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I always happy to see Force Spike in first three turns.
I have Impulse to to clear it from topdeck and FoW to pitch.
If it's lategame, it's usually my game anyway.
Force Spike is not totally useless in mid-late game 'cause we run Back to Basics.
If you're on draw and see Vial or Lackey, Repeal = Force Spike = nothing
If you're on play, Force Spike > Repeal
The main reason is that bounce creates mostly tempo and MUC is clearly not tempo deck.
The second reason against bounce is Nimble Mongoose.
If you like force spike that much, keep it.Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
This is exactly the sort of thing that grinds threads down to a halt. Comments like this just aren't constructive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dembones
With a deck like MUC, there is never going to be one build that is the best. With a deck like this, you should be able to build it to beat any given deck you like - you just have to know the field. Things like Tendrils Combo will do the same thing against every deck - MUC is reactive and needs to have a boat load of answers - deciding on the 3 or 4 threats you are going to be running should take a lot less effort than the other 56 cards.
I think what this thread really needs is when people post a list or ideas, they need to explain what they are trying to achieve - what weakness their choice improves, and what decks are in their metagame that they are trying to beat (true of every thread really, and the cause of much frustration for a LOT of people I'm sure)
If we have a sort of Chinese menu to pick up the pieces we needed to shore up weak match-ups then I really feel the deck could get somewhere.
Don't pick me up on this because it is a really quick scribble, but something like:
Countermagic:
Aggro - force spike, force of will
Combo - spell snare, force spike
Control - counterspell, forbid
This way the deck can be tuned and changed from tournament to tournament with relative ease.
Posting a list and saying -
"this is my list... thoughts?"
"do what you want, I don't care"
"ok, you like force spike, I like spell snare - let's just leave it at that"
it just doesn't get us anywhere.
</rant>
I can see that engineered explosive without a splash was a bad idea.
Some pages ago, there was a debate whether to run back to basics or nevinyrral’s disk.
However, now, it seems that all of you decided on btb even saying that it’s an auto-include.
If I want to run back to basics along with powder keg and force spike, I don’t have enough spots:
24 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Spell snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Think Twice
4 back to basics
4 Vedalken shackles
4 powder keg
3 win-conditions
have to cut 3 three cards.
As for the win-condition discussion:
Normally, our win-condition is vedalken shackles; however, this is not the case if we play against combo (or control) since they don’t play many creatures. So we may look for a win-condition which kills faster than morphling in order to be able to set those decks on a clock.
I thought of vendilion clique, unfortunately she is a legend.
I'm still not understanding why Morphling is not a viable win condition anymore. Sure, it can no longer do neat combat tricks, but it's still as effective a method of winning the game as any, correct? I don't understand playing cards like Meloku that are pretty fragile compared to Morphling. I've used Morphling in my MUC builds for its following abilities in this order: Shroud, Flying, pseudo-Vigilance, combat tricks. The combat tricks, while neat, are almost never necessary to win a game. All the other, still-valid, Morphling abilities make it an effective win-con. (For reference, I run 2x Morphling, 1x CtS, 3x Sower, plus 3 Shackles).
@Jason :
@Tea also , as we have almost the same approach of the deck :
Thanks for you advices,
I'll try the call the Sky instead meloku;
Regarding to the Powder keg in main , the issue is that I conceive the deck as a compact deck , I mean like burn or Deadguy ale (mono balck version)
therefore, I like playing 4 copies of each card , because each card has its own function, and what I intend is to keep those numbers intact, I mean , sure I can run 3 vedalken and 3 B2B and put in those slots powder kegs istead, but for sure then I get angry when in a landstill match up I don't draw B2B because of playing 3 and not 4, for example.
Maybe 4 powder keg will replace 4 Spike , but as I said I DO not like this change, spike in here seems to be to powerfull to not to run in because of B2B .
How would you build the side , according to the base before explained apart from the 4 powder?
and how would you side vs the different match ups?
Regarding to the mana base I'll try first 23, but probably I'll see 24 is the correct number as experience only can demonstrate...
I think a suitable side could be :
4 powder k, // absolutly a must
4 relic of p // In my opinion this is a must
4 BEB // a must too
3 stifles/ propaganda / the I don't know card
Exactly. I very rarely, if ever, used morphling to kill opposing creatures in combat. When I have found myself playing morphling, it would be to win...not as defense. I had played it as defense before, but fogging is just as well in most situations anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
I see myself adding Teferi or masticore to my creatures(2x morphling 1x CoS) before using Meloku or Oona.
Edit: Force spike is also very useful for fucking an opponent's plays late game. You may not counter something specifically, but you may be causing one card to not be played as a result. Something else to keep in mind is that if you make it to lategame and you opponent isn't running genesis or something like that, chances are you have won because you will have ideally dropped a land almost every turn, which means that you should be able to trade with basically any play your opponent makes. On top of that, you also have a means of getting your hand outright refilled, whereas outside of confidant, loam and standstill, raw CA like that is difficult to find in many popular decks.
