[Deck] bUrg Tempo

what would your side board look like

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Originally Posted by Tormod

I didn't know what to play last week and I saw your post and had a chance to sleeve the deck up for my local weekly.

Here's how it went:

Match 1 vs American Delver
2-0 I suspect some inexperience from my opponent lead to a fairly easy victory. Having 4 stifle and wasteland mean I was the control. Game 2 my opponent kept on tundra wasteland, and fell quickly my wastelands and sylvan.

Match 2 vs Show and Tell
2-1 Lost game one, won game 2 when my opponent kept on ancient tomb... Game 3 I played masterfully allowing my opponent to resolve a turn 2 show and tell to Emmy allowing me to drop a 2nd land into play to accompany my drs and turn 1 land. Turn 2 I untap, drop land 3, tap for 3 play Liliana. Opponent FOW's I respond with REB. Lily resolves, Emmy gets sacked. My opponent is down to one card. Clique after my next untap reveals gris and a land. I tuck gris. Lilly, Clique and DRS get the job done in 4 turns, while I clutch a Krosan grip.

Match 3 vs Dredge.
I lose this one, I probably could have played better. Evaluated threats incorrectly

Match 4 vs DnT
I lose this one in 2. Their mana denial plan with vial + equipment was effective at shutting me down.
2-1

I did enjoy playing the list. I admit I wish I could have SB'd some delvers into the list when I faced Dnt and Dredge. I think I would like to try 2 stifle more a defensive plan to wasteland rather than run 4 as a denial plan, because of the absence of daze. I would try 2 stifle, 2 spell pierce. The Jace fateseal plan them off lands never came up for me.

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It's great ! Nice that you tested it :)

American delver is quite easy indeed, thanks to spell snare, Jace (they can't deal with it) and because of the fact that Clique can protect Tarmogoyf from Decay. EDIT : I'm talking about Bug Delver. I guess American delver is UWR Delver. Postside it's easier (we have too many removals for their 10-threat deck). But as usual TNN and batterskull are hard to handle. I usually take the aggro G1. Clique is great vs batterskull though.
Show and tell is not an easy match up at all in my experience. Great that you won ! It's very hard to win G1 (no pierce MD in my list). Diabolic Edict helps even if it's not that good against griselbrand . I see that you ran Liliana (in the sb ?). I didn't do it because I wanted to remain reactive (i tap out mainphase for Jace and sometimes for goyf only) and because I was afraid of the BB in the mana cost (edict can also be flashbacked by scm).
Dredge is not that bad. You have stifle for narco, surgical for ichorid/narco and counterspells to slow them down. And Drs can help. Manaless is a lot harder. But this can be dealt with by running adequate sb cards. I don't run cage because of scm. This is a choice, mb not the best. I regret Delver because i could bolt it early, not so much for the pressure.
Vs D1T, I board in 2 bitterblossom. If it hits the table in the early turns, it's always gg. This match up is the only reason I don't run Golgari charm in my sb, but this may be a mistake. This is what I do :
+2 Bitterblossom +1 Izzet Staticaster +1 Forked Bolt +2 Edict +1 Grudge -1/2 Goyf -1 Counterspell -2/1 Fow (OTP/OTD) -2 Jace -1 Force Spike
Then, if I had Fire covenant/Charm in my sb, I go -1 Fow +1 Fire Covenant (generally i have something in the flex slots).
I don't know if you're okay with this. It has worked for me.

The Jace fateseal plan often occurs in the Shardless/Death-Stoneblade MU. But it needs setup :).
Playing 2 Stifle is an idea. Stifle really shines vs Control/Midrange matchups (Miracle, Shardless, Stoneblade), vs Ant and vs Rug. It depends on your meta. If there is a lot of Sneak Show, I think it's the right choice.

So, getting back to non-NLT BURG;
the Taiga, it's the bane of my existence, haha. It keeps haunting me in my opening hands and keeps laughing at my face; "How do you like this awesome hand, huh? Delver, Daze, Wasteland, Taiga, FoW, Brainstorm, Stifle - cool huh!?" This would've been a no-brain keeper with any blue dual or fetch. :cry: To me, this makes the deck slightly less consistent and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. I feel the manabase needs some work, to be perfectly honest.

