yeah, maybe we are both wrong. Maybe we don't need PTE, either. Thalia and Port already induce people to put more lands into play and that ought to be enough. Testing will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrdiVrag
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yeah, maybe we are both wrong. Maybe we don't need PTE, either. Thalia and Port already induce people to put more lands into play and that ought to be enough. Testing will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrdiVrag
Sorry, but I don't. It seems awful, like playing Goblin Guide with Stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I'm curious to see the results of your testing, let's hope you'll find a way to make it work.
Am I missing something or is this deck just pure awesomeness right now?
I am toying around with a list (below) for quite some time now and I am truly impressed by the decks powerlevel and think it is one of the most powerful, while underplayed, decks that exist. Honest.
Here is what I ended up with, the sideboard isn't 100% perfect (even if I think it's great) and I didn't took a closer look at how much Cavern of Souls I do want for the deck. Besides that, I can only see myself cutting an equipment for card X/Y.
10 Plains
1 Snow-covered Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Serra Avenger
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI
1 SoFF
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 StP
Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Absolute Law
1 Aura of Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Nevermore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Wing Shards
Batterskull is reallllly bad in this deck. It doesn't help achieve the goals well and can get stranded. Even worse is playing 2 copies. Kitchen Finks is also questionable, but we can replace that with O-rings which allow for more tricks and more removal against unfair decks (like Show & Tell), as well as answers to Planeswalkers from control.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
I have to admit that Finks is not as great as it was pre Terminus, but I still like what it does for the deck. Blocking Mongeese/buying time in general and giving the deck more chances to gain life and hit with equipments is still enough to keep it in IMO. Playing lesser creatures (in the CC3 slot, also) is something I am not convinced of right now.
Batterskull seems awful, but I have felt that it is somewhat necessary to negate different angles of attack from controllish decks and I moved it from the sideboard (where it stood for quite some time) to the maindeck and was pleased with it the majority of games. Batterskull is an awkward draw in many games and searching for it is something that can backfire pretty easy, but it's not like the decks plan is to cast SFM into Batterskull.
Both Batterskull and Finks are awesome against Threshold since they need to invest tons of resources to deal with the greater part of your deck and both cards seal the deal quite often. Flickering (or simply having) a Batterskull is huge against Pernicious Deed and Board-Sweepers and can own the heck outta Dredge sometimes.
I think the card gives the deck more variance, but mostly it is a good one in my experience.
I had a single Oblivion Ring in the maindeck, then moved it to the board. A well-timed Flickerwisp (which is a beast in this deck) and Mangara are still pretty good at doing that job and are not affected by Thalia (like the Elspeth I've cut from the md) and I rather have more creatures in most MU's right now.
Regarding Planeswalkers:
I am not that afraid of those (If they manage to get Jace on an empty board or with 1 creature is basically game against each deck anyway. Decks that pack Liliana are not that impressive in general. Garruk Relentless is a good one though.) and Revoker can still answer those rather efficient, if necessary.
Serra Avenger, while beeing great at carrying all these Forks, hasn't convinced me 100% yet, I like it as that typical situtational card a lot though. I still got the impression that the durability of Finks give them the nod over Serra right now.
Leonin Relic-Warder and Fiend Hunter are not unplayable and if someone doesn't feel like playing Finks (which is 100% fine and propably a better choice, depending on what you expect) I would think of these, especially Warder for the games where your Vial gets Pierced and Counterbalance steps in to wreck the party. Oblivion Ring is the better answer in general, but the body is more important in this deck IMO.
I've been a reader and observer of this deck and this thread for as long as I've been around The Source, but I'm finally now putting together a Death & Taxes deck for some local tournaments. Much obliged to anyone who can offer their expertise or advice:
Main Deck
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Flickerwisp
3 Grand Abolisher
2 Leonin Shikari
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 True Believer
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Karakas
2 Mistveil Plains
17 Plains
2 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Aura of Silence
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Weathered Wayfarer
Some explanations:
- I'd play more than two Wasteland if I owned more than two.
- I like both Grand Abolisher and True Believer a lot in theory, but I sort of expect others here to advise against playing them. But it does seem like they're potentially very disruptive to the majority of competitive Legacy decks in my meta. But maybe True Believer belongs in the sideboard.
- Leonin Shikari also seems good, but I don't have the experience to see how it performs.
