[Primer/Deck] Pox

Thanks guys, I played yesterday against some friends, against different decks and enjoyed.
I did many tests. The best hands, answers and playing conditions were with this list. I think I'll keep it that way. Day 26 I'll throw a LQ with this deck.
Now i'll think about sideboard considering what omni said.
Follows the final list:

2 Nether Spirit

2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland

2 Cursed Scroll
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Thanks guys, I played yesterday against some friends, against different decks and enjoyed.
I did many tests. The best hands, answers and playing conditions were with this list. I think I'll keep it that way. Day 26 I'll throw a LQ with this deck.
Now i'll think about sideboard considering what omni said.
Follows the final list:

2 Nether Spirit

2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland

2 Cursed Scroll
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate

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Here's a list i saw from another good deck builder from another forum, i think its a thoroughly tested list and does well against the good decks in the meta especially if you tailor your sideboard against it..

Lands 25
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures 3
1 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker

Spells 22
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Vindicate


Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
2 Massacre
1 Nether Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 The Abyss
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere

sorry for the lengthy post, just sharing some ideas i've heard from other poxers.. i'm no expert with the white splash since i exclusively run mono black..

First idea to side.

3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Warmth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

First idea to side.

3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Warmth

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-2 Toxic Deluge; +1 Eng. Plague, +1 Ensnaring Bridge - just C. Scroll through your bridge. Deluge paying life against an aggro player who recovers quickly is of little consequence. Having a permanent solution to hordes is superior.
Swap Warmth with Sun Droplet. The Droplet will get ALL your hp back. Warmth seems to just slow down the damage but you're still at -1 life after a Bolt. That and you won't need white mana in your opening hand for artifacts. If you're afraid of artifact kill, ok, it's a keeper. Not many other cards to consider after that.

Thank you.
I did not know this card, Sun Droplet.
My side looked like this:

4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sun Droplet
2 Ensnaring Bridge

With this side, I can play mono black sometimes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Thank you.
I did not know this card, Sun Droplet.
My side looked like this:

4 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sun Droplet
2 Ensnaring Bridge

With this side, I can play mono black sometimes.

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An excellent board. Covers all bases and can be used with a splash since none of them require BB. :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGoc9KQi8_k

perfect list

Lately I've been proxying up Waste Not and testing it in monoblack pox. The card is not bad. Drawing it late game is not that horrible, as it sets up a situation where the cards your opponent must discard due to Liliana, makes you draw cards. The board state that pox wants to make it to makes Waste Not good (and before someone says it's "win more", getting to that board state in which pox thrives, is certainly not a guaranteed win, it's quite easy to lose if your opponent hits a land, plays a ponder, finds another land, etc., Pox has a terrible topdeck). This is my current list, the sideboard is a little experimental, Unmask goes in against combo and works well with Waste Not:

Waste Not Pox

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
13 Swamps

1 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sinkhole
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Waste Not

4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Engineered Plague
4 Unmask

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu

The board state that pox wants to make it to makes Waste Not good (and before someone says it's "win more", getting to that board state in which pox thrives, is certainly not a guaranteed win, it's quite easy to lose if your opponent hits a land, plays a ponder, finds another land, etc., Pox has a terrible topdeck). This is my current list, the sideboard is a little experimental, Unmask goes in against combo and works well with Waste Not:

Waste Not Pox

4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
13 Swamps

1 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sinkhole
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Waste Not

4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Engineered Plague
4 Unmask

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For a card to be considered in Pox, it needs to do 1 of 3 things. Provide mana, Disrupt the Opponent, Deal Damage. Waste Not does none of the above when top decked. This is why it's win more. You say Pox has a terrible top deck? If you've got Liliana and your foe isn't running SDT, for the most part, you HAVE won. Now he needs to get lucky with a top decked Pithing Needle on her, otherwise, they can't keep their creature or 'hide' their top deck removal for your creature. This is with your assumption that the board state is in which Pox thrives and they have no threats at the moment. I guess they need to topdeck Leyline of Sanctity right? :eek: Ponder isn't shit in the face of a Smallpox. You need to Ponder/Brainstorm 3 times to recover from an optimal Smallpox.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

