on that page if you're playing to win don't play BUG. What's that all about? I thought the deck is solid?

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That was a recommendation to one person in parcticular who has a somewhat hostile local meta to be playing Team America. Still, this deck can beat any deck, and it is very rewarding and fun to play, so I advocated against that particular recommendation regardless of an unfriendly meta.

PS. Thanks, Xerlic. :smile: My post is about the Hymn version. I'm not very familiar with the Stifle version.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Yeah, Kobe isn't the best source of insight for this deck. With Storm variants on the rise, Delver might be the best positioned BUG deck, and I have sweet tech for the Lands matchup.

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Please share! I have a number of Lands players at my LGS. I manage to win most times I play them, but it's always incredibly close and a little variance either side could sway it. The deck has been performing very well for me recently going 4-0, 4-0, and 3-1 last night at our weekly Legacy night (just losing to RUG, being on the draw is so rough if that deck has good draws).

My SBing plan for Lands is below. I understand taking out Stifle may seem unintuitive, but vs the combo it only buys you a turn and I feel like it's applications only arise when you're already losing. Reasoning for two decay otd is they're sometimes able to land a chalice/choke/sphere/whatever through the soft countermagic, on the play I'm banking on keeping Dazes and Pierces live for long enough to kill them.

OTP
-4 Decay
-3 Stifle
+2 Surgical
+2 Submerge
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Winter Orb

OTD
-2 Decay
-2 Daze
-3 Stifle
+2 Surgical
+2 Submerge
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Winter Orb

List for reference

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
8 blue fetch

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtsteize
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Dread of Night
1 Misdirection
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod

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Originally Posted by btm10

Yeah, Kobe isn't the best source of insight for this deck. With Storm variants on the rise, Delver might be the best positioned BUG deck, and I have sweet tech for the Lands matchup.

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At the time when i made that comment bug delver was not in a good position. You may not agree with me. But enhinjer and asthreal agreed at that time too.

Removed flames. Seriously, are you expecting to get away with this kind of behavior? This isn't 4chan. — Julian23

Hello!
I was the one with the hostile meta =)
i played BUG delver for my first time last saturday finished third! I met UR delver but with kiln fiend instead of delver and some other spells like mutagenic growth n distortionstrike. second match i won 2-1 against high tide and third match was against i think another URDelver list =)

i won a bye (from passdown) to a bigger event that im going to this saturday in an unknown meta! there are 52players signed up for that event atm at facebook but i wouldnt suprised if we reached 60 or so players.
Im getting excited! :D

I have lousy memory of things i play and such because all my energy is used to play with the new deck =) but i will try to give you a semireport on the tournament if you would like it :)

My feelings towards Team america sofar? I love it! and it let me grow as a magic player. its loads of fun! =)

Cheers and thanks for the help with my 75 earlier! =)

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Originally Posted by Gazoline

Hello!
I was the one with the hostile meta =)
i played BUG delver for my first time last saturday finished third! I met UR delver but with kiln fiend instead of delver and some other spells like mutagenic growth n distortionstrike. second match i won 2-1 against high tide and third match was against i think another URDelver list =)

i won a bye (from passdown) to a bigger event that im going to this saturday in an unknown meta! there are 52players signed up for that event atm at facebook but i wouldnt suprised if we reached 60 or so players.
Im getting excited! :D

I have lousy memory of things i play and such because all my energy is used to play with the new deck =) but i will try to give you a semireport on the tournament if you would like it :)

My feelings towards Team america sofar? I love it! and it let me grow as a magic player. its loads of fun! =)

Cheers and thanks for the help with my 75 earlier! =)

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Glad to read you enjoy it and get results this quickly.
Good luck in the bigger event! :smile:

Despite the naysayers I think this deck is extremely well positioned right now. I would encourage anyone who is intrigued to play it and formulate your own opinions before letting others dissuade you from trying it. Here is the 75 I piloted to 3-1 at last night's weekly legacy event.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Dimir Charm

