[Deck] Dredge

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hollywood

That is my exact main-board and sideboard...except I have the Firestorms and another Grudge in there. I'm still debating what to remove and put in their place, though.

---

Really? Awesome :laugh:. Yeah, I can't think of anything I'd change other then the Leylines' (and my recent desire for the 12th dredger) either, the list is SO tight and just feels unfair 99% of the time.

I mean yesterday against maverick I DDD'd for giggles on the draw into his t2 GSZ->Ooze. My turn 2; dredged up the imp, LED + Coliseum from hand, DR, swing for lethal... Cutting Firestorm really feels like the right call, like you said, we can outrace anything but nut draws and even then can handle it unless our deck shits on us. The deck leaves me speechless most of my games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iPhael

Also, If I were to run 12 land, with none in the board, I would certainly advocate Nether Shadow in place of the Ashen Ghoul. Just as food for thought.

---

I agree. 8 Gold Lands doesn't see to be enough to support additional Ashen Ghouls, not to mention that Wastelands would surely become more effective in the case where these lands would be scarce. In the configurations using Ashen Ghoul, adding more lands to the main deck (e.g. 14 total) would surely save the necessary SB space.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

My LED build is the quad. It's in the OP of the primer.
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Chain of Vapor(will be Nature's Claim most likely)
4 Leyline otV
1 Ancient Grudge

The reason I don't have to cut stuff for PImp and the like is that I don't play fancy DR stuff. That's not for everyone,I imagine but works better than any other list so far for me.

I'd play 3 PImps, 3 Thugs 3 Ichorids if I were to play 2 DR and a target.

Edit: I don't really see a point in having more than 12 Lands total maindeck, if you were wondering how I fit all the cards in the MD:P

---

12 is definitely not enough, you need to either think about your ability to support your SB cards or how aggressively 12+ lands allows you to mulligan when necessary.

As an aside, I don't know if you guys ever see Peacekeeper, but he's arguably the biggest kick in the balls you'll wish you would have prepared for by playing 2xGolgari Thug and 1xDarkblast. It pays to differentiate those win condition and dredger slots, even ever so slightly.

12 Lands is really careless.

Really, cut two PImps and play two lands main. The PImps can go in the side, if people have the room for 3 Lands side they also have room for 2 PImps if the additional land are main. You'll mull a whole lot less hands. I promise. And judging by the fact that the only way this deck actually loses game 1 is through multiple mulligans or suboptimal hands, how could one argue against it?

In order to get the must busted hands you want Gold Land, discard outlet, Dredger, draw spell. Why would you go for a 8-16-12-16 ratio if you can easily make it 10-14-12-16? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm trying to find room for the 15th Land main right now. Getting flooded with 8 Lands in the deck and having 3 in play everytime is not what you should consider the rule. That should happen in maybe one game out of 20 (only a number I made up).


Ashen Ghoul is performing okay so far. Nonetheless, in a list with multiple Dread Returns and good standalone targets like Iona, Nether Shadow is presumably better. In a list with no DR (or if you don't plan on having a DR package in your deck post board against Extractions), Ashen Ghoul seems stronger.

Quote:

---

12 is definitely not enough, you need to either think about your ability to support your SB cards or how aggressively 12+ lands allows you to mulligan when necessary.

---

Yeah supporting your SB cards with only 12 lands seems really difficult. If only there would be a way to side in additional lands together with your SB hate, but I guess I'm living in magic christmas land here....

Quote:

---

As an aside, I don't know if you guys ever see Peacekeeper, but he's arguably the biggest kick in the balls you'll wish you would have prepared for by playing 2xGolgari Thug and 1xDarkblast. It pays to differentiate those win condition and dredger slots, even ever so slightly.

---

Haven't seem him since 2010, where I played him in my landstill SB, however there might be a chance that he'll see play in those UW Terminator decks ( though he doesn't look to hot together with Terminus).
But if he sees the daylight once more you are absolutly right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izor

Why would you go for a 8-16-12-16 ratio if you can easily make it 10-14-12-16? Doesn't make sense to me.

---

As stated above, I don't feel like I need more than 12 preboard. That's why I don't run more. Totally subjective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izor

Ashen Ghoul is performing okay so far. Nonetheless, in a list with multiple Dread Returns and good standalone targets like Iona, Nether Shadow is presumably better. In a list with no DR (or if you don't plan on having a DR package in your deck post board against Extractions), Ashen Ghoul seems stronger.

---

This.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

As stated above, I don't feel like I need more than 12 preboard. That's why I don't run more. Totally subjective.

