[Primer/Deck] High Tide

I will stick with 4 turnaround main.

Most argue about the Intuition and meditate numbers.

I hear 2/1 and 1/2 splits back and forth.

I used snapx2 to get multiple "high tides", to me it was more guaranteed than hoping for more from a spiral/draw spell.

Then it was just dig, untap, dig, uptap, snap SCM to tutor for more gas which was USZ.

Draw, untap, snap scm for the turnabouts over and over. It was quite efficient when I had no timespiral.

I definitely see the downside when I use a timespiral.
I will start with my newest list and go from there.
Once that's done I will slowly add candles, maybe 5-6 months but I won't be going to a GP or anything like that.


Trying to get a couple jackasses out of the lgs because they make it an unfun environment.

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Originally Posted by Sidneyious

I will stick with 4 turnaround main.

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Have you tried a build with Pore over the Pages?
I have tested it for a couple of days, and I was amazed how smooth it rolled (during combo).
I think it is an excellent replacement for candelabra (even better in some situations) and a build that runs 3 or 4 copies is definitely possible, and would probably be a good evolution for the deck.
After your 2nd high tide, mana generation is very good and you can often cast Blue Sun's Zenith on yourself for 15+ very early, de facto winning the game.

Also, Pore over the Pages allows you to go lighter on untap effects:
-Maybe you can move one turnabout in the sideboard so you can wish for it when needed
-Maybe you can even play a 2/1, 2/2, 3/1 split between Turnabout and Cloud of Faries. Faeries, while inferior from the raw power perspective, allow you to infinite with capsize (after 5 HT played) and cast USZ for millions.

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
12 Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
3 CMC 1 Counterspell (i think spell pierce and swan song are better than flusterstorm right now)
1 Pact of Negation
4 High Tide
2 Turnabout
2 Cloud of Faeries
4 Pore over the Pages
3 Cunning Wish
----
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Capsize
11 everything else you need

This would be a good starting point. Arguably, you want to drop 1 PotP for a Zenith, Intuition or Meditate maindeck, for those situations when you need to dig as deep as you can.

Just my opinion, but the card is definitely worth a try before falling into the oubliette.

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Originally Posted by Cave

Have you tried a build with Pore over the Pages?
I have tested it for a couple of days, and I was amazed how smooth it rolled (during combo).
I think it is an excellent replacement for candelabra (even better in some situations) and a build that runs 3 or 4 copies is definitely possible, and would probably be a good evolution for the deck.
After your 2nd high tide, mana generation is very good and you can often cast Blue Sun's Zenith on yourself for 15+ very early, de facto winning the game.

Also, Pore over the Pages allows you to go lighter on untap effects:
-Maybe you can move one turnabout in the sideboard so you can wish for it when needed
-Maybe you can even play a 2/1, 2/2, 3/1 split between Turnabout and Cloud of Faries. Faeries, while inferior from the raw power perspective, allow you to infinite with capsize (after 5 HT played) and cast USZ for millions.

"Deck"

This would be a good starting point. Arguably, you want to drop 1 PotP for a Zenith, Intuition or Meditate maindeck, for those situations when you need to dig as deep as you can.

Just my opinion, but the card is definitely worth a try before falling into the oubliette.

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That is an interesting card. Especially since it fulfills the role of turnabout and meditate post combo. Two things give me pause about playing in as high of numbers as you suggested. First, it isn't as good as Turnabout/Meditate pre combo. Turnabout can be used defensively before a turn 5 combo and Meditate can be good in certain matchups. Second, is it is sorcery speed, which makes it harder to find. The latter is in some ways an argument for more copies so that it easier to find, but that exacerbates the former downsides.

Nevertheless, it is worth testing. I have been advocating a color splash in place of candles but I have been curious to try a mono blue version with Pieces of the Puzzle. I might also add a copy or two of Pour over the Pages and see how it runs. The initial draft had 3 maindeck Meditate but Pour will replace some of those.