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod

Round 1: Beat Junk Midrange 2-0

Sideboard => Play: -3 Force of Will, +3 Disfigure. Draw: -4 Daze, -3 Force of Will, -1 Hymn to Tourach, +3 Disfigure, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Dismember, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Null Rod

Round 2: Beat ANT 2-0

Sideboard => -4 Abrupt Decay, -2 Tarmogoyf, -1 Bayou, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Force of Will, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Envelop, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Null Rod

Round 3: Beat Elves 2-0

Sideboard => -4 Hymn to Tourach, -4 Daze, -1 Tarmogoyf, -1 Bayou, +3 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Force of Will, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Envelop, +1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Dismember

Round 4: Lost to Goblin Stompy 1-2. Game 1 my opponent on the play went turn 1 Chrome Mox, Cavern of Soul naming human, and pitching Simian Spirit Guide to cast an uncounterable Magus of the Moon. #FeelsBadMan.

Sideboard => -2 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Bayou, -1 Dimir Charm, +1 Force of Will, +1 Spell Pierce, +2 Disfigure

Congrats to those finding success lately. The deck is fine in the meta. I only stopped running it because my locals were gunning for me, running things like 4x Submerge in the board and other nonsense. Once I am done being sick and can get back on the horse, I'll be slinging Hymns back at people again.

I will add my few cents as well. This is the 75 I played and ended up 3-1 at last night's weekly legacy event.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Murderous Cut

4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Dread of Night
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Winter Orb
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Submerge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nihil Spellbomb

(some times I also pack Pithing Needle and Maelstrom Pulse)

Round 1: Lost to Patrick Chapin's deck (Esper Mentor) 2-0
Sideboard -> -4 Force of Will, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 Dread of Night, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm

Round 2: Win Deathblade 2-0
Sideboard -> -4 Force of Will, -2 Thoughtseize, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Sylvan Library,

Round 3: Win UR - Helm of Awakening + Sensei's Divining Top +Counterbanalnce storm combo 2-0
Sideboad -> -4 Force of Will, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Murderous Cut, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Null Rod, +1 Liliana of the Veil

Round 4: Win ANT without Ad Nauseam (Storm) 2-0

Sideboard -> -2 True-Name Nemesis, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Murderous Cut, -1 Tropical, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Null Rod, +1 Nihil Spellbomb + Sylvan Library

Underestimated Esper Mentor, did not make optimal sideboarding and made a couple of misplays. (did 2 misplays - I am aware of - even on round 3, but the deck backed me up, actually the deck tend to do that... sometimes)

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Originally Posted by Gazoline

Hello!
I was the one with the hostile meta =)
i played BUG delver for my first time last saturday finished third! I met UR delver but with kiln fiend instead of delver and some other spells like mutagenic growth n distortionstrike. second match i won 2-1 against high tide and third match was against i think another URDelver list =)

i won a bye (from passdown) to a bigger event that im going to this saturday in an unknown meta! there are 52players signed up for that event atm at facebook but i wouldnt suprised if we reached 60 or so players.
Im getting excited! :D

I have lousy memory of things i play and such because all my energy is used to play with the new deck =) but i will try to give you a semireport on the tournament if you would like it :)

My feelings towards Team america sofar? I love it! and it let me grow as a magic player. its loads of fun! =)

Cheers and thanks for the help with my 75 earlier! =)

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Congrats on your finish!

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

At the time when i made that comment bug delver was not in a good position. You may not agree with me. But enhinjer and asthreal agreed at that time too.

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You're all free to disagree with me, but Asthreal said that his (sorry if this is the wrong pronoun) meta "looks tough for BUG", which I agree with. You said not to play the deck at all if winning was the goal. There's a world of difference there. You gave the same advice to someone considering the Hymn/Liliana build because the anticipated field contained Merfolk (an admittedly unfavorable but totally winnable matchup) and MUD (which is somewhere between favorable and even). In short, I think you're excessively pessimistic about the deck's chances.