---

I guess that preference is subjective, but the probabilities aren't. With only 8 Gold Lands among the 12 that you're running in the main deck (instead of maybe 10 Gold Lands, or even 12 in some builds), you have a significantly weaker chance of being able to hard-cast a Faithless Looting, Putrid Imp, or even a Cabal Therapy. LED surely helps in filling the gaps, but I personally feel that limiting the reliability of a large number of your spells is not a good idea.

As much as we would like to pack as many business spells and threats into the deck, I've always observed and believed that the main dependency of Dredge is on its Gold Lands (of course, Dredgers are a given), and it doesn't seem to be a good idea to weaken the base of our main dependency.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felidae

Yeah supporting your SB cards with only 12 lands seems really difficult. If only there would be a way to side in additional lands together with your SB hate, but I guess I'm living in magic christmas land here....



Haven't seem him since 2010, where I played him in my landstill SB, however there might be a chance that he'll see play in those UW Terminator decks ( though he doesn't look to hot together with Terminus).
But if he sees the daylight once more you are absolutly right.

---

SBing your Golden Lands in order to support your SB cards significatly reduces your ability to SB altogether, while cutting your 4th Putrid Imp and 12th Dredger for Golden Lands you expand your SB accordingly by moving your Golden Lands to your MD. That space is relevant when you're trying to fit in Chain of Vapor, additional recurring creatures, a DR package and the odd singletons like Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation etc. not to mention the frills of Firestorm or hate vs. other match ups.

Space is a serious concern in Dredge.

Edit: The reason I mentioned Peacekeeper is because I think it's going to make a comeback in response to Sneak Attack, also I think Darkblast is just pretty solid and has some additional utility to it like sending Narcomoebas to the grave etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izor

12 Lands is really careless.

Really, cut two PImps and play two lands main. The PImps can go in the side, if people have the room for 3 Lands side they also have room for 2 PImps if the additional land are main. You'll mull a whole lot less hands. I promise. And judging by the fact that the only way this deck actually loses game 1 is through multiple mulligans or suboptimal hands, how could one argue against it?

In order to get the must busted hands you want Gold Land, discard outlet, Dredger, draw spell. Why would you go for a 8-16-12-16 ratio if you can easily make it 10-14-12-16? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm trying to find room for the 15th Land main right now. Getting flooded with 8 Lands in the deck and having 3 in play everytime is not what you should consider the rule. That should happen in maybe one game out of 20 (only a number I made up).

---

This analysis is correct, and I've came to the same conclusion via a lot of simulations. You will mulligan way less in this case.

Also, the same is valid for Dredger. Why do people insist to cut the 4th Thug before the 4th or 3rd PImp, or even the 4th or 3rd Breakthrough. Really, reducing mulligan nightmare is all this deck should be doing @g1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gui

Also, the same is valid for Dredger. Why do people insist to cut the 4th Thug before the 4th or 3rd PImp, or even the 4th or 3rd Breakthrough. Really, reducing mulligan nightmare is all this deck should be doing @g1.

---

This is true. However, the number of Dredgers your build needs also depends on your other card choices.

For example, having more permanent discard outlets lets you play less Dredgers because you're way less dependent on finding a second Dredger with the first one. Also, having more Careful Study effects in the deck might also be an argument for less Dredgers, because they can find you the first one in the top 2 cards of your library if used as a turn 1 discard outlet.

That said, I think LEDless builds with multiple Tireless Tribes as well as Faithless Lootings needs the fewest (I'd say 11 is enough). The usual LED builds should certainly run 12 if they can, because there is nothing more frustrating than losing with the Land-LED-Dredger-Breakthrough-hand because you didn't find a second Dredge card with the first one.

And then again, if you want to be on the safe side, running 13 isn't wrong. Though I feel that cards like additional Gold lands and all 8 Careful Studies are more important for the decks explosiveness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gui

This analysis is correct, and I've came to the same conclusion via a lot of simulations. You will mulligan way less in this case.

Also, the same is valid for Dredger. Why do people insist to cut the 4th Thug before the 4th or 3rd PImp, or even the 4th or 3rd Breakthrough. Really, reducing mulligan nightmare is all this deck should be doing @g1.

---

I've tried playing PImpless and 2xPImp lists, the problem is Cephalid Coliseum becomes painfully inconsistent and you'll miss them post-board vs Tormod's Crypt - I usually have 7 permanent discard outlets between PImp and Tribe post-board -

Anybody else tried any number of Hapless Researchers?

Edit: I also think there's a bit of disynergy between removing PImps and adding lands, just because the PImps in your deck become more consistent with every land you add, and that's usually why you see a Dredger cut for a land before you see a PImp cut for one IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gui

This analysis is correct, and I've came to the same conclusion via a lot of simulations. You will mulligan way less in this case.

Also, the same is valid for Dredger. Why do people insist to cut the 4th Thug before the 4th or 3rd PImp, or even the 4th or 3rd Breakthrough. Really, reducing mulligan nightmare is all this deck should be doing @g1.