The same sometimes goes for having a Volcanic and a DRS, although that's obviously less worse than the Taiga. The only Red we run mainboard is 4 Bolts. In the sideboard I have 2 Pyroblast, 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Fire Covenant. I'm contemplating on, if I keep running with the Taiga, to drop 1 Volcanic for the 4th Scalding Tarn. Any thoughts on that? We'd still have 1 Taiga and 1 Volcanic + 3 to 4 DRS. For me, the Black spash feels larger, with me running 2 Abrupt Decay main and sideboard; 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Fire Covenant, 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Surgical Extraction (though it's often no issue to pay 2 life, of course) and I also feel that - for the tempo race - I need to be able to use DRS offensively, so Black seems to be more desirable.

Also, once again, Mongoose seems to be getting worse and worse with so much DRS-packed decks in the current meta. While the shroud is absolutely awesome, it's the better tool in control match ups, but vs. stuff like BUG Delver, it takes a pretty long while for it to reach Threshold. I'm contemplating going to 4 DRS and 2 Goose instead of the 3/3 split. This is the exact reason why I run 3 Geese and 1 TNN, because TNN gets in there right away and pitches to FoW as well.

The deck feels clunky now and then. I realize that, while I was running 4C Delver with the Young Pyromancers, I was actually basically just playing Grixis Delver, the green splash was just for a few sideboard cards and, in all honesty, that list did feel more consistent to me.

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Originally Posted by kingsey

what would your side board look like

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1 Vendilion Clique
3 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam

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Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme

So, getting back to non-NLT BURG;
the Taiga, it's the bane of my existence, haha. It keeps haunting me in my opening hands and keeps laughing at my face; "How do you like this awesome hand, huh? Delver, Daze, Wasteland, Taiga, FoW, Brainstorm, Stifle - cool huh!?" This would've been a no-brain keeper with any blue dual or fetch. :cry: To me, this makes the deck slightly less consistent and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. I feel the manabase needs some work, to be perfectly honest.

The same sometimes goes for having a Volcanic and a DRS, although that's obviously less worse than the Taiga. The only Red we run mainboard is 4 Bolts. In the sideboard I have 2 Pyroblast, 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Fire Covenant. I'm contemplating on, if I keep running with the Taiga, to drop 1 Volcanic for the 4th Scalding Tarn. Any thoughts on that? We'd still have 1 Taiga and 1 Volcanic + 3 to 4 DRS. For me, the Black spash feels larger, with me running 2 Abrupt Decay main and sideboard; 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Fire Covenant, 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Surgical Extraction (though it's often no issue to pay 2 life, of course) and I also feel that - for the tempo race - I need to be able to use DRS offensively, so Black seems to be more desirable.

Also, once again, Mongoose seems to be getting worse and worse with so much DRS-packed decks in the current meta. While the shroud is absolutely awesome, it's the better tool in control match ups, but vs. stuff like BUG Delver, it takes a pretty long while for it to reach Threshold. I'm contemplating going to 4 DRS and 2 Goose instead of the 3/3 split. This is the exact reason why I run 3 Geese and 1 TNN, because TNN gets in there right away and pitches to FoW as well.

The deck feels clunky now and then. I realize that, while I was running 4C Delver with the Young Pyromancers, I was actually basically just playing Grixis Delver, the green splash was just for a few sideboard cards and, in all honesty, that list did feel more consistent to me.

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I've only played the deck in two small events, but I feel the same about it's clunkiness. I had to mull two hands with Taiga Wasteland. I fetched for Taiga Usea, then had to decide between casting a cantrip and holding up Stifle. No matter how you set up your lands in the first few turns, there's some configuration of draws you can have that makes your mana awkward.

I like cutting the Volc for an 8th fetch though. I'm going to be running the deck through some number of side events at the GP this weekend, probably with this mainboard:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt

Not 100% sure on the sideboard yet, though. I'll let you know how the 1 Volc works out.

I don't think running a Taiga with only 1 Volcanic is correct. Probably you will be better off with 2 Volcanics. Taiga is (imo) only good if you want to protect yourself from being cut off one color completely.

I suggest you to run 4 Deathrites to smooth out the mana issues - it has worked fine or me.