- Why is Weathered Wayfarer in the sideboard? Perhaps it belongs in the main. But I envision it most as a way to find a Karakas when I need it against Reanimator or Sneak/Show, thus its presence in the side.
After reading this thread for a long time I decided to play D&T today at a small tournament. 14 people showed up and I came in second (could have one though, later on that) I got pretty lucky as many games involved 3 Wasteland/Port.
Small report:
Round 1 Esper Control/Aggro
Game 1 I can't handle his 1st turn Delver and die to it
Game 2 goes on forever, lots of creatures die, but I revoker Batterskull (which he hardcast) of Vial and draw my one Batterskull which I hardcast too. I can equip my Germ with a SoFI and take over from there. He throws Chumpblockers in front of me (Lingering Souls Tokens, more Delver, Mystics) and I go up to >50 before he dies.
Game 3 is a draw as neither of us wins in 3 mins + 5 turns
Round 2 Reanimate
Game 1 he starts with land go. I go Plains->Vial, EOT he entombs Iona (the guy was sittning next to me the prior round). Animate dead brings her back and he names white, which makes me a sad panda, but I go on playing. I land through Vial a Mom, Stoneforge (SoLaS) and Thalia. He stops attacking when I'm on 8, because he might have forgotten that Iona flies... And I win from there :)
Game 2 he doesn't find a reanimate target and I vial in Mom, Thalia, waste and port him and have the Grunt when he puts a Elesh in his gy.
Round 3 lifegain homebrew
Game 1 I beat him hard and have no idea what his deck does, double Mom made his Pacifism enchantment that gains him life a blank.
Game 2 he drops an Ajani's Pridemate, pacifies my Serra Angel and that thing groes to 8/8. I chump him a couple of turns with Thalia+Karakas and eventually find Jitte. Deal damage with Thalia, bounce her, wisp his Pridemate and kill it EOT with Jitte. I slowly start taking over after that as I now can handle all his other creatures.
Round 4 Maverick
Game 1 he keeps a hand with Savannah + Cradle and never draws another Manasource/1-drop
Game 2 I tripple Waste him, then put down a vial. He's mana screwed and I think I have this game. He then plays a Hierarch, I port his Savannah next turn and resp he casts Scryb. With cradle he quickly puts down 2 Knights, Kitchen Finks, BoP and I start picking his permanents apart with Mangara + Karakas. The Scryb gets chumped by a Flickerwisp and he casts a new one. Sylvan Library gets eaten too, but he then takes out my Karakas and Mangara has to go. Luckily I topdeck another one and win soon after as again he's out of Mana.
T4 Enchantress
Game 1 I slow him down with Thalia but he wins it easily at 7 life (loads of flying angels)
Game 2 I start with Vial, he starts with Enchantress of Chrome Mox. I waste his land, vial mom, cast Thorn of Amethyst, port his land, Revoker his mox and beat him slowly down as he never gets more than 2 Mana.
Game 3 I waste his first 2 lands, but am stranded on Plains there after. Double Mom beats start and he fails to draw another land and when Thalia is joined by a third Wasteland he concedes.
Final UW Miracle
Game 1 I start with Mom, revoker top and proceed to draw 2 Wasteland and 3 Port and win somewhere after. I keep a revoker and Mystic in hand as I'm afraid of Terminus
Game 2 he starts with top and I am really slow. At one point he miracles Terminus for a 2:1 and I lose somewhere after to double Mishra's Factory + Vendilion Clique
Game 3 I start and can Revoker Top soon. Revoker dies after he casts SCM on Disenchant, killing SoFI and then blocking my 4/3 (due to SoLaS) with Factory. I get Mangara + Karakas online, but only get Jace as he Miracle's Terminus to get rid of my Flickerwisp and Mangara. I get a Revoker down again on Top with a Mom to protect him. I get him down to 1 when I make a misplay. I eot bounce his Clique, untap and attack, let him block my Revoker (silly me) and bounce Clique just then... Next turn I lose to 2 4/4 Angel tokens.
The list:
10 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Disenchant
1 Batterskull
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serenity
1 Etherworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence
The SB Batterskull was only used against Esper, otherwise I really liked the board. Maybe -1 Tutor +1 something
The main was great, but multiple Karakas kinda annoyed me so I might cut one there.
Multiple Karakas is occasionally a problem, but not in the same zip code as the mana problems you will be dishing out. Actually, from your report you certainly know that. The point is that power has its price. Decide for yourself, but with both Mangara and Thalia in there, it is as important as ever. I still can't see cutting one with 23 lands, especially considering Vials too.
