So assuming you lose game 1, boarding in 2 MBT's will win you game 2? It just sounds unlikely. How often will they be in your opening 7? Are you going to agressively mull into them?Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
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So assuming you lose game 1, boarding in 2 MBT's will win you game 2? It just sounds unlikely. How often will they be in your opening 7? Are you going to agressively mull into them?Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
This. And seriously, since when are people preparing to play against Belcher? Are you facing the deck that often in tournaments? I think you're kind of overreacting to the decks you lost to in your first tournament. Just because something beats you once, that doesn't mean that a) you're going to see it very often, and b) it will regularly beat you. If you feel like you need to do something against this, try out the UBR version of the deck. These lists usually play more discard which hurts Belcher quite a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Belcher?! It's a good matchup already. Chant in response to Seething Song is basically game. If they win the die roll and make 10 goblins, you take your turn and make 10,12, or 14...The only way you really ever lose is to a T1 belcher+ activation...
I know basic magic strategy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
Its a local meta, I play the belcher player every week as both of us tend to find each other at the top of the standings (played it all three tournaments in a row since they started with affinity first). Obviously it would be different at a larger meta. So far, i've liked gold fishing the main deck changes.
What's is the point of discussing this here then? Just stick 4 Mindbreak Traps in your SB and be happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
Belcher is easy, right? On the play you keep a hand with Duress or Chant and win, on the draw you keep a hand that kills on 2 and you win if they don't Belch you.
YEAH!!! And flip all of them with Ad Nauseam...Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
Boy, this threat is beginning to stink....
Ok, let's say you did get a fast start and go T1 Ad Nauseam flipping 3 Mindbreak Traps. How is Belcher supposed to win now?Quote:
Originally Posted by ComboMan
Unless he sided in Xantid Swams, you can drop lands and sculpt a perfect hand to win with a loop or goblins.
Beginning? There's a reason I stopped posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComboMan
Mind Break trap is a terrible idea. Even post Nauseam if you flip three and somehow live. You should be trying to win the game, not drag it out.
They can probably kill you fairly effortlessly with Land Grant, Mox, go, Rit, Belcher, go, Diamond, kill you.
Anyway.
I've been testing against Counterbalance more. I like the configuration of 4 Thoughtseize / 3 Duress main with sideboarded Pyroblasts against Counterbalance quite a bit, and with a Reverent Silence in the board I feel like a favorite against the Natural Order lists that have basically no counterspells. Playing against lists like Martell's is harder, but still not totally insurmountable. Essentially, it boils down to having more ways to fight a Counterbalance instead of having a Xantid Swarm against their lock. You also don't get the awkward hands where you have Swarm, Rite, Ritual but only two initial mana sources. (edit: is there a way to fix this by playing like a Bayou instead? The problem is that I usually get pissed off when I draw Swamp naturally, and I think this just exacerbates that)
Xantid Swarm is still the blade against Madness and Merfolk, though, and being able to play Swarm on one or two and forcing them to trade Force of Will for it rather than playing a Thoughtseize and just getting Pierced comes up rather frequently. Unsure which configuration I like more; more testing probably necessary.
I jam Confidants basically just for the mirror. I think it's the best card to have in a Duress fight. I guess you could conceivably Trap or Chant people; I bring Confidant in against slow do-nothing decks but I'm also a pretty heavy favorite against slow do-nothing decks anyway so mise. Chant is actually kinda loose because if your opponent plays Duress against you and takes like your Infernal or whatever leaving you with Chant, he can play a Confidant and find more ways to root out your Chant if he needs to.
edit2: An interesting option against Counterbalance is adding Reverent Silence to the sideboard and cutting the Pyroblasts. Pyroblast is pretty atrocious at defending Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor, so all it's really good for is fighting Counterbalance. If you have Reverent Silence, you don't need to be as afraid of Counterbalance, plus Thoughtseize/Duress are almost as good for fighting Counterbalance except in situations where you're a) on the draw and they have Brainstorm or b) you Pyroblast a Counterbalance when they also have Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, or Counterspell in their hand, and you go off on the turn they're tapped out from the Counterbalance. You end up with their Plows still being live if you stay on Swarms, but that's not the end of the world.
