All B/R update speculation.

I agree with the people that say that it would suck to see brainstorm banned because people would leave the format. I mean I think it's an extremely childish and stupid reason to quit legacy, but I do know that it would happen, at least on some level. I would hate to see the numbers that are already pretty mediocre at least in local levels get even worse, but at the same time I would love to see a world where it's gone and maybe some non blue decks get to rise up. I mean just think of how the junk decks and such would get a better match up against the show and tell decks and such thanks to The spot discard being more effective

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I agree with the people that say that it would suck to see brainstorm banned because people would leave the format. I mean I think it's an extremely childish and stupid reason to quit legacy, but I do know that it would happen, at least on some level. I would hate to see the numbers that are already pretty mediocre at least in local levels get even worse, but at the same time I would love to see a world where it's gone and maybe some non blue decks get to rise up. I mean just think of how the junk decks and such would get a better match up against the show and tell decks and such thanks to The spot discard being more effective

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Well maybe Brainstorm is part of the problem with growth? The meta, to an outsider, probably looks pretty homologous, and while there are certain variations in the decks that are quite significant at times, I would say they wouldn't be wrong in assuming that. The meta is in a position where there is a couple Blue decks that are just the best thing to be doing and that could easily turn off a lot of potential new players.

Cost of blue duals doesn't help. The throngs of people quitting and selling their Tundras because their beloved fucking cantrip got banned should help lower the price.

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Originally Posted by cheerios

Why don't they unban Recruiter, Balance, and Survival and turn the whole format into a fuckfest

Cheers

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As opposed to what it is now?

Rather than just banning cards and printing cards to "solve" problems (good work killing miracles abrupt decay), the format should be opened up with cards being unbanned. Jesus christ, if you think Goblin Recruiter is going to ruin Legacy, have you seen tinfins?

I'm always in favour of printing and unbanning cards rather than banning cards whenever possible. Abrupt Decay was a step in the right direction, but we just got a bit off track with Snapcaster, TNN, Cruise, DTT and the list goes on.

Had TNN been black, Snapcaster been red, and some other manipulation been in some other colours, I'm sure we'd be in a bit better place.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Sorry yeah, I meant Recruiter.. derp.

It's possible, but unless it's unbanned no one's going to waste time testing it out and tuning decklists.
For what it's worth, I believe Vial-Goblins is very close to being a good deck. With the exceptions of combo matchups, no fair deck will just blow Goblins out of the water, assuming that the Goblins deck is properly built. E.g; Esper Deathblade will probably win 75% of the time, but it will take a while for them to push through the defences and/or stabilise the board and convert that into a win. Game 2 of this matchup is the best example of this.

Take out the shitty tarfires, put in the Recruiters and blammo, you've got a real deck capable of keeping up with all the other fair decks.

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Depending on what the format looks like I think I'd rather play a standard Goblins build than FCG. You can always side out Vials for Food Chain in the combo matchups. Fair decks have a difficult time beating Recruiter if you play fair. Trying to get cute with FC is probably not the best plan in most matchups.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Depending on what the format looks like I think I'd rather play a standard Goblins build than FCG. You can always side out Vials for Food Chain in the combo matchups. Fair decks have a difficult time beating Recruiter if you play fair. Trying to get cute with FC is probably not the best plan in most matchups.

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Yeah agreed. Turning on spell pierces and other countermagic isn't where you want to be with Goblins.

With the brainstorm's ban, the discard effects become too strong.
Two consecutive discard effects can destroy all the hands.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Cost of blue duals doesn't help. The throngs of people quitting and selling their Tundras because their beloved fucking cantrip got banned should help lower the price.

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So a Brainstorm ban would be good by helping people get into legacy - as a direct result of it causing a bunch of people to leave? That sure is some quality reasoning...

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Originally Posted by btm10

I'm pretty skeptical of this argument - it's not like the new Creature-That-Rebreaks-Survival is going to do anything other than come into play from the graveyard and there are at least a dozen playable answers to reanimation strategies. On top of that, whatever creature it is is going to cost at least 1GG and involve no fewer than two priority passes before it impacts the game state beyond changing zones. Maybe if they print something completely insane like a cycle of creatures with "if this whole cycle is in the graveyard you win the game", there'd be an argument, but then there'd also be an argument for banning Buried Alive.

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Thank you. Aside from them literally prinitng a 2 mana cost vengevine that is 5/5, Survival ain't effectively cheating something more efficiently than retainers or vengevine anytime soon. A printed creature that'd break Survival would have to fulfill an incredibly narrow subset of prerequisites, it's way more likely that reanimator or Show and Tell get way more broken first when things like Omniscience or Griselbrand get printed. Do we also ban all reanimating spells because of the same reasoning anti-survival blokes use against SotF? Because you know, the subset of creatures broken with reanimation where you can easily cheat the casting cost, compared to survival which work as a pseudo-tutor and work as a cheating mechanism only in Vengevines case.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Thank you. Aside from them literally prinitng a 2 mana cost vengevine that is 5/5, Survival ain't effectively cheating something more efficiently than retainers or vengevine anytime soon. A printed creature that'd break Survival would have to fulfill an incredibly narrow subset of prerequisites, it's way more likely that reanimator or Show and Tell get way more broken first when things like Omniscience or Griselbrand get printed. Do we also ban all reanimating spells because of the same reasoning anti-survival blokes use against SotF? Because you know, the subset of creatures broken with reanimation where you can easily cheat the casting cost, compared to survival which work as a pseudo-tutor and work as a cheating mechanism only in Vengevines case.