For a card to be considered in Pox, it needs to do 1 of 3 things. Provide mana, Disrupt the Opponent, Deal Damage. Waste Not does none of the above when top decked. This is why it's win more. You say Pox has a terrible top deck? If you've got Liliana and your foe isn't running SDT, for the most part, you HAVE won. Now he needs to get lucky with a top decked Pithing Needle on her, otherwise, they can't keep their creature or 'hide' their top deck removal for your creature. This is with your assumption that their board state is optimal and they have no threats at the moment. I guess they need to topdeck Leyline of Sanctity right? :eek: Ponder isn't shit in the face of a Smallpox. You need to Ponder/Brainstorm 3 times to recover from an optimal Smallpox.

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This has not been my experience. If Pox had an amazing top deck, it would have been tier 1 or 1.5, not 2 or 3. Although Pithing Needle stops Liliana, a far more likely scenario is Abrupt Decay, Vendilion Clique, Phyrexian Revoker or just creature overload in general (where sacrifice-effects suck). I have lost even in situations where I have Liliana active against an opponent with 0 creatures, few cards in hand and few lands. Yesterday, in a situation just like that playing against elves, my opponent topdecked a fetch and cast Elvish Visionary. I later top decked Innocent Blood, but obviously that still sucks. More and more creatures followed, my Liliana got overrun while I drew Swamps, Sink Holes, Hymns and Inquistions. The hymn wasn't bad in the sense that I could take a few cards from his hand, but it would have been far better if I had a Waste Not in play. Waste Not is perfect for the kind of grindy, long drawn game that Pox wants to facilitate with Smallpox, Liliana, discard and Sinkhole. I don't think there are any other (existing) decks in legacy that has the density of discard to support Waste Not as a reliable engine.

cursed scroll and liliana of the veil helps us during top deck mode by providing consistent sac/damage effects..

swarm strategies have always been a headache for pox, toxic deluge is great and serves as a temporary or "band aid" solution but sometimes you need a more permanent answer..night of soul's betrayal provides virtual card advantage by making most creatures they draw into dead draws..

i haven't proxied waste not to test it, it seems good but dontcha think 4 is a bit too many? try replacing some of them with a copy or two of night of souls betrayal..

the way i see it, its either you construct your deck with more lock/control components like nether void, crucible of worlds, rishadan port, etc to grind it out for the long game(though i personally think its dangerous because pox as a mono black deck simply does not have all the answers for everything your opponent brings to the table) or you include threats that can kill your opponent quickly like tombstalker, desecration demon, etc.. some say that a pox deck is not supposed to lock your opponent out of the game but rather just disrupt the game long enough to let your fast wincons bring your opponent down..you decide :wink:


but you know what? i think your list looks fine.. :smile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

i haven't proxied waste not to test it, it seems good but dontcha think 4 is a bit too many? try replacing some of them with a copy or two of night of souls betrayal..

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Yeah, maybe I'll try a Night of Souls' Betrayal, but I think I'll remove a Toxic Deluge and keep the playset of Waste Not. The reason I want the entire playset is because I really want to see a copy during the early game. The dream scenario is Dark Ritual into Waste Not and Inquisition of Kozilek, followed next turn either by a Hymn to Tourach (if they didn't cast a creature) or a Smallpox (if they did). Besides, having double Waste Not mid- and lategame is not bad, as they stack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu

Yeah, maybe I'll try a Night of Souls' Betrayal, but I think I'll remove a Toxic Deluge and keep the playset of Waste Not. The reason I want the entire playset is because I really want to see a copy during the early game. The dream scenario is Dark Ritual into Waste Not and Inquisition of Kozilek, followed next turn either by a Hymn to Tourach (if they didn't cast a creature) or a Smallpox (if they did). Besides, having double Waste Not mid- and lategame is not bad, as they stack.