As for the tech, I'm on a pretty stock Hymn list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard

2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dread of Night
1 Envelop
1 Darkblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Marsh Casualties

While it's theoretically possible to be Wasted off of green with this list, people usually go after Seas first. Also, you're unlikely to win a game where you get triple Wastelanded and can't stick a Deathrite anyway. Going Jailer-heavy is a deliberate concession to Lands. Not only does it force them to kill it rather than DRS, it permanently shuts down both engines as long as its in play. Gamble becomes an actual gamble. Crop Rotation has a very real cost. Hymn has text again. It also means that your Wastelands aren't as taxed. It does make Reanimator and Storm variants a bit tougher to beat than having more conventional graveyard hate, but you have other tools in those matchups and the singleton Spellbomb is still good against them. Painful Truths is great. I'm still not sure it's better than Bob, but drawing 3 at once is extremely powerful and flipping Delver is also attractive.

I'm currently leaning toward playing this at FNM tomorrow and then taking it to a 5K for Eternal Extravaganza byes (in Baltimore, MD) on Saturday. I'm not sure which BUG deck is best, so I've been testing them all.

While I really like Jailer (I believe he is the best hate available in Vintage) I don't think I like him in Legacy, because outside of Lands, he doesn't really cross over to other decks. I almost always play 2 Surgical in that spot, simply because it is more versatile in the sense that I can come in versus a lot more decks.

How has Painful Truths been in this shell? I am definitely looking at running at least a pair when I finally get to try them out.

I see some people running Winter Orb, against which deck/archetype is it boarded in and what should the effect be useful at?

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I see some people running Winter Orb, against which deck/archetype is it boarded in and would should the effect be usefull at?

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Miracles. Maybe jund

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Originally Posted by H

While I really like Jailer (I believe he is the best hate available in Vintage) I don't think I like him in Legacy, because outside of Lands, he doesn't really cross over to other decks. I almost always play 2 Surgical in that spot, simply because it is more versatile in the sense that I can come in versus a lot more decks.

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I totally understand this perspective and I'm absolutely sacrificing broad utility for more power in a small number of matchups. I've tried Surgical in the past and I've always found it to be quite polarized. You feel like a genius when you get all of Dredge's Ichorids or Narcomoebas, but that's the only time it ever felt great to me, and it's so rare to be able to get something from their graveyard and hand that the potential for "value-hosing" doesn't make up for its weaknesses as far as I'm concerned. I've gotten all of somebody's Loams or Punishing Fires too many times only to die to the other engine that I'm willing to make my graveyard hate a little more focused in order to make Lands and Loam palatable matchups. Storm variants and Reanimator are the two decks that aren't hosed by it and while I'm definitely taking a risk by boarding less hate for them, I'm still confident that they're favorable enough matchups to cheat a smidge on hate.

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How has Painful Truths been in this shell? I am definitely looking at running at least a pair when I finally get to try them out.

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I like it so far. i haven't gotten in what I'd call a robust number of matches with this configuration, but it does what to needs to do against Miracles, D&T, and Shardless. To date I do miss MD Liliana and Spell Pierce, but that might be my irrational bias against non-Decay removal maindeck talking.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Miracles. Maybe jund

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Interesting, didn't expect those, please elaborate.
Ain it useful against MUD or Cloudpost?
At what point is Winter Orb gonna take over a game from Miracles?
And why Jund specifically?

Winter Orb is for any deck that's slower than us. It severely hampers the ability of opponents to maximize effects like Top that require mana input every turn, it makes cards like Rishadan Port much worse, and makes Deathrite and Wasteland much better. You want to play it when your opponent is tapped out (or tapped low) so that you get the maximum tempo boost from it - also note that it's a way to turn your Dazes and Pierces back on.