[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

I've come across this problem of life-loss several times whenever I try one of my endless attempting to splash a secondary color into any sort of discard oriented black deck. The dual colors almost always requires fetches, confidant, and thoughtseize. It does hurt alot, but I'm fairly certain the benefits of these options outweighs the pain of life loss. That said, how can we mitigate that life loss with other cards.

A few ideas:

1: Spinning Darkness and/or Soul Spike - both of these cards really aren't good unless the rest of your deck is designed to work with them. An idea, but not a feasible one in my opinion for Deadguy

2: Rework your manabase to support double white. This one has been mentioned, and it isn't a horrible idea. I've never been fully satisfied with Deadguy's creature base anyways. Thoughtseize will buy you a half turn more than this deck is used to. Exalted as a 2-of would be hot. Descendant of Kiyomaro was always a cool idea. It's a bit rough on the double black costs, but to make room I could easily see dropping to 3x of Sinkhole or Hymn or both. Plus ritual helps make up for your double black needs.

3: Sensei's Diving Top - this has been the best I've tested thus far. It syncs quite naturally with fetches, lets you order your draw off of Confidant usually yielding considerably less life loss, and it files away Thoughseize when Discard isn't what you need late game. Plus, it takes precious few deck slots and no other real significant changes, while offering several benefits. The real question is usually what to cut. In essence you're cutting business spells for deck manipulation.

Well, my SDT list is as folows:

Mana

4 Dark Ritual
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker
1 Withered Wretch <--yes, it's random. But I'm not running Grunts, anyway; 3 Tombstalkers are enough late=game cards.

Other

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Top is quite good in filtering your draws, it also enables you to run big scary monsters like Tombstalker.

Why in the nine hells are people cutting grunt for tombstalker again? I realize that it is an amazing finisher and all but come on now, 2 for a 4/4 that destroys graveyards and replenishes your threat density? In today's meta? I think that grunt is absolutely necissary.

A couple of tops could be fit into the deck easily (-1 duress -1 thoughtseize?) and the discard could be dropped that way as well. That retains the 1-drop count (4 rit, 3 duress, 3 seize, 2 top), eliminates some of the pain from bob (I'm guessing an average of 1/2 points a game, as you don't always have mana open and certainly dont always draw top.) I personally like it, although I may be reworking the manabase to have more tainted field and less sac-land after some testing this weekend.

@The Big Creature Finisher: We went over this in this thread a while back (like a loong while) and realized that it didn't really work like that. Creatures in deadguy have to serve two distinct purposes; to disrupt and to attack. Now, obviously, shade is in clear violation of these rules, but he is the deck's "Fat finisher" and deals with any resolved big threats later game. Adding other fatties should take shade's slot, as you don't want to cut control elements to run sub-par creatures (...negator...), even if it does speed up the goldfish. In this meta, you are not playing a goldfish and will sac your board to negator on a regular basis. If you want to sac everything to a 5/5, I'd suggest tomb of uruami as it can eat into land slots. Back when this was discussed, negator was dismissed for just that reason and interestingly, Juzzam came up as a favorable replacement. Then came the whining about the pricetag and then came plague sliver. Then everyone realized that these guys can get chump blocked into oblivion and the lack of evasion killed it. Now since I'm too lazy to look back, I'll take you on my own personal mental voyage. I thought of adding avatar of discord, but the problem with lightning bolt made him as bad as negator. I thought of every crappy creature, and shade is the best because he isn't totally useless early game and gets bigger than anything else late game. I also ended up adding a songleton Tomb of Uruami, which everyone on my team seemed to love. Perhaps you could run two if you feel like you need to seal the deal faster? And tombstalker requires you cut grunt. That is logic enough not to even consider it, imho. Perhaps in other splashes.

Spinning Darkness: I found this bad boy too last night, and a couple problems come up. One is the lack of synergy with grunt. Another is the deck's inability to target it's own creatures in an emergency. Another is that 3 targeted damage doesnt acually kill anything worth killing in this format. The 6cc not withstanding, I think it's out.

I'll be running my list -1 duress -1 seize +2 top this evening and report back before tomorrow's tournament.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

(Great weel-argued post)

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Totally agree with you @ Grunts. They have to be ran as a 3-of imho. They help a bit vs Goyf (still, this monster lives longer than the Grunts) and are great beatdown meat.

I'm waiting for your report !!

My critters base has been 4xBob, 4xHippies, 3xShades, x3Grunts for a while. Still, I wonder about the Hippies count and presence, but SpellSnare resiliency and brokeness of an unanswered Ritual+Hippy 1st turn make them stay in.

With the addition of ThoughtSeize, and the fact that Jitte became too slow (and less of a use since Goblin see less an less play in my meta), I've put back 3x Gerrard's Verdict MD for the LifeGain//Added Disruption.

For now, Hymns, Thoughtseize, Duress and Verdicts run smoothly, with great 1st and 2nd turn guaranteed disruption.

I've had good results with this list :
4 Dark Ritual
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tainted Field

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
3 Gerrard's Verdict
3 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Sword to Plowshare

SB:
4x PlanarVoid
4x Dystopia
4x E.Plague
3x Pithing Needle (or 1xDuress 2xEE when there's storm combo in the air...)