Are you adding 4x Reverent Silence instead to come in post-board? That I can maybe see. But it is only good against one match-up. At least Pyroblast is not completely worthless against Merfolk or Landstill. However, one in the board is no good: Burning Wish into Reverent Silence is less than exciting. I had one in my Belcher sideboard for the longest time, doing absolutely nothing. My issue was always this: if the opponent didn't counter the Wish, then why not just win the game?Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
The idea of using duress instead of chant is very appealing because you don't need a rainbow land for disruption. It also gives us a better chance of hitting CB or Top. On the other hand it almost certainly precludes us from reliably using the Iggy loop from the board when the opponent is playing the appropriate instant speed disruption.
What if you could also just set up for extra mana against those decks and get back Duress + Tutor off IGG to fight through a Force?Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
It's always a tradeoff. You are right in what you say about conterspell decks but of course more mana and storm usually takes more time. Against decks with burn and mana open though I see a definite benefit to silence/chant.Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
All this talk about Iggy loops with Duress over Chant make me feel like running Cabal Ritual again..Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
This sounds like the start of an infomercial advertising your own version of storm using Cabal Ritual and Grim Tutors.Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
Against blue, I think it basically comes down to Xantid Swarm is the best against Merfolk/UG Madness, Pyroblast is the best against CB, and Confidant is good against slower decks like Landstill while also having value in some other matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Xantid is really good right now, but personally, I don't like the hoops you have to jump through to play Xantid in a 3 color list (which, I guess, then becomes a 4 color list). I think the manabase is already stretching itself so much to reliably hit R, U, and B in the first place, and adding a Tropical Island to the mix isn't helping things. Decks you want Xantid against are also often the decks you're most concerned about having Wasteland too, which only makes things more difficult.
I also think that Pyroblast is better in Bryant's list than in a list with Duress+Thoughtseize because of its synergy with Orim's Chant, though its still the card I want most against CB even without Chants. Having Pyroblast as your only protection with Infernal Tutor or LED sucks either way, of course. Actually sideboarding in copies Reverant Silence against CB seems like a bad idea because of Ad Nauseam.
Anyway, thanks for trying to keep discussion going unlike some people.
Playing some random games on MWS brougt me to a few conclusions.
1. Chant/Silence is much more elegant than I first gave it credit for.
It makes IGG and Dimishing Returns practically 1 sided.
It usually pulls 2 cards from the opponents hand when they are playing against blue which is their FoW and their least relevant other card. This is often irrelevant because CA is nice but often not important as stopping the storm combo player. It does become more important when either the opponent has 2 FoW and only 3 blue cards total in hand or in a game that draws out.
2. It seems that no-one is preparing for storm combo any more. We might lose to a CB deck but I'm pretty sure that they will get steam rolled by Vengevival. We got to lose to something, and I would rather have my worst matchup to a deck that is getting raped pretty hard at the moment.
3. Diminishing Returns is sublime. It is an elegant solution often bridging the EtW and pray method to a clean kill with Tendrils. It can also create an obcene amount of CA if you drop your hand quick and get it off while your hand is empty and you have some artifact mana on the board while all your opponent has is 1 land down. Not to mention you might also win the game. This is also true with IGG but it doesn't have quite the same level of effect.
My biggest challenge with this deck is knowing when to risk it and go for EtW or wait a turn and try for Tendrils vs. CB decks packing EE. Obviously waiting a turn may allow them to drop EE, CB, or find a little more disruption. Does anyone have any rough guidelines from experience and/or statistics?
The longer you wait to play Empty the Warrens, the worse it gets. That's unless you cast it with an absurd storm count.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
Epiphany: The TES former list, is better against Zoo....
No it doesn't. It sounds like you don't play storm very much because I've been doing that since Iggy Pop. I've done it in Iggy Pop, TES, Grim Iggy, Fetchland Tendrils, DDFT, ANT, and NLS. Just because his ANT list can do it doesn't mean that TES can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxflow2
You really don't play if you think Confidant has value against a deck with so much removal that it can't board it all out against us.Quote:
Against blue, I think it basically comes down to Xantid Swarm is the best against Merfolk/UG Madness, Pyroblast is the best against CB, and Confidant is good against slower decks like Landstill while also having value in some other matchups.
The best list I've ever played against Zoo has 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Duress maindeck and brings in Thoughtseize and 4 1-2 mana bounce spells.