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Originally Posted by the driver

That is an interesting card. Especially since it fulfills the role of turnabout and meditate post combo. Two things give me pause about playing in as high of numbers as you suggested. First, it isn't as good as Turnabout/Meditate pre combo. Turnabout can be used defensively before a turn 5 combo and Meditate can be good in certain matchups. Second, is it is sorcery speed, which makes it harder to find. The latter is in some ways an argument for more copies so that it easier to find, but that exacerbates the former downsides.

Nevertheless, it is worth testing. I have been advocating a color splash in place of candles but I have been curious to try a mono blue version with Pieces of the Puzzle. I might also add a copy or two of Pour over the Pages and see how it runs. The initial draft had 3 maindeck Meditate but Pour will replace some of those.

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Concerning the niche/side usage of meditate and turnabout, I know what you're talking about and don't really know if it's an issue.
I played 3 tiny tournaments (15-25 ppl) and a big event (250+ people, i finished 4-1-2 drop) with the deck back in the day. During 20+ swiss rounds, I used both meditate and turnabout precombo maybe ...4-5 times? And that was 2 years ago.
I'd state (but that's my opinion) that 99% of the time, Pages is as good as Meditate and Turnabout pre-combo, which spells: no good.
The only *good* businness cards that we got pre-combo are cantrips and tutors; and unless they're printing better ones, we're stuck with Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain.
On the contrary, if we can improve our combo turn, well, i say a big yes to that.
I'd also like to add that, especially in this metagame, you don't really want to eot meditate and give Eldrazi Aggro time to topdeck additional lock pieces, or to trample over you with their hasty beaters; and you don't want to let UWr Miracles spin their tops one turn further. If eot meditate's not good against the two top-tier decks (a fairly big share of the metagame), then it's not good enough to be in the deck. I think you can play both Pages and Turnabout (and you should), but if you ask me, Meditate definitely has to go unless it's a singleton somewhere in the 75.

Concerning the non-wishability of the card: Who would build their Spiral Tide deck, running multiple copies of an untapper that is not a legal target for Cunning Wish or Merchant Scroll? Bleah, terrible! Oh wait. :tongue:

In conclusion, the thing is, one of the main reasons this deck is sometimes frustrating to play is that even if you manage to start the combo, at times you fizzle and lose to variance ("bad luck").
And when you fizzle, it's because you lack either mana or gas. This card, as you are correctly stating, provides both. If you look closely, it is very similar to frantic search, which is by the way banned, so I really see no reason to play less than three. Don't get me wrong, I haven't tested Pages very much (2 days, then I sleeved another deck for the tournament) and I confirm that it doesn't really solve Spiral Tide's precombo issues in the current meta, but comboing is way smoother when you can Scroll for a 2nd high tide (which you would do anyway) and then chain multiple copies of Pages into a million cards and and a million blue mana.
And that's all there is to it.

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Originally Posted by Cave

Concerning the niche/side usage of meditate and turnabout, I know what you're talking about and don't really know if it's an issue.
I played 3 tiny tournaments (15-25 ppl) and a big event (250+ people, i finished 4-1-2 drop) with the deck back in the day. During 20+ swiss rounds, I used both meditate and turnabout precombo maybe ...4-5 times? And that was 2 years ago.
I'd state (but that's my opinion) that 99% of the time, Pages is as good as Meditate and Turnabout pre-combo, which spells: no good.
The only *good* businness cards that we got pre-combo are cantrips and tutors; and unless they're printing better ones, we're stuck with Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain.
On the contrary, if we can improve our combo turn, well, i say a big yes to that.
I'd also like to add that, especially in this metagame, you don't really want to eot meditate and give Eldrazi Aggro time to topdeck additional lock pieces, or to trample over you with their hasty beaters; and you don't want to let UWr Miracles spin their tops one turn further. If eot meditate's not good against the two top-tier decks (a fairly big share of the metagame), then it's not good enough to be in the deck. I think you can play both Pages and Turnabout (and you should), but if you ask me, Meditate definitely has to go unless it's a singleton somewhere in the 75.