Berkowl, True Believer was commonly used way back in the day before Wizards was into printing truly impressive white disruption creatures, but even then it was mostly regarded as filler. Honestly, even the applications for which it seems like it should be good, it is pretty weak. In most cases, if the front line of attack is working, you won't even need it against any of the top like 100 decks or so. Really only a mono-black deck with heavy discard and light spot removal would have trouble with it (Gatekeeper of Malakir is actually hilarious if the opponent does not realize what will happen). But, I can't remember the last time I saw a Gatekeeper.
Abolisher is a bit better, but frankly there is only one counterspell deck in the format you should fear - Sneak Attack. There are probably dozens of other applications for this guy, but really what are you going to cut for him? There really aren't any weak cards. Since Thalia, there is not enough room in the main for all the strong cards as it is. Just look at the lists with all the 3-ofs. Do you really think Serra Avenger is too weak to be a 4-of in a deck with Mystics? Insectile Aberrations abound, and still we are going to 3. It's tight in there. Do yourself a favor and stick to what definitely works unless you know you have a small, strange meta.
Played to 4-0 at Monday Legacy.
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
10x Plains
4x Mom
4x Stoneforge
4x Serra Avenger
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Thalia
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara
4x Swords
4x Vial
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
SIDEBOARD
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Stony Silence
1x Pithing Needle
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x COP: Red
Round 1: Mono Red
Game one, guy mulligans to six, I keep. He Lava Spikes, I Vial; he Flame Rifts, I Thalia; he Firesblasts Thalia and Spikes me; I Mystic for Jitte; he plays Lavamancer, I vial in Jitte; get there eventually with Jitte and Serra Avenger from Vial.
BOARD: -3 Mangara, -2 Flickerwisp, +3 Enlightened Tutor, +1 COP: Red, +1 Amethyst
Naturally COP: Red on turn two, GG bro.
Round 2: TES
Game one, guy mulligans to six, me on play. I Vial turn one; he Probes paying two, seeing Thalia, Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger, Mystic, and Plains. He Brainstorms, and plays Petal. He Silences me on Upkeep, I draw Waste and take out his Underground Sea. Eventually I get Thalia and Mystic out, and win on the back of Jitte.
BOARD: -3 Mangara, -4 Swords, -1 Flickerwisp, -1 LaS +4 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Ethersworn, +1 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Stony Silence, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Revoker.
Hatebears come out (Thalia, Canonist, Thorn by the end of turn 3), about to swing for lethal with SoFaI, he has to Shattering Spree through the hate, cracking a LED and leaving his board clear. Eventually Ad Nausuems at 6 life, hits Inquisition/Inquisition/Thoughtsezie/BWish, with his only land a City of Brass, loses.
Round 3: Reanimator:
Game one: Me on the play, I keep a Mom-less, Karakas-less 7 (had no clue what he was on). He passes, discarding Griselbrand, Reanimates on turn 2, that's all she wrote.
BOARD: -3 Mangara, -2 Flickerwisps, -1 SoFaI, -3 Mystic, +4 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Metamorph, +1 O-Ring
Game 2: Had 2 Revokers on Griselbrand, he Show and Tells Elesh in, I drop Karakas, Enlightened for Ensnaring Bridge (w/other hate in hand),drop Jotun Grunt off of Vial as he has like 8 million useless cards in his graveyard.
Game 3: Land Wheel on turn 2 after he Forces Crypt. Eventually he reanimates a Thalia from my grave, I vial Flickerwisp end of turn, he scoops.
Round 4: Esper Stoneblade
Can't remember much about this one, but I win game one after he mulls to 4 keeping a Mutavault lander and I waste it. He wins game two on the back of a Batterskull and my inability to do combat math. I win game three after a long, but drawn out battle, sealing it with Mangara lock exiling an inactive Jitte and swinging for lethal with Serra Avenger and SoFaI.
I made some bad erros at random points (namely game 2 round 4), and while I don't think i drew exceptionally, I feel my opponents were on the rough end of variance. That said, I really like the deck's matchup against Reanimator post-board, and feel that with a good draw, post-board combo is very winnable. Stoneblade feels like a good matchup, and Mono-red is a crapshoot pre-board, but better post.