With no Tombstalker, I'm not in need of SDT tricks. Bob and heavy discard are enought CA imho, and I dislike Tops ain't disruption//threat by themselves. I may miss something, but I don't miss them for now...

Fit and you Know It: A Quick EPIC DLD Report
List:
5 Swamp
7 Fetch
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Confident
3 Smallpox
3 Grunt
3 Hyppie
3 Shade
2 Anaba Grunt

SB:
3 Dystopia
2 Anaba Grunt
4 Planar Void (complete piece of shit waste of a slot, it should have been Tsabo's web/pithing needle)
3 Extirpate
1 Perish
2 Serenity

Round One: Guy I Don't Know(actual source name) with LANDS! splash black.
Game 1: He ports me to oblivion and gets an active loam. I don't get black mana and am unable to get a Grunt on board to give me a chance.

Game 2: Hyppie and Bobs combined with LD go the distance although he very nearly stabilized.

Game 3: I get some early beats/disruption and he Mulches into the win.
Note: I would like to apologize for sloppyness and general asshatery in this match. Hopefully I can not suck next time we play.

Round Two: IDK Name, 3 Color Goblins
Note: I am assigned a gameloss for a misregged deck, but it was actually a miscount and I get the GL removed, so nuts to all of those who cried out 59 card landstill.

Game 1: I play the disruption route and am able to keep him off of mana despite him drawing 3 AEther Vial (one was duressed, the other met a Vindicate and he was dead before the third mattered). I chump with guys while Hyppie flies over things and keeps him from holding guys. Grunt crashes the party and puts the game away.

Game 2: I make a stupid play mistake and die to a Keg taking out my Bob and Shade. Whatever, we go to game 3.

Game 3: He mulls to 4 and I have a turn 1 Hyppie and a turn 2 Hymn. Urami rises from the dead to finish this one.

Round 3: TheBirdMan with crazy survival
Game 1: He beats me to death with a bunch of little guys and a Magus of the Moon. I smallpox a swamp instead of a nonbasic and proceed to not draw another one.

Game 2: I extirpate squee and he topdecks a creature to go nuts on my face with Akroma. Magus also keeps me off of white for the second time.

Round 3: Nightmare with Eternal Garden
Game 1: Top goes nuts on my face, but he plays a Trinisphere and I lock him under it with 15 LD spells.

Game 2: He gets a turn 2 Mage on Vindicate, turn 3 Chalice at 2. I can't draw Hypnotic Specters to block.

Game 3: This is the worst game ever. He keeps a hand with one land and 2 diamond. I rit out a Hyppie and Duress taking a Smokestack or something of the sort. He topdecks a Maze of Ith, but instead of discarding it to Diamond and Loaming it back, he simply plays it and passes turn. He then forgets to activate the Maze on the Specter and that's all she wrote.

Round 5: Nantuko Shady with Belcher
Game 1: ETW for a million, I can't find an answer.
Game 2: I keep a hand of Duress, Anaba Grunt and a Vindicate. I draw 6 lands and lose to a Belcher.

Round 6: Jim with Death Cloud
Games 1: Kokusho beats my face in as he is able to answer my first few threats.
Game 2: He chumps an early Grunt into oblivion and is able to overwhelm me under midgame threats and a resolved Crucible.

My one thought is to sideboard Pithing Needle. It would have been the nut high in so many of my matchups.

Hm...regarding Tombstalker VS Grunt:

If you run Leyline or Planar Void postboard, Grunt is a dead card. However, Tombstalker+Leyline means your opponent's Goyfs become very sad. And, even with Leyline out it's still a fine finisher; compared to Grunts.

Grunts are also a 5 turn clock. Without evasion. Against decks that don't use the graveyard much, he's just a chumpable 4/4. Tombstalker is a 4 turn clock, which saves you a full turn, and he blocks most flyers that see play in the format too. Also he doesn't die to Deed or Smother(becoming very popular with Goyf around) or EE@2 which otherwise rapes this deck.

Tombstalker and Shade serve the same purpose, almost. They disrupt the opponent's plan to beat you in the face.

About Rsaunder's argument about finishers, whatever he points out about Djinn and Sliver don't apply to Tombstalker. How often does one find flyers chumping Tombstalker, unlike a ground-based 5/5? Tombstalker, too, doesn't cause you lifeloss on its own. Tombstalker, also, unlike Tomb, doesn't cause you to lose to a StoP, and, isn't Wasteable or cause you to lose life, as earlier mentioned.


On Engineered Explosives: I can't see why a control deck wouldn't run this. 4 mana Wraths away Bear and Goyf, 3 Vengeances away Lackey and Vial, and also kills Goose. It can be played fr BBW to kill Counterbalance(since when does Thresh run 3cc?) too. It's versatile enoguh to be what the deck wants to do, run cards that achieve as many things as possible. Compared to StP which can't kill Goose and is pretty limited in tis role, I personally believe EE is a better main choice.


@Whit3_Ghost: why was Planar Void useless? Can elaborate a little on this one?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

@Whit3_Ghost: why was Planar Void useless? Can elaborate a little on this one?