Concerning the non-wishability of the card: Who would build their Spiral Tide deck, running multiple copies of an untapper that is not a legal target for Cunning Wish or Merchant Scroll? Bleah, terrible! Oh wait. :tongue:

In conclusion, the thing is, one of the main reasons this deck is sometimes frustrating to play is that even if you manage to start the combo, at times you fizzle and lose to variance ("bad luck").
And when you fizzle, it's because you lack either mana or gas. This card, as you are correctly stating, provides both. If you look closely, it is very similar to frantic search, which is by the way banned, so I really see no reason to play less than three. Don't get me wrong, I haven't tested Pages very much (2 days, then I sleeved another deck for the tournament) and I confirm that it doesn't really solve Spiral Tide's precombo issues in the current meta, but comboing is way smoother when you can Scroll for a 2nd high tide (which you would do anyway) and then chain multiple copies of Pages into a million cards and and a million blue mana.
And that's all there is to it.

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I don't necessarily disagree with you.

It's clear I put more stock in Meditate. Certainly not the best versus Eldrazi. I think it is fine versus miracles since a counter war is inevitable. I like it best versus discard. Grixis delver and storm are also still solid chunks of the meta.

I put more stock in making sure I get to the point where I can cast High Tide --> Time Spiral and have them both resolve. My concern is having too high a density of cards (4 Pages, 2 Turnabout, etc) that don't help me do that induces variance Pre-Combo. Pre combo variance doesn't even give me the chance to enjoy post combo variance :). My point about not being tutorable was concerning post combo when I would want to cast it as much as possible and therefore want to scroll or wish for it if I could. The conclusion I was trying to draw was that I think there is a balance. Maybe it is two. Maybe three. I dunno, but my gut says four is too many. I haven't tested it, but I want to, and it sounds like you need to test more as well. So keep me up to date and I'll let you know how my end goes as well.

Had a good post about pore going then phone shut off.

LSS; I'd use pore over meditate but my problem is I get lands and countermagic I have no need for after a spiral.

So I want to try a single mana severance as my lgs has a few t1 win decks so I want to combo as soon as I can if I can even play a land.

I really need candles because you have to have so many lands to make up for it and I may just to countertop till I get candles.

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Originally Posted by Sidneyious

Had a good post about pore going then phone shut off.

LSS; I'd use pore over meditate but my problem is I get lands and countermagic I have no need for after a spiral.

So I want to try a single mana severance as my lgs has a few t1 win decks so I want to combo as soon as I can if I can even play a land.

I really need candles because you have to have so many lands to make up for it and I may just to countertop till I get candles.

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I'd be really tempted to go with Manipulate Fate over Severance, unless you're always struggling for colorless mana.

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

I'd be really tempted to go with Manipulate Fate over Severance, unless you're always struggling for colorless mana.

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It does cantrip, I can see that better than mana severance over the combo.

Still as a one of

Hey guys,

I have currently bought 3 candles since i cannot resist the monoblue goodness.
I have been running a pretty stock list(with 3 tops) however i added 2 Devastation tide into the maindeck.
The card has worked pretty well for me and in my opinion beats teferis realm for i'd say obvious reasons. Even if we dont face maindeck Chalice/counterbalance it bounces their gang at worst. I'd love to hear your opinion on the card. :)

As a sideboard card sure but it's only worth it if it's already in the deck and getting it on the draw or first few turns is bad.

I'd rather Echoing truth if I need a problem out of the way.

CB, chalice, hate bear of choice.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...32818c32bd.jpg

Where I'm at now, still need 2 fow for sure (ordering tonight), but not sure where to go for candless.

I'm using a proxy for the second meditate and love seeing the card.
Proxy for fow is counterspell.