My current list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman (they smooth out draws and hinder opposing shamans)
3 Nimble Mongoose (3 is enough for me, since they come down to finish the job)
2 Vendilion Clique (great vs Miracles, Blade & combo)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (great for protecting threats)
3 Stifle (I had to cut one, because playing with 61 cards isn't great :-) )
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder

1 Sylvan Library (a real powerhouse!)

4 Wasteland
8 Blue Fetches
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

This list is excellent vs tempo, combo and control decks, but has a tendency to lose vs midrange (that could easily be my fault)

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Originally Posted by Kael

I've only played the deck in two small events, but I feel the same about it's clunkiness. I had to mull two hands with Taiga Wasteland. I fetched for Taiga Usea, then had to decide between casting a cantrip and holding up Stifle. No matter how you set up your lands in the first few turns, there's some configuration of draws you can have that makes your mana awkward.

I like cutting the Volc for an 8th fetch though.
I'll let you know how the 1 Volc works out.

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The thing I have learned is that Taiga is great as the third land so they can't cut you off and therefore I don't feel it's often correct to fetch it out as the 2nd land, because you can't threaten Spell Pierce / Snare effectively, since you want to drain with DRS. But, this is so different from RUG Delver, where you can basically just operate perfectly fine on two lands.

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Originally Posted by crush

I don't think running a Taiga with only 1 Volcanic is correct. Probably you will be better off with 2 Volcanics. Taiga is (imo) only good if you want to protect yourself from being cut off one color completely.

I suggest you to run 4 Deathrites to smooth out the mana issues - it has worked fine or me.

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It's all wrong, to be honest. The Taiga is wrong and the Volcanics are wrong, but ... I don't see another way besides all of this to not get into these situations. You want 2 Blue so you can offensively counter and not tap out constantly and have Taiga sit there open, providing little threat being untapped. The Taiga itself isn't really that bad, it's that sometimes it's just unwanted and other times it's the perfect 3rd land, but having the chances for it to be in your opening hand or getting there when you really don't care for it makes me seriously consider just dropping it for another Tropical or Fetch.

The 4th Shaman I've considered, but I don't necessarily feel that'll fix the clunkiness, to be very honest.

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Originally Posted by crush

My current list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman (they smooth out draws and hinder opposing shamans)
3 Nimble Mongoose (3 is enough for me, since they come down to finish the job)
2 Vendilion Clique (great vs Miracles, Blade & combo)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (great for protecting threats)
3 Stifle (I had to cut one, because playing with 61 cards isn't great :-) )
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder

1 Sylvan Library (a real powerhouse!)

4 Wasteland
8 Blue Fetches
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

This list is excellent vs tempo, combo and control decks, but has a tendency to lose vs midrange (that could easily be my fault)

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Taiga is less needed in your list because you don't run Goyfs (which might explain why you do less well vs midrange) and run 2 Clique in its place. Double U is therefore more important in your list. Your list looks fine, but I would highly suggest moving Sylvan to the SB and up the Stifle count to 4.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme

The thing I have learned is that Taiga is great as the third land so they can't cut you off and therefore I don't feel it's often correct to fetch it out as the 2nd land, because you can't threaten Spell Pierce / Snare effectively, since you want to drain with DRS. But, this is so different from RUG Delver, where you can basically just operate perfectly fine on two lands.


It's all wrong, to be honest. The Taiga is wrong and the Volcanics are wrong, but ... I don't see another way besides all of this to not get into these situations. You want 2 Blue so you can offensively counter and not tap out constantly and have Taiga sit there open, providing little threat being untapped. The Taiga itself isn't really that bad, it's that sometimes it's just unwanted and other times it's the perfect 3rd land, but having the chances for it to be in your opening hand or getting there when you really don't care for it makes me seriously consider just dropping it for another Tropical or Fetch.

The 4th Shaman I've considered, but I don't necessarily feel that'll fix the clunkiness, to be very honest.


Taiga is less needed in your list because you don't run Goyfs (which might explain why you do less well vs midrange) and run 2 Clique in its place. Double U is therefore more important in your list. Your list looks fine, but I would highly suggest moving Sylvan to the SB and up the Stifle count to 4.

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agreed

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Originally Posted by crush

I don't think running a Taiga with only 1 Volcanic is correct. Probably you will be better off with 2 Volcanics. Taiga is (imo) only good if you want to protect yourself from being cut off one color completely.

I suggest you to run 4 Deathrites to smooth out the mana issues - it has worked fine or me.