"Vial" as a verb to describe SFM's ability too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum
Anyway, I was at this event too, playing Deadguy Ale. I didn't play you, but I did play a Vial-less version of Death & Taxes in Round 4 and got blown out. I also lost to your Round 4 opponent.
Your deck looks real solid. Just wondering: Have you thought much about Aven Mindcensor? It wreaks havoc on so much in Legacy, though you probably have good reasons for the creatures you run over it.
Yeah, realized its more confusing given that the deck actually has Vials. Mindcensor seems very solid against many decks, and I honestly haven't done a whole ton of testing with the deck, but in theorizing, the main deck creatures have better general utility; Mangara is great against Stoneblade decks, and Flickerwisp (what I would say is the most arguable of cards) saved my ass many times with Vial on 3. I went full out with the Enlightened Tutor sideboard, but a couple of Mindcensors might be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by berksowl
I saw the other mono-white deck, and it was a little different (don't know how I feel about Ancient Tombs), but in watching the guy play, its clear he had a ton of experience, and could probably outplay me with the same deck.
I'm definitely a newb when it comes to playing the format, but the results were very encouraging.
@Quantum: I'm not a DnT player, but that list looks very smooth. I play goblins, and I can imagine that list being a real pain in the ass to play against.
Its largely stock, but I think that the mix of creatures is really, really streamlined, and play style can be effectively shifted against almost any deck shy of glass cannon combos (the deck folds to Belcher/Spanish Inquisition) or Spiral Tide. I'm expecting to see a lot of Stoneblade and RUG Delver, and the deck seems to function pretty well against blue creature decks.
The effectiveness of the Enlightened Tutor package is impressive; so many silver bullets available that it really comes down to how well you know the meta.
@Quantum: I run a similar list, with +1 plains/port and -1 Revoker/Avenger, with two revokers in the side. Is there a reason for the lessened manabase, or is it purely economic?
Further, what do you think about Oust/PtE in the side as additional removal? I'm trying to formulate a SB for GP Atlanta.
Won a small tourney in local shop again in last weekend with D&T. 13 players and i win against RUG delver, Maverik, TES and the gate.
I play 2 PtE in my sb and they are good in games where you cant cut of color (Basically mono colored creature decks) or opponent isn't playing any basic lands (RUG,TA).
Also i play this deck like controll for 4/5 first turns and then switch to agro mode if possible. Then you got maybe vial ticked in 2/3 counters and got possibility to play avenger or play+equip sword in same turn
Hi there. I'm playing a classic list, but with 2 Gut Shot md, cause of the meta.
I'm having a lot of problems fighting threshold. The goal, there, is basically to throw in a running SoFI, I believe, but otherwise, can't really manage to win the game. Any advices?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyggli
Primer is well done and updated often.
I got nothing to add. Grunt is good, mana denial is good, all swords are good (It doesent have to be SoFI, SoLS bringing blokkers back and gaining life is really good too in this match)Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I traded for the 4th Port following the tourney; was just card availability for me. I feel like 23 lands would be a little much... nothing in the deck costs more than 3, and in my limited experience, I rarely find myself even wanting to hard cast Flickerwisp or Mangara. I can see running 10 plains along with the 12 non-basics (to ensure a white source in the opener), but even then I don't know; I'd rather have the Avenger. 3 Revokers might be too many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
My sideboard was purely silver bullets; I honestly think I want SoFaF over one of the enchantments, and Cursed Totem over the Revoker in the side. I think a Path or two would be really good for the RUG matchup especially (as its most often strictly better than Plow against them).
Agree with you completely; Wasteland and Port are gold, and Thalia is awesome against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schembo
Hey fellas. I see that there is some new blood bringing new ideas. Wonderful. Let me give you some info to help you all along.
23 lands are what I play with the expectation that my opponents will be keen on (and capable of) not letting me have an active Vial. If you are in an undeveloped meta, playing against opponents who are unfamiliar with the deck, or simply not seeing much counter magic or removal for the Vial, go on down to 22. I would probably cut a Wasteland or a Port for the subtraction. 21 lands is playing with fire. You will get burned eventually.
Delvers have made the Threshold/RUG matchup not as good as it once was, but it is still pretty good for us. Any game that you can handle their first offering you will probably win. Your side boarding strategy should reflect that. I like Oust a lot here, though if you can be certain that they have no basics, PTE is surely better. I am never willing to have PTE in my side board though because Oust comes in against a wide variety of opponents while PTE is sharply limited, as it directly impedes the deck's strategy if the opponent can fetch even one basic from it.