Sideboard is a mess and mostly up in the air.

I'm liking the mainboard and I want to make my SB mostly graveyard hate.

Most opposing decks are nothing but a couple folks like to use t1 win decks.

And if I win g2 they go g3 and win.
So I'd have to win the play first and hope I have fow but that may not help from what I hear.
Really thinking about driving 29 miles to a different lgs than 10 blocks to jackasses that rip off kids in trade and always take top so the other players get nothing of a chance.

3-4 people always win, what's the point of playing(and paying) if you get nothing?

I know they are not having fun

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Originally Posted by Sidneyious

Most opposing decks are nothing but a couple folks like to use t1 win decks.

And if I win g2 they go g3 and win.
So I'd have to win the play first and hope I have fow but that may not help from what I hear.
Really thinking about driving 29 miles to a different lgs than 10 blocks to jackasses that rip off kids in trade and always take top so the other players get nothing of a chance.

3-4 people always win, what's the point of playing(and paying) if you get nothing?

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Woha, woha.
I can understand the frustration, and maybe you didn't express yourself too well... but i'm sorry to say that, if this is your attitude towards the game, then it's bad.

You should really question yourself:

1. Do I really expect to be rewarded just because I paid for my deck and the entry fee?
You shouldn't. Your opponents are paying too, both for the entry price and their decks. Probably, they've paid even more than you have, since Spiral Tide is a cheap deck for legacy standards. (except for candelabras, which you don't own).

2. Do I really expect my opponents not to do everything they can do in order to win?
You shouldn't. Your opponents want to win at least as much as you do. Thus, if they can play a strong deck that they believe will help them winning, they are going to do it.

3. Do I really think the fact that I'm not winning in my local meta has nothing to do with me?
You shouldn't. Winning a game of Magic The Gathering involves some 33% of luck, 33% deckbuilding, 33% skillful playing.
You can't control luck unless you're a cheater. Then, assuming you're not a cheater, the reason behind the majority (66%) of the games that you lose has something to do with either you not playing the right deck or you not playing your deck right.

• It's true that Spiral Tide is in a bad spot right now, so you can always consider switching to a deck that will give you better chances; as an example, if those "T1 winning decks" are so strong, why don't you play them too? Or maybe, why aren't you playing something that beats them more consistantly?
• As an alternative you can play more matches with Spiral Tide, study more, and adjust your deck and your playstyle in order to make them effective in beating your opponents. For example, you are now frustrated because you think you can't beat T1 kill decks in a known enviroment. Well, as far as I know, the only two decks that can consistantly pull off a turn-1 kill are Spy/Informer Combo and Belcher Decks, and both lose to Force of Will. I repeat, you play in a known environment, so when you sit down at the table, you are 99% sure of what your opponent is playing.
  Consider hard mulligan'ing into Force of Will against those people.
  You have close to 80% of getting an active FOW (assuming you play 4) in your starting hand within the first 5 mulligans.
  This will improve your chances of winning g1 dramatically. By the way, whoever told you fow doesn't help is a fool.

4. Do I really think that moving to a different lgs just because I can win more easily there will make me satisfied?
You shouldn't. Your will to improve and get better than your opponents and their lame decks should be the thing that pushes you into playing more.

Sorry if i have been so direct, just my opinion.

No these are unfun people, they go first you lose always and its a crap shoot if you can even play a land or have a turn.

I know how the game works but no one likes unfair decks except the ones that plat them.

T1 win stuff is not fun to even play against and I have a 8 counterspell deck and I'm thinking of using counter top in tides.

And I find then t1-2 decks as unfair and no amount of force of will will stop it or them.

These people also scam the kids, sure they should know what's up but for the growth of the game here that's bad and bad on the shop because they allow it to happen.

I been playing since 95 give or take and I'm a better player than they are and I proved that with a cheap deck against their expensive deck.