My current list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman (they smooth out draws and hinder opposing shamans)
3 Nimble Mongoose (3 is enough for me, since they come down to finish the job)
2 Vendilion Clique (great vs Miracles, Blade & combo)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (great for protecting threats)
3 Stifle (I had to cut one, because playing with 61 cards isn't great :-) )
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder

1 Sylvan Library (a real powerhouse!)

4 Wasteland
8 Blue Fetches
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

This list is excellent vs tempo, combo and control decks, but has a tendency to lose vs midrange (that could easily be my fault)

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Besides the obvious fact that 61 cards is bad, why 3 Stifle? I'd gladly cut the Sylvan, the third pierce, or the 13th dude before cutting a Stifle from your list.

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Originally Posted by Kael

Besides the obvious fact that 61 cards is bad, why 3 Stifle? I'd gladly cut the Sylvan, the third pierce, or the 13th dude before cutting a Stifle from your list.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with running less than 4 stifle. The card isn't as good as it used to be and really only shines against bad opponents who likely you would have beaten anyways.

In bUrg, I think 2 stifles is fine. This gives you enough stifles to use defensively to protect your manabase against wasteland. With 4 Delvers and 4 Shaman, its super awkward to leaving open mana turn 1 to hopefully catch a fetchland being cracked. I must rather play my threats and push out win. Playing tempo requires having a threat in play to advance the plan.

Played tonight. I enjoyed the deck.
Beat sneak and show
Beat Pox
Lost a tight one vs miracles main deck reb? Lame
Lost vs ant. Sometimes that deck has the nuts.

It was a nice change from bug. Lightning bolt owns!

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Originally Posted by Tormod

I don't think there is anything wrong with running less than 4 stifle. The card isn't as good as it used to be and really only shines against bad opponents who likely you would have beaten anyways.

In bUrg, I think 2 stifles is fine. This gives you enough stifles to use defensively to protect your manabase against wasteland. With 4 Delvers and 4 Shaman, its super awkward to leaving open mana turn 1 to hopefully catch a fetchland being cracked. I must rather play my threats and push out win. Playing tempo requires having a threat in play to advance the plan.

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That is naive view. You build your whole deck around Stifle( or should at least) if you play it. So playing less than 4 copies is just inaccurate. If you play it then play 4.
Also there is no reson to play less then 4 Stifle with Miracles and all those 3 coloured midrange decks flying around. I just ignore the last two sentences. I dont feel like covering how to play Stifle in a tempo deck yet again. Just look at some older pages.

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Originally Posted by pe5e

That is naive view. You build your whole deck around Stifle( or should at least) if you play it. So playing less than 4 copies is just inaccurate. If you play it then play 4.
Also there is no reson to play less then 4 Stifle with Miracles and all those 3 coloured midrange decks flying around. I just ignore the last two sentences. I dont feel like covering how to play Stifle in a tempo deck yet again. Just look at some older pages.

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Naive... Yet you're the one declaring universal truths regarding card selection.

You sound like a scrub that just discovered the format.

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Originally Posted by Tormod

Naive... Yet you're the one declaring universal truths regarding card selection.

You sound like a scrub that just discovered the format.

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I dont want to be mean or anything. Maybe I just cant express myself well enough(my english isnt the best ether). But if you only play like the 2 Sitlfes for protecting your manabase is it really worth to keep the fourth colour in the deck if you follow that plan?
Again i didnt try to attack you or anything.

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Originally Posted by pe5e

That is naive view. You build your whole deck around Stifle( or should at least) if you play it. So playing less than 4 copies is just inaccurate. If you play it then play 4.
Also there is no reson to play less then 4 Stifle with Miracles and all those 3 coloured midrange decks flying around. I just ignore the last two sentences. I dont feel like covering how to play Stifle in a tempo deck yet again. Just look at some older pages.

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I have to wholeheartedly agree with this. Stifle is definitely a huge part of a tempo deck's plan. It shouldn't really have to be in there just to save our own manabase. Maybe I'm coming off as slightly rude here, but you either play 4 Stifle (MAYBE 3) or you simply don't. Its effectiveness is derived from its redundancy; getting one in the early game is pretty important; running 2 would absolutely ruin those chances.

I have cut one Stifle after I found myself in a position where I felt the game was slowly slipping away a few times while I held a couple of Stifles in my hand. Having a Sylvan Library which allows you to trade life for answers (i.e. land, threat, removal, counter..) is key in a lot of matchups.

Also, I found myself Stifling fetches less and less aggressively, unless I see them stumbling with land drops. This might net me a lot less free wins, but helps against random blowouts from opposing Wastelands - i.e. cutting you off one color and making you have 2 dead cards of that color in hand.