Quantum's words about Flickereisp are right on. Confident, tournament-savvy players who have picked up D&T almost often cut Flickerwisps in favor of their favorite replacement. They were all wrong, probably did poorly as a direct result, and did not stick it out long enough to see their mistake. In addition to all the other things Flickerwisp does, it gives the deck quasi-removal for any random permanents. This takes pressure off the rest of the deck (especially the side board), allowing players to execute their plan A (disruption and incremental board control) with impunity, assured with the knowledge that they always have Flickerwisps to bail them out. It's a powerful position to be in.
Most players have opted against Mindcensors because it is a turn too slow and because there really is nothing to cut for it.
I do not update this OP as often as the one on Salvation. That one can be counted on to have up-to-date info and analysis.
Hmm, maybe i need to reconsider with salvation. I just usually read mtg stuff in work (2 child keep me busy at home) with smartphone and that place is full of humongous pictures,banners and other stuff that takes yers to upload.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I've been doing great with this list in my local meta.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
2 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of light and shadow
Sideboard
2 Path to exile
2 Disenchant
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Tormods crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flex slot
4 tourneys placing 1st, 3th, 2dn and last saturday again 1st. They are starting to adapt but im still having so much fun with this pile so time to take eva green again in tourney is not yet current.
So much love for wisp! Ok, i try to squeeze 3th in my list for next tournanet.
I agree with mindcensor, he is too slow to work in D&T.
I've been playing around with this the last weeks, and I'm not sure why Batterskull would be a bad choice, since it seems like an obvious choice along with SFM. Could you elaborate on why Batterskull should not be part of this deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Also I'm wondering why many of these decks do not seem to play Mirran Crusader. Of course I can understand that the 3 mana is a bit expensive, but the protection in combination with swords with different protections can virtually make this creature unblockable.
Further I'm not entirely sure what to target with Flickerwisp. Would you usually target an opponent's permanent making the way clear for an attack, or it is common practice to target your own SFM to find another sword or your Jotun Grunt to reset the age counters? You could even target your Phyrexian Revoker to choose a different card to block...
Played in the Legacy Open yesterday, a little disappointed, going 4-3-1 to finish top 64, but I feel like I could've done better w/more experience and a little better luck. Quick recap, list is the same as the one a page or two back, except I added a 4th Port and dropped a Flickerwisp, and made a couple minor sideboard changes (added Grafdigger's Cage, dropped something I can't remember).
Round 1: Nic Fit (1-1, 0-0-1) Drew 1-1
Played on Table 1... good omen? Game one he goes slowly, I think he's Maverick with a terrible start; name Revoker on Knight, next turn he plays Deed. :( Eventually, starts doing the Explorer thing, and then gets Eternal Witness and Recurring Nightmare, and its GG. Bring in Pithing Needle, and maybe another card or two. Game two I get two Revokers on Deed, Vial goes crazy, stick SoLaS which lets me get through Sigarda and race Sigarda. Game three drags, was going to lose in turns, but he's one turn of lethal.
Round 2: Deadguy Ale (3-2, 1-0-1) Won 2-1
Buddy of mine, knew his exact list. Game one I maul him, with double Plow and double Wasteland (he plays 4 Godless Shrine in addition to Scrublands, as well as Wastes), sit Vial, and Port him for the rest of the game. Don't side anything in, as the deck is awesome as-is versus fair decks. He apparently changed his sideboard, because I get POISONED OUT in game 2 by Phyrexian Crusaders... he added three to battle against white decks, and well, I'm the perfect matchup for them. Game three, he sticks Crusaders, but I stick Serra Avenger with SoFaI, and after having to chump with a Revoker, I'm able to down his Crusaders with shock triggers.
Round 3: UR Delver (Brad Grant, finished 9th) (4-4, 1-1-1) Lost 2-1
I punted this match, and badly in a couple of ways. Even knowing he had a Sulfur Elemental, I walked right into it and misutilized Jitte. I failed to protect Thalia with a Vialed Flickerwisp when I had the chance. I chose to play a random card versus Thorn of Amethyst. I didn't Waste him when I had a chance to keep him on one land. I really feel I should have won this match, and my lack of experience with the deck bit me.
