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It is worth, as long as you add the counter package as well... there's no reason, if splashing blue, for not running Mental Misstep, Daze and FoW, except the budget reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
And Invigorate is way too good not to run, even without Kavu. Believe me, my last version of monogreen featured Zealot instead of Kavu and Invigorate was still a MVP. And Seal as well, helping smooth the mana into huge Berserks.
With about half your spells then being blue it is not really splashing but a new deck. It might be better to start with a blue deck that is splashing green for Berserk and some pumps...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
True, will do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
The counter suite seems obvious, but not really suited for this deck (NO budget concerns). For my list, a very combo oriented version, the win condition is 1 creature + 3 pumps. Adding counters dilute the plan, not to mention the FOW pitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Furthermore, why does this deck need counters? Storm decks fold to counters because of getting X-1 ed, but not to discards, the 1-1 trades. This deck gets X-1 ed by spot removals, and Hexproof gets around it. Without the fear for spot removals, there is no point to play Mental Misstep. Counters can be threatening if they aim at your critical pump spells, but only when you have no backups in hand. Therefore, instead of playing counters, having more pump spells (especially more *2/*1 effects) is a more effective solution. Against discards, more pumps is also better than more counters. Counters are only good against combos faster than us, for which we can try to address in the SB.
As the cheap Hexproofers are 1/1s, pump spells should be at least +4/+4 to enable the 3 pumps kill. Unstable Mutation and Rancor do not fit. Invigorate is only better than +3/+3s when 2 *2/*1s are involved, but it is free, and there are no other qualified +4/+4s.
I never said Stalker > Legalwalker, but I play 8 Legalwalkers now + 4 GSZ. The redundancy is critical for the combo plan. For the blue splash, it is a pity not to have FOW or Misstep, but don't forget the best blue card is Brainstorm, and Brainstorm is the god in combo decks.
I've posted a list regarding the Blue Zerk with counters at another thread.
@tsabo_tavoc
I disagree, if you are using subpart power-per-mana ratio, and intend to go "combo", the counter suit will do two things for you:
a) counter opposing counters, protecting your combo
b) help your creatures surviving
c) counter opposing walls
Of course hexproof already is a lot resiliant in the surviving plan, but still, with that amount of unblockable hexproof creatures, you don't need threat density, with ~12 of these, you are praticaly assured to stick a beater. I managed to fit ~12 creatures with ~18 pumps in the list.
Besides, the deck need counters because they can counter your Berserks when you don't have another. At least in my view, the deck is way better with the counter suit, if you are going to use blue.
Another thing worth noting is that Jitte works wonders with 8~12 silhanas. Really worth using it.
This is my current Hexproof Stompy idea:
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Invisible Stalker
2 Sylvan Library
4 Rancor
4 Briar Shield
4 Unstable Mutation
2 Berserk
4 Daze
4 MM
4 FoW
4 Tropical Island
8 Fetches
4 Forest
2 Islands
2 cards still needs to be removed.
You already answered b) and c) are not the concerns for 12 Ledgewalker.dec. For a), if they counter a creature, go and find another Legalwalker. Most probably, they try to x-1 you by countering your critical pump spell, in which case, having 4 pumps is similar as having 3 pumps + 1 counter. My philosophy is overloading pumps to win the counter war. The density I referred was pump density, not creature density. I play 8 Berserks AND 4 BRAINSTORM to maintain the redundancy of *2/*1, losing a Berserk to a counter becomes usually affordable. The only slop for my philosophy is pump costs 1 but counters are free, that is why I play Noble Hierarch which is mana + pump.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Now, let's examine the flaws for playing counters as protection. The key problem is that they are conditional. Mental Misstep only counters Misstep and Discard, but another pump counters any counters and discard spells. Daze is even worse, how would any permission deck tap out and counter your spell on your turn 3/4? FOW is the only universal counter, and you know you would rather have 1 mana + 1 pump spell than 1 card in hand + 1 FOW.
That said, counters are good to address b) and a) in traditional Berserk Stompy, and Infect Stompy. I play 4 Misstep + 4 FOW + 2 Daze in GUb Infect Stompy. I sacrifice the pump density there because only 2 of them are required for a combo finish. Even there, the MVP blue card is Brianstorm. However, with only Hexproof and evasive creatures, 12 Ledgewalker.dec does not want counters. I would only sideboard Mental Misstep against decks having 8+ 1cc disruptions (Mental Misstep, Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition), but few decks pack them.
Jitte is a good suggestion. 4 mana is a lot, but it stores pumps and after 2 attacks, it is only 1 Berserk away from victory. The -1/-1 is good against Bob and Clique (Legalwalker blocker), and in certain circumstances Welder and Arbor. The life gain is mostly irrelevant. I would fit 1-2 in, likely -1 Bogle, -1 pump.
Ok, I can see where you are going... So maybe it's worthy for you to run the counters as sideboard. They are still good solutions to opposing combos, and with bogle, stalker, brainstorm, misstep, you could easily afford FoW.
I think that 4 Groundswell could be 4 Seal of Strength to smooth the mana and the first turn drops.
Jitte really looks strong. Maybe even running 3 of it, since it's an excelent alternative plan and it still pumps for Zerk. And :4: payed as :2:+:2: is not that hard, since you already need 2 for most of your creatures, and still needs 3 for a GSZ to turn into a Silhana.