I honestly think it boils down to play style and "gut feel". Currently 3 Stifles are giving me the perfect mix of utility, protection and free wins.

I think stifle is very strong. It also interacts with miracle cards, sneak attack, top, rest in peace, batterskull. Etc..

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Originally Posted by pe5e

I dont want to be mean or anything. Maybe I just cant express myself well enough(my english isnt the best ether). But if you only play like the 2 Sitlfes for protecting your manabase is it really worth to keep the fourth colour in the deck if you follow that plan?
Again i didnt try to attack you or anything.

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Calling someone Naive isn't the best way to have a civil conversation.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionColorScheme

I have to wholeheartedly agree with this. Stifle is definitely a huge part of a tempo deck's plan. It shouldn't really have to be in there just to save our own manabase. Maybe I'm coming off as slightly rude here, but you either play 4 Stifle (MAYBE 3) or you simply don't. Its effectiveness is derived from its redundancy; getting one in the early game is pretty important; running 2 would absolutely ruin those chances.

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You're coming off as a fanboy who has been drinking the "Stifle Kool Aid" who has bought into this "4 of or nothing" rhetoric. Regarding the tempo plan, you can see that Stifle is the LEAST important card in the tempo decks. That why most tempo decks outside of Canadian Thresh don't run stifles and for a time Thresh dropped stifle as well in favor of more spell pierce. You can search deck list and see how many tempo decks use fewer than 4 stifles and how many use none at all. SCG last week the 2nd place BUG deck ran 3 stifles, the 3rd place deck ran none. This is magic, the unsolvable game. This is also bUrg in the development thread where you go to find and do things different. When you already decided there are "TRUTHS" to card selection, you've already decided you have nothing to contribute and you're only parroting rhetoric.

You gotta be carefull here though. BUG, RUG and Uwr Tempo are entire diffrent decks when it comes to creating tempo plays. Simple because one of them doesnt play Stifle doesnt tell a lot about the role that Stifle can forfill in other tempo decks. RUG for example is the best deck for Stifle(even better than burg delver), while BUG and Uwr are slightly slower in there clock because of higher casting costs for their threats and disruption. They tend to tap out more often then we do so Stifle is less reliable here. RUG on the other hand can perfectly balance developing threats and disrupt the opponent because the entire decks costs only 1 mana(except Goyfs). So they want to make their deck as consistent as possible by playing playsets.

And since Burg is RUG Delver + black playing Stifle as a 4 off is logical because we are aiming for the same strategy as RUG Delver.

Yes, there was a time when RUG Delver was cutting Stifles in favour for more removel and Spell Snares. But that was back then when Maverick was still a deck to beat. Against Maverick Stifle is kinda bad particularly on the draw. But todays meta game is largely defined by 3-coloured decks and Miracles. Stifle is fantastic against those decks. If the meta shifts again towards decks that can neutralize Stifle then maybe we should cut Stifle again. For now though it seems wrong to do so.

And saying that Stifle isnt as powerful as it used to be seems wrong. Just because people can play around it doesnt mean it is bad. Daze and Spell Pierce can be ignored too but only if they staybalize and it is our job to prevent that. They also cant always play around it even if they know about it.

I am sorry if i seemed rude at my last comment but i just got annoyed by this comment:

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Originally Posted by Tormod

I don't think there is anything wrong with running less than 4 stifle. The card isn't as good as it used to be and really only shines against bad opponents who likely you would have beaten anyways.

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I hope we can keep this conversation healthy and polite.

Read carefully: Playing less than 4 stifles DOES NOT MEAN "Stifle is bad"


I've been playing this deck since Sasan started this thread, I often don't bother posting in this thread because I see a lot of theory crafting that goes no where, or some eager beaver thinks they reinvented the wheel when they post up their list and it looks exactly like the same lists from last year.

I don't like 4 of stifle in this deck is because the deck runs 4 shaman and 4 delver, thats 8 turn 1 plays. Your best turn 1 plays are pushing a Delver or a Shaman. Its ok for Canadian Thresh to have 4 stifles because it doesn't run shaman and play mongoose turn 1 is not optimal. Thus Thresh has 8 turn 1 plays with delver or stifle.

Seriously, why are you trying to stop me from saying its fine to play less than 4 stifles?