Round 4: UW Stoneblade (6-4, 2-1-1) Won 2-0
I *love* the matchup versus Stoneblade. As aggro-controlly as the deck is, it's really consistent in being able to threaten. This match was pure attrition, and I dominated game one. Brought in a couple silver bullets (Thorn in particular) for sideboard, sideboarded out Plows, as Snaps and Cliques were his only creatures. Game two was even more attrition... came back from two miracled Terminuses and a Snapcaster'ed Terminus, to win handily.
Round 5: UW Miracletop (8-4, 3-1-1) Won 2-0
Again, love UW matchups. First game, he Plowed many things, but with equipment on the field, and my life approaching 30 by the time his hand ran dry, Entreat for 3 Angels was unimpressive (thank you Thalia, thank you Flickerwisp, thank you Mangara). Post-board, I stuck T1 Vial, T2 had Thalia countered, T3 stuck Thorn/vialed Thalia/Wasted Tundra, and then ported him the rest of the game on his upkeep with him only having two lands in play. GG bro. Worth noting, leading with a Port/Wasteland into Vial can be worthwhile if you know your opponent doesn't have Wasteland... he thought I was on Goblins T1.
Round 6: Food Chain Combo (8-6, 3-2-1) Lost 2-0
This guy got a deck-tech, and I wasn't in either match. Stuck Revokers both matches, but Echoing Truth blew me out both games. Tilted myself hard in G2, as I forgot to pay upkeep on Jotun Grunt. Was really, really frustrated, as I had no idea how to disrupt his deck.
Round 7: Esper Stoneblade (9-8, 3-3-1) Lost 2-1
Another Stoneblade match, and one I drew horribly in. Both games I lost, missed third land drop, which is fine, but he had two Vindicates for both in one game, and two Vindicates and Snapcaster for lands and Vial in other game. Literally the only match I had mana issues with @ 22 lands, but tilting nonetheless. Still had a chance, but made a couple of iffy plays re: Thalia and Thorn in game 3 after getting overly tilted with mana screw in game 2 (lesson is DROP THESE CARDS ASAP IN STONEBLADE).
Round 8: UB Control (11-8, 4-3-1) Won 2-0
Played a good, tight player this round. Had an issue with Thalia, where he Dazed something but couldn't pay the 1, and we both missed it until the next turn, but judge staff resolved it quickly and without contention. He was on mull to 5, I beat him down with many things, he scooped once I vialed Mangara in EOT with Karakas. Side in Thorn, and a couple of E-Tutors, taking out Plows. Next game he has control, but I Waste his Tar Pit and Factory, land Revokers at two separate times on Jace, do the same with Pithing Needle, Mangara his Tombstalker, survive *three* Massacres, and actually do lethal with a Jitte-equipped Mom. I admittedly ripped off the top like a fiend in this match.
Overall thoughts: meta much different than expected. I knew a TON of people would be on Stoneblade (based on the 30-40 people I know who played today), but didn't expect to play "fair" decks seven out of eight times.
I really, really like the main deck matchup with all of them... I'm confident I would have won round 1 if I had named Deed on Revoker; I should've won the UR Delver matchup, but my lack of legacy knowledge was really apparent; the Esperblade match was grindy, but I think I could've pulled it out with better draws. I will admit I had no chance to win the Food Chain match, but it is a fringe deck at best, and I feel the E-Tutor sideboard is much better for the T1/T2 decks that give DnT the most trouble (namely any kind of Storm and Reanimator).
Basically, I'm super stoked after my first big Legacy tournament, and excited for more local events.
Re: Batterskull, you're almost never going to be able to hardcast it/equip it/pay 3 to bring it back to hand, and the sting of getting a 5-mana spell countered in this deck is much worse than getting a 3 countered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybey
As for Flickerwisp, the card is amazing, and leads to BLOWOUTS with Vial on three. Target Batterskull germ tokens, target potential blockers, Vial it in to kill Jitte carrying tokens, protect a summoning-sick Mom, reset opposing Vials, remove their island in first main to keep them off Daze, SFM value, Jotun Grunt value, Karakas function for Mangara, etc. I won a match against Nic Fit by Vialing in Flickerwisp during my opponent's end step, and removing his Baneslayer Angel FTW. That doesn't even take into consideration the lack of fliers in the format.
Some people like Mindcensors, but there just isn't the utility that Flickerwisp brings.