So they go buy the cheapest deck they can just to win every time, there is no variance, there is no you get a chance to do anything.

T1 every time and that's a bad environment to be in.
It's casual night anyway so it's bring fun stuff and have fun, no they bring something worse than a storm deck and just stomp.

No one is having fun and I(and others) like to play games where you have fun.

People there (other than 3) like to have epic games, its not a game if you can't even have a turn.

So game 2, you play a land and just sit so they win.
Nothing is being cast, nothing on the stack is happening for a counterspell.
You need literally 80% graveyard hate deck just to win g2.

So they go game 3 and win, and that's if they won the play first.
If you play first it better be graveyard hate after graveyard hate.

No one like to play against the boogieman even if you play boogieman.

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Originally Posted by Sidneyious

No these are unfun people, they go first you lose always and its a crap shoot if you can even play a land or have a turn.

I know how the game works but no one likes unfair decks except the ones that plat them.

T1 win stuff is not fun to even play against and I have a 8 counterspell deck and I'm thinking of using counter top in tides.

And I find then t1-2 decks as unfair and no amount of force of will will stop it or them.

These people also scam the kids, sure they should know what's up but for the growth of the game here that's bad and bad on the shop because they allow it to happen.

I been playing since 95 give or take and I'm a better player than they are and I proved that with a cheap deck against their expensive deck.

So they go buy the cheapest deck they can just to win every time, there is no variance, there is no you get a chance to do anything.

T1 every time and that's a bad environment to be in.
It's casual night anyway so it's bring fun stuff and have fun, no they bring something worse than a storm deck and just stomp.

No one is having fun and I(and others) like to play games where you have fun.

People there (other than 3) like to have epic games, its not a game if you can't even have a turn.

So game 2, you play a land and just sit so they win.
Nothing is being cast, nothing on the stack is happening for a counterspell.
You need literally 80% graveyard hate deck just to win g2.

So they go game 3 and win, and that's if they won the play first.
If you play first it better be graveyard hate after graveyard hate.

No one like to play against the boogieman even if you play boogieman.

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So... what are these decks that regularly kill on t1 through Force of Will?

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Originally Posted by Sidneyious

No these are unfun people, they go first you lose always and its a crap shoot if you can even play a land or have a turn.

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You play a deck with 4 Force of Will, how are you this salty about people playing Belcher and Oops? Sounds to me the problem is that you're playing an incomplete deck and have no knowledge of the format.

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Originally Posted by Sidneyious

And I find then t1-2 decks as unfair and no amount of force of will will stop it or them.

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http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/313MFfASxAL.jpg

Not even this amount? :tongue:
Curiously, you're referring to their decks as unfair. In case you weren't aware of that, the word unfair also applies to Spiral Tide, because it's a combo deck.

Seriously, those are the four latest and biggest Legacy events in the world. Hundreds of players.

1. Frankfurt (Germany)
Only storm, under incredibly lucky circumstances, is able to win at turn 1 against a Force of Will.

2. Indianapolis (USA)
I see many quick decks overall. Heck, some of 'em (Tin Fins) might be able to win t1 through a Force of Will once in a while; but they are so unresilient that sometimes they just autolose.

3. Annecy (France)
Again, there are three decks that can place a win within the first three turns of the game, but T1 combo+protection is extremely unlikely.
I can see one deck that can consistantly win on turn one, but not through a well placed Force of Will.

4. Milan (Italy)
I can't see any deck that can consistantly win during the first three turns of a game.

So maybe me and thousands of other players around the world don't have sufficient awareness of the legacy metagame. Would you please enlighten us on this incredible monster deck that can 20-0 you on their first turn all the time, even if you have FoW?
Cuz I want to play that deck, go to tournaments, and start stacking dem bling-blings in ma stash full o' cash. :wink:

edit: start hard mulliganing into Force of Will. Seriously.