I find force spike/disrupt to be useful for the mid game hump when an opponent basically tries to push through your one for one by using a combination of baiting and trying to beat you ability to trade one for one with efficient cards, which is not hard in 1.5. Single mana counters are very useful for the midgame push. I shouldn't have to mention this, but I will anyway: if you get through the big midgame push and your opponent is effectively playing off the top minus a few cards left in their hand and you have even the same amount of cards left in your hand, but more lands and obviously one counter, you basically win. There have been so many times when I was sitting with a hand of lands and a kill creature or superfluous keg/disk post-push and my opponent just sat across from me and drew and said go because he assumed I was holding at least one counter spell, but expecting more. Not everyone does this obviously, but I have always noticed that if I get through the push and they run out of gas and I am able to refill, I win.
@ Pelikanudo
Probably, you will lose to combo.
That's why I would cut 4 relic of progenitus and 3 stifles and add 4 chalice of the void and 3 vendilion clique. However, the SB depends on the metagame. Relic of progenitus is definitely a useful card.
So with M10 rules, I guess there's really no more reason to run Morphling versus Skybreaker?
What seems to be the most commonly agreed draw engine for the deck? Fact of Faction? Ancestral Visions?
Would Tidespout Tyrant be a good choice of another win condition?
How about a janky creature like Deep-Sea Kraken?
Cheap to suspend and is unblockable after it comes out, though it's probably too slow.
It wasn't really meant to be some sort of negative response, and if that's how it was received, forgive me.Quote:
Originally Posted by slobad23
I suggested a discussion in running some answer to resolved threats that made it through your counter wall when you were without Shackles or whatever. He clearly is more comfortable with the extra counter in force spike, and his reasoning is sound, who am I to argue further when he's already convinced?
Your post came off as though "well he's not gonna listen, fuck him and just let him do what he wants".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dembones
Granted, it's hard to interpret the exact tone of posts at times, but it helps to clarify after the fact.
Reading it now it does come off a bit... short. I wanted to go further into it, but it was almost four a.m., and I needed to go to bed, so I just ended it. Bad form on my part.
Wow, there's two posts on this same page from myself and Mordel discussing the continued viability of Morphling as a win-con, and not two posts later we're somehow back into an alternate win condition discussion because Morphling "sucks" now. Juh?
@ Pelikanudo
+1 for Tea's response. Stifle is weak sauce for sure and unless you want to completely give up the combo matchup I would recommend Chalice. Chalice is also a tank against Zoo/Goyf Sligh/Burn and it protects your Sowers from 3/4 of the removal in the format. My SB looks like: 4 Propaganda (aggro/Ichorid), 3 BEB (swap these for grave-hate if your meta calls for it), 3 Pithing Needle (against Top/Factory/Survival), 3 Chalice of the Void, 2 Jace Beleren (control mirror). I also play Keg main in case you were wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
I am not sure if you are referring to me, but I never stated that Superman "sucks". Sure, he's worse due to the rules change and is also not the super-power he used to be, but he's not bad by any stretch.
I was merely "Brainstorming" with other creatures that blue may use, though there isn't much other than the Superman.
I have run CoS as an another win con since IBA(if I recall) suggested it and I begrudgingly went ahead and tested it because it seemed like something that I should test before just disagreeing with and I ended up liking it.
I'd run something like two morphlings and one CoS as wincon creatures and three shackles or something like that. There probably isn't anything wrong with sower, but I haven't got around to testing them and unless they're complimented with Kigas, I don't really see myself wanting to run a virtual control magic. Sorcery speed...weak body...a permanent that makes slots in my opponent's deck no longer dead. Feh. With Kiga, I bet they're some good, but MUC isn't on the top of my playtesting priorities right now since I am trying to find a deck that is as unaffected as possible from M10 rules that has already proven itself to be a competitor. MUC struck me as a deck that people either have a really good meta niche for or continue to play out of sheer stubborness a while back when I was testing it. Many of the top decks in the format are problem matches, so while MUC might make a big comeback when the meta shifts again, I don't really like using it online where it is basically 80% tier one decks to beat and 20% jank like pox and lesser tier decks which are a mixed bag.
If there was still a 1.5 place back home, I would totally rep MUC because I manage to win matches that I often have no business winning IRL, but on MWS shit talking/mind games and reading opponents isn't really something you can do to any great effect.
Judging by deckcheck, MUC isn't really so great many places right now.
Morphling is still about as good as he was, however, I never found room for him in my list, as rainbow efreet is easier to protect early pressure, and CtS is almost inevitable once it gets online. Morphling's best feature, in my opinion, was that he could answer mid-range aggro by eating their creatures, letting you win damage races all by himself. Some people swear by morphling, others find him not quite good enough. Your best bet is to test him yourself and see if he fits your playstyle and meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappa
As far as draw engines, most decks run a combination of small early draws and big bomb draws.