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The "Band-Aid" mentioned is correct. Toxic Deluge won't stop recoveries. Night of Souls' Betrayal does. So does Ensnaring Bridge. The ultimate problem with Waste Not is that if your foe is running on empty hand and Liliana is out, unless it's a counterspell-only deck, the top decked spells will be casted all the time to 'dodge' Liliana. The Waste Not would do nothing. Now if you had Nether Voids with Waste/Sinkholes, ah, now Waste Not may work since they can't cast anything. Maybe Contamination. :cool:

Also, top decking an Innocent Blood with Liliana in play after they topped a Noble Hierarch is fine. Blood her and then +1 Liliana. I run 1 Engineered maindeck and Night of Souls' Betrayal to deal with 1 toughness dorks. They're the best at it and can even deal with 2 toughness if it's a tribal. At which point, Liliana will lock out their big creatures. I've yet to face a deck that fights using 1 cmc 3 toughness creatures to flood the board. Also, maindecking 'plague' cards will defeat 1 toughness mana-dorks which Pox hates to see.

Joshua Edelstein! piloted this loam pox build to a top 5 finish yesterday at SCG..congratulations to him..
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69791

seems he's foregone the diamonds and rituals, sacrificing a little bit of speed for more business spells..
hope to see a video coverage of it..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

Joshua Edelstein! piloted this loam pox build to a top 5 finish yesterday at SCG..congratulations to him..
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69791

seems he's foregone the diamonds and rituals, sacrificing a little bit of speed for more business spells..
hope to see a video coverage of it..

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http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/544711979?t=34h19m

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

Joshua Edelstein! piloted this loam pox build to a top 5 finish yesterday at SCG..congratulations to him..
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69791

seems he's foregone the diamonds and rituals, sacrificing a little bit of speed for more business spells..
hope to see a video coverage of it..

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Hot list, though I'm not a fan of Entomb in a non-combo deck. With 27 lands, I thought he'd run out of anti-combo cards, but Therapies with Inquisition+Hymn should be plenty. Weaponized lands be epic! :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

Joshua Edelstein! piloted this loam pox build to a top 5 finish yesterday at SCG..congratulations to him..
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69791

seems he's foregone the diamonds and rituals, sacrificing a little bit of speed for more business spells..
hope to see a video coverage of it..

---

The biggest surprise to me was 0 sinkholes!!

In a deck with 3 pernicious deeds in its 75, 0 moxes and 0 scrolls is not surprising. Dark ritual outside of the mono B shell can be awkward...The utility entomb provides is pretty sweet though I worry he is very vulnerable to grave hate, I wonder how exactly he fights through it. BTW, everyone should take a look at the deck, is all foil jap and FBB lands, quite the sight!!

Anybody have any ideas how to deal with an established counter balance in Mono-B? Apparently Miracles is bigger in my local meta and lock pieces like Culling Scales come to mind. Black isn't big in my meta and I'm considering bringing Contamination back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rlesko

The biggest surprise to me was 0 sinkholes!!

In a deck with 3 pernicious deeds in its 75, 0 moxes and 0 scrolls is not surprising. Dark ritual outside of the mono B shell can be awkward...The utility entomb provides is pretty sweet though I worry he is very vulnerable to grave hate, I wonder how exactly he fights through it. BTW, everyone should take a look at the deck, is all foil jap and FBB lands, quite the sight!!

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Thanks for the well wishes guys!

I have been playing (and pimping out) this deck ever since Ari Lax and Adam Prozak built it 3 years ago. Unfortunate that I got paired against burn in top 8 but I was still excited to see Charlie Mitchell make top 4 of his 1st competitive legacy event. I felt like I matched up favorably to every other deck in the top 8 I find Belcher is a even more favorable match-up than burn. And the rest of the top 8 was creature decks which I'll take all day.

I have run Sinkhole and Nethervoid at different points in time. I have even gone as deep as Firemane Angel for the Burn Match-up.