@Sidneyious Some would argue that High Tide going off is not fun to play against as it is not deterministic, and you have to wait to see if they fizzle; this is the same for TinFins albeit to a lesser degree (once they draw >28 cards, even bad luck should be overridden by mathematical certainty).

Turn 0-1 kills are exceedingly rare, moreso since the rise of legacy eldrazi. It is however very predictable that when a local meta becomes more fair *with* an acute lack of chalice decks that combo moves to its most egregious forms. There are few things more just than fair decks getting punished for trying to hate blue out of a format - when FoW becomes bad against more of the meta, don't expect it to ward off the belchers of the world.

Like @Dr_D points out, you run 4 FoW and other mainboard counters; your matchups can't possibly get better [or more fun] if you're up against Thalia/Counterbalance/Thorn/Chalice/discard-heavy decks. Next time maybe aim FoW at the LED? I have to imagine you had a bad experience with turn 0 Ponder, then opponent draws 8th card, plays Cephalid Coliseum + LED, activates Coliseum, and strips your hand while summoning the zombie hordes.

If turn 1 yard-based combo is what you keep losing to, play 8 FoW - in this case it's called Noxious Revival (which also has the added benefit of shoring up your matches vs discard).

I say unfair in the sence that no one gets to play magic.

High tide they have all the time to beat me, just don't fast and drop more threats than I have answers.

IV lost playing burn, affinity, my old high tide build before I got time spiral.

There was a GE I played against silence-stick, that was rough but a good game.

It was actually a game of magic, 90% of the players there are build in progress and usually don't mind because they never play against them.

Hell I've played pauper decks and I've won and lost no biggy. But when you have to dedicate 60% of your deck to graveyard hate you lose to every other deck there.

Our legacy night is actually a casual night and its 3 people that no matter what I bring they sit there and I'd say conspire against just so they get top all the time.

Our meta don't exist like mtgo and they make it a terrible environment.

You will get pissed at losing all the time no matter how good you think you or your deck is.

Modern night utron should always lose to rg tron and I proved them wrong.

Guess I should play 12fow with 20 grave hate deck and lose anyway because I won't get there.

I'm trying to make an environment for everyone to have fun and win or lose at least I had fun.

If you can't play even a fow or a damn land what was the point?
I know how the game works, they just want to piss everyone off and eventually leave the store which is very local.

Our last lgs we had before the owner decided he wanted to sell skateboards was a much better environment and I miss them days.



I don't know many names of decks like this because it's all the same basic dredge idea

T1 self Mills entire deck and somehow a laboratory maniac comes down and they win.

It happened so fast I want to call cheating (which they have done before!)

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Originally Posted by Jesture

So... what are these decks that regularly kill on t1 through Force of Will?

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Anyway sorry for the derail back to the action.

So I for sure know I need 2 fow, I'm not sure if I want to go 2 meditate.
It works well, should I run a second Intuition in the board?

No idea what to run for the rest of my side, what's there is mostly extra I took out of the main as more cards came in.

People tell me to run 1 turnabout in the side and I say no bueno, maybe in g2/3 but not in g1.

I want to try 17 lands, a guy in mtgs is running 16 and does well but iirc he runs tops.

If I was to run tops should I put them in the side? What would you replace main for g2/3?

What would you take out of my list for 3-4 tops if you ran them main?

Would you run counterbalance if you ran top? Is that win more? To me it is win more but being that I'm candless and need islands maybe that's the way to go till I get candles.

Would you run countertop if you had candles?

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...0d17b20e41.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sidneyious

I say unfair in the sence that no one gets to play magic.

I don't know many names of decks like this because it's all the same basic dredge idea

T1 self Mills entire deck and somehow a laboratory maniac comes down and they win.

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That deck is oops all spells. It has a pretty consistent turn 1 kill, but a well-timed force of will, spell pierce, or surgical extraction will stop it dead in its tracks. To win, just play some of those cards in your 75 and mulligan until you draw them.