It's not Standard where there are cards commonly chosen for a deck specifically for their interaction with key cards in a common opposing deck. The format is several degrees of magnitude too vast for that kind of thinking. Flickerwisp has decent interactions with some of your own cards, but its versatility is what makes it such a star. There is a Flickerwisp section in the OP for its common uses. It is dated, but should provide a starting place. I think most D+T players are scanning the board for targets whenever they have one in hand.Quote:
Also I'm wondering why many of these decks do not seem to play Mirran Crusader. Of course I can understand that the 3 mana is a bit expensive, but the protection in combination with swords with different protections can virtually make this creature unblockable.
Further I'm not entirely sure what to target with Flickerwisp. Would you usually target an opponent's permanent making the way clear for an attack, or it is common practice to target your own SFM to find another sword or your Jotun Grunt to reset the age counters? You could even target your Phyrexian Revoker to choose a different card to block...
This leads right into the Mirran Crusader argument. Against "fair" opponents, D+T operates from a position of apparent disadvantage by preventing its opponent from casting their spells when they want to, disrupting their deck from functioning optimally, incrementally gaining advantage, and finally seizing (usually incomplete) control. There really is no room - or need - for an alpha striker. Sure it will deliver the winning blow in a lot of games, but you probably cut Flickerwisp for it. And FLickerwisp grabs games. D+T is in the business of doing a kind of rope-a-dope. Especially, against blue decks like Stoneblade, RUG, UR Delver, and I presume MiracleTop to some degree, you can actually see your opponent's cards in hand diminishing faster than yours while you are just mechanically dodging their blows. If you have an equipped creature dealing combat damage, you can expect to win that game no matter what the creature because D+T is usually fighting to get to that stage. When it comes, the game is basically over. In short, Mirran Crusader is win-more.
First of all, Quantum and Finn, thanks for your clear explanation about these card choices. I can get on board with the reasoning around Mirran Crusader, although I have encountered several matches where the Crusader let me get to that tipping point faster by getting him through with a sword.
With Batterskull I'm still not entirely sure. Usually when I use it, I never cast it, but cheat it into play with SFM. This does however mean, that if you draw into it and don't have a SFM (anymore) it's basically a dead card. Come to think of it, maybe that's reason enough to cut it from my list and rather have a card which will almost never be a dead card.
4-0 today. Beat spanish inquisition, merfolk, goblins and b/w stoneblade. Forgot to switch 1 revoker for flickerwisp before tourney but never missed that one.
We were testing our decks today for coming sunday when 14 players for my city travels to play legay in near town. Waiting something about 30-35 players to show up.
Any advice about for my sb? Waiting to see lots of RUG (TY GP Atlanta), couple miracle decks, 2-4 dredge, 3 solidarity (Maybe more, 2 from my city and i borrow mine for local player) maverik and lots of random decks (Burn,eva green, painter,TES, u/w thopters)
2 Path to exile
2 Disenchant
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Tormods crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn amethyst
3 Enlightened Tutor
I played at a legacy tournament this past Saturday with a Death and Taxes Mono-White Deck. I won only two games (not matches). Both of those games I won because of Batterskull being in play. Batterskull may not directly affect the main combo of this deck. However it is a powerful equipment and it is incredibly easy to search for Batterskull off of Stoneforge Mystic. Not to mention it is also incredibly easy to get Batterskull into play off of the same Stoneforge Mystic. And because Batterskull is a "Living Weapon" we don't even need to equip it to something to start taking an opponent to town with it. Now I realize some of the detractors will argue that the card requires 5 mana to re-equip it, but really, 5 mana is not that much. I managed to get 5 mana most of the time I was playing at that legacy tournament (I played 6 games at that tournament and had 5 lands in at least 4 out of those 6 games). So it is not impossible to use this card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Also, Heya to all of the long time regulars... Long time no see!
EDIT: @Schembo's Sideboard: First things, I would replace the disenchants with Seal of Cleansing's as those are enchantments that do the same thing as Disenchant and are thus searchable by Enlightened Tutor. Also, while Grafdigger's Cage is impressive it is too easy for an enemy to deal with. I would suggest Phyrexian Metamorph instead. Circle of Protection Red is an interesting choice, but are you sure you have enough mana to make full use of it against say a Goblin deck?
EDIT2: It should be noted that you can Flickerwisp a Batterskull in order to get a new Germ Token, assuming that the original Germ Token is destroyed in some way.
I don't think this statement is correct in a format filled with spot removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin
Batterskull should be good against decks with direct damage, but at the same time direct damage spells are good versus Mystic.