The big bombs are Fact or Fiction and Ancestral Visions. I prefer Fact as it isn't a terrible late game top deck and digs deeper. Also, it combos well with the rest of my draw suite and with CtS. Visions is an awesome early game play, and has the advantage of keeping your opponent in the dark on your new resources. Once again, its a meta/personal preference call.
The early draw usually falls into one of 4 sets: Accumulated knowledge, brainstorm + fetches, impulse, and think twice. AK is an oldie but a goodie that gives some serious draw power late game, but is the slowest of the options. brainstorm + fetches digs deep, gives you filtering ability to send back dead cards, and the ability to splash cards to shore up weaknesses in MUC such as enchantment and creature removal. However, it also opens you up to stifles and nonbasic hate, things that MUC traditionally uses to its advantage by making them dead cards for our opponents. Also, brainstorm is less than ideal when you don't have a fetchland or shuffle online. Impulse digs the deepest, but never generates card advantage. Think twice is my personal choice, as its flashback ability usually prevents opponents from countering your cantrip, and it draws the most cards of the bunch, save Accumulated Knowledge. Even then, you have to cast all 4 AK's to draw more than Think Twice. The two biggests downsides I have found to Think Twice is how slowly it gets the draw engine rolling (7 mana for 3 cards and usually 3 turns, vs 4 mana for 3 cards in 2 turns with AK) and that, when combined with CtS, it makes graveyard hate a viable sideboard option for all those dead cards against us. In the end, once again, it's a personal call.
Small side note, Jace works well as a 1-of for supporting both the draw suite and the win conditions.
Tidespout Tyrant costs more than even CtS for the same body, doesn't protect himself well, and if we need bounce, we need it early game to keep us alive, not late game when shackles and kegs should be online.
Finally, MUC is a very odd creature in that there are many designs to it, and a lot of the slots are meta dependent. It has worked best for me to just tinker tinker tinker with the deck and sideboard against known decks in the area, until you can make the basic plays in your sleep and only need to really concentrate on the tricky stuff.
This is embarrassing. I lost to a Standard deck with my Legacy MUC. Why...
First off, I love MUC as it has an answer to everything. See counterspell. What would one do though, as an answer to.. Cascade Swans :cry:. I've been playing some local Legacy tourneys lately, and have never had trouble, especially when I play MUC. Dredge game me trouble one time, but I was prepared packing 3 Tormod's and 4 Relics in the SB. We ended up splitting 1st/2nd rather than playing out the 3rd game, as we had gone 1-1. The meta is usually fairly janky, with Standard/ experimental legacy decks, and the rare real Legacy deck. In the past there's been cascade Living End, Cascade Hypergenesis, Berserk stompy, Red aggro, Goblins, and Wildfire. Seeing such a varied meta, I always feel safe bringing good ole' MUC. But things got ugly last Tuesday.
Here's the list I played:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Counterspell
2 Prohibit
3 Forbid
1 Misdirction
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
4 Treachery
1 Shackles
4 Powder Keg
1 Guile
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Factories
3 Quicksand
12 Island
SB:
4 Relic
3 Tormod's
3 Propaganda
5 other cards that never mattered
Anyway, I walked through every game until I came to last which was Cascade Swans. Every spell they play is 2, and they do nothing the first 4 turns of the game which my deck it geared to beat. What is a good way to deal with this deck, or is it just one of those enigmas not meant to be solved? I lost the first game as my plan was to shackles/treachery his elf beatz but it was just too slow. The second game I squeaked by by early factory attacks because I realized I didn't need open mana, and a timely Misdirection on the Green command for lifegain. Third game he boarded in Underworld dreams which snuck through as I attacked with factories. It was a slow and painful death. This is where I regretted playing only 1 finisher. Every other game I won through theft or manlands, or a timely Guile; I never felt like more than 1 was ever needed. But this game it became a race where manlands where just too slow.
So, what does one do to beat this deck? Double negative? Janky. More finishers? Possibly, maybe even the Polymorph/Progenitus, but that's just ugly against real Legacy decks packing swords and such. What are your suggestions?
BTW: I'm a big fan of the Chalices/Dazes. Feel free to question them, and I'll do my best to defend them as they have done very well for me.
@ Scrabble
Pithing Needle shuts down their Assaults, as well as their many manlands. The Propaganda's should help a lot, as they slow down Bloodbraids and REALLY slow down their manland plan.
Are you worried about your opponent comboing on you? I don't see how any player could resolve two seperate sorcery-speed spells against you with minimum to no protection.
Also, as a creative way to answer manland, Volrath's Stronghold, and Academy Ruins troubles, you could try putting Annex in your board, essentially allowing you to Treachery their manlands. This also is a tempo boost by denying them mana, and accelerating you.
As long as you can land and keep a Pithing Needle on SA, you can treat Swans as a really bad version of 43lands with inefficiently-costed beaters.
The most recent list losing to a type two deck doesn't surprise me at all.