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I fear you miss that Reanimator is a three-card-combo between Dump/Creature/Reanimation and Survival is a two card combo for the sake of reanimating crazy stuff while also being a lot more compact in slots required. There is no tax in throwing in 4 Surival, Retainer and a fatty in any creature deck to have a combo build in on top of an option to cycle your manadorks for more powerful threats at any given time.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

So a Brainstorm ban would be good by helping people get into legacy - as a direct result of it causing a bunch of people to leave? That sure is some quality reasoning...

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Barely as good as "kill a shitload of existing decks so we might see new ones emerging"

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I fear you miss that Reanimator is a three-card-combo between Dump/Creature/Reanimation and Survival is a two card combo for the sake of reanimating crazy stuff while also being a lot more compact in slots required. There is no tax in throwing in 4 Surival, Retainer and a fatty in any creature deck to have a combo build in on top of an option to cycle your manadorks for more powerful threats at any given time.

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There is no tax aside from the fact that you have to play 20+ creatures in a shell? Please. Reanimating shells are far more compact with ent/discards/reanimating spells and 10+ cantrips/tutors plus blue shell to protect instead of playing mana elves, pridemages, retainers etc... And they're not obliged to reanimate legendary creatures either (even if every reanimating target they printed lately was a legend).

Also the cognitive dissonance in defending BS but attacking Survival for havign the sin of dominating the format far less, for far less time, it's just... i can't

Kill a shitload of decks ?!?! Axing BS wouldn't remove any deck from the format since extremely good BS replacements already exist. It would just nerf those deck, not magicall make blue disappear from the format. Dishonesty at its worst.

I'm pretty sure Delver is the culprit here not brainstorm....I'm all for banning brainstorm but I would be sad to see Storm get worse because of it.

Reanimating with Survival is far more expensive than doing so now. Entomb, Exhume is a cheap combo. Cast Survival, rotate for your target, rotate for Retainers, cast Retainers is a lot more expensive and difficult.

Also Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze and Grafdigger's Cage have all seen print since it was banned. Survival as a reanimation strategy is slower and weaker too these cards. Now yes, I do understand you can tutor a Reclamation Sage to break a Cage, that's still more time you waste, more mana you spend and another creature you need to search for your combo. I think that Survival is busted yes, but Loyal Retainers has nothing on Exhume.

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

I'm pretty sure Delver is the culprit here not brainstorm....I'm all for banning brainstorm but I would be sad to see Storm get worse because of it.

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I don't even think Delver is the best blue deck, that title belongs to miracles.

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

I'm pretty sure Delver is the culprit here not brainstorm....I'm all for banning brainstorm but I would be sad to see Storm get worse because of it.

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The funny thing is that I believe that it wouldn't be that much worse. You just have to play more business spells (Burning Wish) and discard would be so much better than it already is. Plus, you would still have all major lines available.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

The funny thing is that I believe that it wouldn't be that much worse. You just have to play more business spells (Burning Wish) and discard would be so much better than it already is. Plus, you would still have all major lines available.

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Would really hurt Infernal Tutor. Brainstorm can help a lot when you need to go Hellbent.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Would really hurt Infernal Tutor. Brainstorm can help a lot when you need to go Hellbent.

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Of course, but other options would come to the fore. I could see a mixture between ANT and TES being the storm deck of a possible "post-BS" era. Summing up: It would be still a valid choice. Nonetheless, let's not turn this discussion into a deck development thread.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Also the cognitive dissonance in defending BS but attacking Survival for havign the sin of dominating the format far less, for far less time, it's just... i can't

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There is no cognitive dissonance, Survival dominated with a narrow range of deck types.
Brainstorm works in and enables a broad range of deck types, Unless you have a reason to not run it, adding 4 BS blue Duals and fetches will improve most decks, but without the shuffle effects it is nowhere near as good.

The range of strategies and deck archetypes is more important then the range of deck colors. unless you decide to lobotomize yourself to the point that all you can not see is past the color of decks.

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Originally Posted by Hrothgar

With the brainstorm's ban, the discard effects become too strong.
Two consecutive discard effects can destroy all the hands.

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Standard has access to BOTH Thoughtseize and Duress. And while pretty popular, they don't ruin the format.

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Originally Posted by sjmcc13

The range of strategies and deck archetypes is more important then the range of deck colors. unless you decide to lobotomize yourself to the point that all you can not see is past the color of decks.

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And none of these strategies would be killed without Brainstorm. Miracles might have trouble, but considering it's the top dog of the format that also suppresses pretty much any creature deck without counters or Vial with its LOL TERMINUS, that's not necessarily a bad thing.