And most decks with Bolts will very well capitalize on this tempo loss.
So you mean like Burn, Zoo, Goblins, and what else?Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
Last I checked Burn is just about the worst deck in the format. The deck loses to just about anything running blue in it (which is almost everything these days). Zoo has been more or less replaced from what I have seen by Maverick which doesn't run red at all except in some very weird corner cases. And Goblins while still viable is the only deck left in the format that really runs red and truth be told it would be better off filling slots with more goblins instead of direct burn spells for the purpose of killing creatures. Not to mention that for Goblins there are way better options than killing off Stoneforge Mystic (say for example killing off Mother of Runes while she still has Summoning Sickness).
So all told that takes care of the three primary decks in the format that run red. The rest are going to be so rare that you really don't need to sideboard against them unless there is a significant meta shift in your area in favor of those decks.
RUG Delver is a pretty good deck that runs Lightning Bolts.
Funny you should mention that, one of the games I actually played was against RUG Delver, and he didn't cast a single lightning bolt on my Stoneforges. Actually for him my Mother of Runes were of higher priority than my Stoneforges were. Considering I had 2 Mom's out simultaneously in one of our games I think that would make her a bigger target than the Stoneforge whose only major advantage is getting equipment cards from my hand or library and putting them into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by berksowl
I meant:Quote:
Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin
UR Delver (some versions are loaded with burn - even more than Zoo back in time);
RUG (witch could side in Ancient Grudge, so it would not matter what to grab);
Punishing Maverick (some versions run 4 Swords to Plowshares + 3-4 Punishing Fire maindeck)
And yeah, everything around Burn, Sligh and Zoo (theese decks are not showing great top8 performance today, but you will meet them in lower tables of almost every tournament).
So by this logic we might as well cut both the Stoneforge Mystics and all equipment in general from our lists all together simply because the numbers are stacked against us in the burn department. [/sarcasm]Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
Do you guys realize that the argument you are making is a logical fallacy?
Yep, seals are tutorable but same time easier to play around. This sometimes matters when chant allows some combat trics.Quote:
Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin
I wont go in any tournament with at least 3 gy hate in my sb. And against waht you would board metamorph? Got decent match against sneak and animator without morph and cop:red works on progenital.
Funny thing: Still chuckle a litlle bit when i think about my last opponents face who played sneak attack. First game destroyed his manabase and second game dropped blind mangara on second turn S&T when opponen dropped spaghetti monster :tongue:
Cop:red isnt my firs thing to board against goblins (ok it goes in) but against burn, u/r delver and zoo. Creature based decks are easy to handle but decks with lots of dmg spells its a fight against time to find jitte and cop buys you time very well.
Just counted my match and i'm played 6 small tourneys (12-17 players) in last 2 months. 26 games and lost 2 of those.
you would board metamorph in against things like Iona, Griselbrand, and other large legendary creatures that you wouldn't normally want to hit with a swords to plowshares (or can't in the case of Iona), or which it is impractical to hit with slower spells such as Oblivion Ring or Mangara.
Yes, i know that metamorph comes in against legendary creatures. I was asking which deck is so much porblem you want to weaken dredge match for switching cage to metamorph?
I like cage against animator more than metamorph. It forces opponent search for hate before he can animate anything and metamorph just answers to resolved threat + it puts it back in gy.
really? Your reason for running cage is the dredge match up? Thats like running Ethersworn Canonist against Solidarity. Dredge can easily play around a resolved Cage if it has to. What you need in that match up is a permanent answer to a graveyard, not some temporary answer. Especially when Dredge often runs 4x Bounce spells. Also, Dredge is still a factor in Legacy?
And reanimator. Metamorph helps there too but i just explained why i like gace more in that match up. And there might be suprice factor and someone might summon zombardment against me :laugh:
Canonist comes in against solidarity but first thing to search against them for me is Thorn amethyst.
You can't afford to trade tempo for nothing in matchups where you are control.Quote:
Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin
Mystic costs 2 mana, most playable removal in this format costs 1. You grab Batterskull, so you're 2-for-1 them and the cost is significant tempo loss (1 mana at early stages of game versus aggro is significant).
But since fundamental turn in aggro MUs is much earlier than the one you'll land your 5th land, that Batterskull in your help is a dead card.
So basically a scenario Mystic (=> Batterskull) => 1-mana removal means a tempo loss.