---

I have been running 11 dredgers for awhile now. On rare occassion I do whiff on an all in breakthrough, but it's hard to say if one more dredger would even have mattered. Outside of that I don't miss the 12th dredger.

Putrid Imp is amazing. He is particularly wonderful game 2 & 3, you know the games I tend to be losing. He is functional enough where I won't be cutting him from my maindeck either.

I do agree with cutting breakthrough down to three. It is the worst draw spell to have in multiples and is dependent on having another discard outlet to be maximized.

Still not sure the best number of gold lands maindeck, 9 or 10. I keep going back and forth on this one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felidae

Haven't seem him since 2010, where I played him in my landstill SB, however there might be a chance that he'll see play in those UW Terminator decks ( though he doesn't look to hot together with Terminus).
But if he sees the daylight once more you are absolutly right.

---

That's the thing. In Bottrop there were 3 guys playing 2-3 Peacekeeper in the board.

Quote:

---

SBing your Golden Lands in order to support your SB cards significatly reduces your ability to SB altogether, while cutting your 4th Putrid Imp and 12th Dredger for Golden Lands you expand your SB accordingly by moving your Golden Lands to your MD. That space is relevant when you're trying to fit in Chain of Vapor, additional recurring creatures, a DR package and the odd singletons like Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation etc. not to mention the frills of Firestorm or hate vs. other match ups.

Space is a serious concern in Dredge.

---

Can't argue about that, however I don't consider Firestorm / a DR package to be relevant cards to have in my sideboard.

It all comes down to personal preference and the way you build your deck.

Quote:

---

That's the thing. In Bottrop there were 3 guys playing 2-3 Peacekeeper in the board.

---

Really? Damn, guess that means we really have to bring back Darkblast, or simply win by turn 3. Playing Darkblast sounds like the better plan though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felidae

Can't argue about that, however I don't consider Firestorm / a DR package to be relevant cards to have in my sideboard.

It all comes down to personal preference and the way you build your deck.

Really? Damn, guess that means we really have to bring back Darkblast, or simply win by turn 3. Playing Darkblast sounds like the better plan though.

---

Or, you know, strip their hand and put the game out of reach for them.

Peacekeeper sees minimal play. Least of my worries.

Also, doesn't Flayer of the Hatebound make a Peacekeeper irrelevant in multiple ways?

Obv. it does. So what's your suggestion? Play a Flayer+DR board?Oo

Edit: Damn gotta think of sth new as my title thingy-.-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hollywood

That is my exact main-board and sideboard...except I have the Firestorms and another Grudge in there. I'm still debating what to remove and put in their place, though.

---

I have a question regarding Hollywoods and iPhaels lists. Though I fully understand the choice of Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in the Quadlaserlists due to their grindy/beatdown structure, I fail to understand why both of you use Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in your more comboish Versions.

Are there Situation where the DR Package is boarded out and the Ashen Ghoul beatdown is needed?

Also your Decklists a light on lands after Boarding. 9 Goldlands and 2 Ghouls vs 11 Goldlands and 3 Ghouls in Quadlaser postboard.

How does it play out for you? And is Nether Shadow a serious consideration for you two?

Greetings and Thx in advance
Mindlash

Quote:

---

Edit: Damn gotta think of sth new as my title thingy-.-

---

How about (HokusSchmokus) "beer goggles wont focus..." haha sorry bro couldnt resist

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mindlash

I have a question regarding Hollywoods and iPhaels lists. Though I fully understand the choice of Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in the Quadlaserlists due to their grindy/beatdown structure, I fail to understand why both of you use Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in your more comboish Versions.

Are there Situation where the DR Package is boarded out and the Ashen Ghoul beatdown is needed?

Also your Decklists a light on lands after Boarding. 9 Goldlands and 2 Ghouls vs 11 Goldlands and 3 Ghouls in Quadlaser postboard.

How does it play out for you? And is Nether Shadow a serious consideration for you two?

Greetings and Thx in advance
Mindlash

---

The way I figure it is at worst I can always feed Ashen Ghouls to Ichorids. It usually happens in games two and three where in some instances I play a little more conservative - just a little bit - and I'm able to get a few lands into play because I'm giving myself a little more time. In the match-ups where Ghoul would be necessary against Extraction, you can board in to another land.

Remember, my sideboard is shifting so although the Ghouls are in there now, there will probably be another gold land stuffed in there at some point.

Nether Shadow just doesn't do anything except feed Dread Returns. I know it beats for one, but realistically, you're bringing that in to improve access to your Dread Returns. Ashen Ghoul is in there as a faux-Ichorid, which is a completely different utility. I haven't really had any trouble with the thirteen lands as it stands, but I'm sure that at least one more gold land belongs in the board.