Entomb is sweet tutoring for Loam, Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, and Lands, I have never seen a deck that utilizes entomb this well. Therapy has been the Best addition to the deck, it is awesome against every one especially Sneak and Show where Griselbrand and Sneak Attack are the only cards I care about, and stoneforge mystic decks. And there are a ton of awesome plays involving Therapy, Bloodghast, Entomb, and Mishra's Factory. (T1 Inquisition, T2 Therapy, Activate Factory, Flashback Therapy is usually backbreaking)

Graveyard hate just takes practice playing around just like with dredge, I tend to trim a loam and an entomb against decks like miracles that are not as vulnerable to wasteland. And Abrupt Decay answers RiP. Also keeping up barren moor to save your Loams or fetchlands to save Bloodghasts is just a force of habit now.

I have recently been tossing around the idea of moving crop rotation maindeck in order to play Dark Depths, I don't actually like it in my build but it is becoming a necessity in order to not go to time (I started of SCG Providence 3-0-3, inexperienced Miracles players played a part, Sensei's Top is not for the uninitiated), I also assume that it will have to take up the "creature" slots of Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory, which are both awesome against Jace.

I would love any tips that would allow me to speed up my clock, I "lock" my opponent out but can still take 5-10 mins to win after that. If new cards are suggested, I'll have to find Japanese Foil Versions :) or if not available some other form of Pimp (my hymms and karakas are miscut) I'll try to update this thread as I make changes, I have friends that check "The Source" regularly so hopefully they will update me if anything pops up here.

Thanks again,
Josh Edelstein

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

Thanks for the well wishes guys!

I have been playing (and pimping out) this deck ever since Ari Lax and Adam Prozak built it 3 years ago. Unfortunate that I got paired against burn in top 8 but I was still excited to see Charlie Mitchell make top 4 of his 1st competitive legacy event. I felt like I matched up favorably to every other deck in the top 8 I find Belcher is a even more favorable match-up than burn. And the rest of the top 8 was creature decks which I'll take all day.

I have run Sinkhole and Nethervoid at different points in time. I have even gone as deep as Firemane Angel for the Burn Match-up.

Entomb is sweet tutoring for Loam, Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, and Lands, I have never seen a deck that utilizes entomb this well. Therapy has been the Best addition to the deck, it is awesome against every one especially Sneak and Show where Griselbrand and Sneak Attack are the only cards I care about, and stoneforge mystic decks. And there are a ton of awesome plays involving Therapy, Bloodghast, Entomb, and Mishra's Factory. (T1 Inquisition, T2 Therapy, Activate Factory, Flashback Therapy is usually backbreaking)

Graveyard hate just takes practice playing around just like with dredge, I tend to trim a loam and an entomb against decks like miracles that are not as vulnerable to wasteland. And Abrupt Decay answers RiP. Also keeping up barren moor to save your Loams or fetchlands to save Bloodghasts is just a force of habit now.

I have recently been tossing around the idea of moving crop rotation maindeck in order to play Dark Depths, I don't actually like it in my build but it is becoming a necessity in order to not go to time (I started of SCG Providence 3-0-3, inexperienced Miracles players played a part, Sensei's Top is not for the uninitiated), I also assume that it will have to take up the "creature" slots of Bloodghast and Mishra's Factory, which are both awesome against Jace.

I would love any tips that would allow me to speed up my clock, I "lock" my opponent out but can still take 5-10 mins to win after that. If new cards are suggested, I'll have to find Japanese Foil Versions :) or if not available some other form of Pimp (my hymms and karakas are miscut) I'll try to update this thread as I make changes, I have friends that check "The Source" regularly so hopefully they will update me if anything pops up here.

Thanks again,
Josh Edelstein

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I say just play really, really fast! If you've mastered the deck and it sure as heck seems like you have, just play as fast as you are able to. If you win more of your game 1's, you'll probably find that most people will play fast too, because they have to win the next 2 in order to win the match.

Also grats on the finish, it's about time this deck was more on the radar again! It's one of those decks I always root for. Well anything that isn't Delver/Stoneforge/boring.deck, ha ha.