I don't think pairing the this deck with counters is a good idea. Adding counter spells in our deck would mean we'll have to lessen some pump or creature slots just to squeeze in these counter spells.
Just a suggestion, if you really would want to use counter spells with berserk, why not go the UG infect way. The cantrips and counter spells in this deck are use to protect his, not the other way around.
here's what i have for that:
4 tropical island
2 bayou
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacomb
4 inkmoth nexus
4 distortion strike
4 daze
4 mental misstep
4 brainstorm
4 blighted agent
4 Glistener Elf
2 plague stinger
4 mutagenic growth
4 invigorate
4 bounty of the hunt
4 berserk
*Or you can just go to the UG_infect thread over at the N&DD to see what are they discussing.
:)
And as of the moment, i haven't use this deck, since May I think, because spot removals and MM are rampant here . Here's what i have regarding the berserk stompy topic:
6 G_fetches
1 drayd arbor
8 forest
2 wasteland
1 xantid swarm
2 skyshroud cutter
4 kavu predator
4 esg
1 thrun the last troll
1 scryb ranger
4 noble
2 wall of blossoms
1 tarmogoyf
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of vastwood
3 Reverent silence
4 GSZ
2 Worldly tutor
2 Sylvan library
:)
Hello there again fellow green maniacs!
I just came home from a 60 plus man legacy tournament here in Manila and I finished with a 4-2 record.
In chronological order, my matches were:
burn (1-2)
belcher (2-1)
sneak show (2-1)
NO rug (1-2)
merfolk (2-0)
goblins (2-0)
RE: belcher
G1: he had a strong turn two wherein he was able to produced 14 gob tokens. In my turn two, i just dropped a skarrgan then pass. In his turn 3, he swang all his token bringing me to 5. My upkeep, i looked at his life, 20. Looked my hand 1 berserk, 1 invigorate, 1 might of old krosa, 1 forest. Looked at my table, 1 skarrgan and 2 forest. Then at his side, a taiga and a bunch of tapped gob tokens. Then drew a card, another might of old krosa. Dropped my 3rd forest, attack my lone creature which was pumped two MOOK, invigorate and berserk. sweet!
G2: he fucked me on his turn one belcher. BANG...
G3: he went off via belcher. But I was luckythat his deck revealed his lone taiga on the 5th flip. Dealing only 8 damage to me. From there, he never recovered. Two jungle lions with rancors on each gave me the win! :)
RE: sneaky show
G3: I was able to bring his life to one before his sneak attack came and emrakul innahilating all my permanents. On my turn, I drew a land which i played. Then pass. He drew, but just shook his head. Then pass. I drew a rushwood legate, dropped it for free. He smiled. On his turn, he drew a card ... extended his hand. OH YEAH! Another sweet win for the berserk stumpy deck vs combo decks.
RE: gobs
G2: On my table i had a lone shilhana with rancor on her while he had a batallion of goblins. I think I was down to 9 when all his gobs swang for 24 damage, but they met my fog. :) Shilhana with enchancers (invigorate, MOOK, berserk) gave me the win when i got back my turn.
In the end, i landed with a 4-2 record.
I had a bad tie breaks that's why i did not make it in the T8.
All I know is that I would really like to be able to afford the UG Version xD
Hello there again!
I went in a tournament where a PR-pass was the top prize.
We only had it 4 rds. Here's my matches:
aluren (0-2)
GW mavs (2-1)
UB reanimator (0-2)
rg beats (2-0)
RE: aluren
Aluren into imperial into bird then bird, GG. I was not expecting this deck to be around.
RE: GW mavs
G3: in his 3rd turn, he casted mirran crusader. my 3rd turn, skarggan 2/2 plus MOOK plus 2 berserk = priceless!
RE: reanimator
iona and archon killed my dream of getting a PR-pass
RE: rg beats
3 of my kavus went 5/5 which were to much for him to handle.
PREY UPON - G
Sorcery
Target creature you control fights target creature you don't control.
(They deal damage to each other)
It certainly seems like a sideboard answer to things like Peacekeeper or an annoying blocker. It is not really a punp though so I doubt it warrants main deck.
PREY UPON - G
Sorcery
Target creature you control fights target creature you don't control.
(They deal damage to each other)
It certainly seems like a sideboard answer to things like Peacekeeper or an annoying blocker. It is not really a punp though so I doubt it warrants main deck.
This card sure looks interesting. Among its usages, it includes:
Might of Old Krosa a 2/2 (making it 6/6) -> Prey Upon a Tarmogoyf -> Attack without a blocker
Hmm, all these new cards really seem interesting. I think I'll have to take out my Berserk and get it for some new testing :)
All these new Hexproof guys allow us to play strong cards we wouldn't do before, and prey upon is awesome. Sweet, Sweet!!!
Name: Ambush Viper
Cost: 1{G}
Type: Creature - Snake
Pow/Tgh: 2/1
Rules Text: Flash
Deathtouch
Doubles as unpredicted beater and removal for attacking creatures... hmmm
Deathtouch is nice and I do like the surprise factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Finally. Vines for one mana!
Ranger's Guile G
Instant
Target creature you control gets +1/+1 and gains hexproof until end of turn
I'm playtesting a Peasant version (just to get extra value out of my Berserks), and someone suggested Wild Mongrel.