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I didn't play against Ichorid or Breakfast. Against survival it would have been nice, but it would have been good in multiples only. He knew my decklist and I know that he had maindeck removal for it.

Needle would have been better in every way shape and form.

@Hummingbird : I agree that Leyline + TombStalker >> Grunts when facing Goyfs and other GY strategies. But when I MD Grunts, I have a body AND GY hate coming at the cost of two, not at a theorically freaking twelve lifepoints loss with confidant out.
Still, if you're running 3xSDT MD, which I don't (the free slots for Tops are hard to find), I can see why you prefer your proposed disruption package. That and the fact Tombstalker is a better finisher by itself.

@Engineered Explosives/StP : I like beeing the beatdown when playing Magic, even with Deadguy which I agree is a more controlish deck by essence. Thought, I hate to see my threats beeing held in respect by bigger critters or good blockers (like Goyfs mainly, and Lynx in the mirror).
Sure, EE is a more versatile card, but it doesn't permit your threats make their way through opp's defense like StP does. Wiping away Bears & Goyfs with one card is hot, having to sac your own Confidant and Shades (and Grunt in my case) doing this is not. Furthermore, StP get rid of (one of-)them for W, not BW2, it slows my tempo less down. That and that and the fact that Daze, Stifle and SpellSnare do nothing to the instant-speed white removal spell.
I don't care of mongeese, their bodies aren't fat enough, Shades and Grunts take care of'em for me.
Sure, beside of Threshold, getting rid of Survival, Vial, Needle and the like among other things is impossible with StP, but early Discard and Vindicate are already packed in for that.
In short, I think I fear EE is too much redundancy for my build... even if sometimes redundancy means consistency.


Errr... I'm certain sb has already ask it, but why DeadGuy Ale doesn't belong to the DTB/DTW thread ? Due to its less popularity, T8 results or of a non-commonly agreed decklist ?!?


(I hope I made my statements understable and grammatically correct as English is a foreign language for me...)

SpellSnare does nothing to EE. Instead of paying BW for it, I just pay BBW.

Also, on DTB/DTW, probably due to lack of popularity/t8s.

Also Anaba Grunt =/= Plague in my list.
In other words, I beat Goblins without Plagues. Even with him mulling to 4, if he kept a hand of 7 I still feel that I would have won the game.

Ooh. BTW, @Whit3 Ghost:

I think we've had everyone's but your argument on Tombstalker VS Grunt...any opinions?

OOh, I love this deck again. Top is excellent. I destroyed white thresh all night pre and post board and red splash was even before board, then I won post board:tongue:

...And now i crush randomness instead of losing to it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Ooh. BTW, @Whit3 Ghost:

I think we've had everyone's but your argument on Tombstalker VS Grunt...any opinions?

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I'm currently on the fence.

Grunt is an incredibly good utility creature and is a bomb against Goyf. However, Tombstalker's abilities as a finisher cannot be overlooked. I can distincly remember matches where a Stalker would have won me the game. I'm not sure if he's good enough to run things like Sensei's top with, however or if getting burned for 8 is worth it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

OOh, I love this deck again. Top is excellent. I destroyed white thresh all night pre and post board and red splash was even before board, then I won post board:tongue:

...And now i crush randomness instead of losing to it...

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Get on AIM.
What's your list?

Stalker is pretty obscene. I sort of got converted as I've been writing my response. Also, you will now see Rsaunder playing this deck again instead of myself. :cry:

Heh. If you guys don't mind, could you guys, like, um...spare us your that run top or something?

But, yea. Deadguy is probably the best deck in the format that everybody disregards...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Heh. If you guys don't mind, could you guys, like, um...spare us your that run top or something?

But, yea. Deadguy is probably the best deck in the format that everybody disregards...

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What did the first part of that mean again?

Yeah, I agree, deadguy is by far the best "OMG, why are you playing that" deck in the format.

I've been running top, and I like it.

Even with it, tombstalker requires you cut grunt. If you cut grunt, then just cut white and run goyf. Then play deed, and you never lose to thresh again!

In other words, post your list.

My problem with Grunt and Green is this: I don't want to lose Vindicate. I'm probably being overly paranoid, but I enjoy the ability to take out lands that are going to ruin my day. Deed seems a little slow here, but that will be seen with testing and if it gets the nod I think I would like to see Sinkhole run again.

I don't want to lost StP either. Deed seems by far easier to Daze, costs more than 3 mana, and doesn't answer a first turn Lackey(that deck is still good, I'd believe...)

Furthermore, we already have EE to do Deed's job, and against Thresh, it's cheaper, no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Furthermore, we already have EE to do Deed's job, and against Thresh, it's cheaper, no?

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Yeah, but Deed hits things over 2cc, which is important. It also allows you to play the control role and take out the small army of threshed guys that can hit the board against you.

If you're just talking about Threshhold I don't see the point about 2cc...EE hits everything they've got. For the rest, I have Edict and Vindicate...and SBed StPs.

If you'e talking about random Aggro, Tombstalker > them.

If you're talking about red aggro, both Deed and EE suck anyways...