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This looks good, I would add the following cards to the guideQuote:
Originally Posted by TheStalk
Pithing Needle
Blood Moon
Stronghold Gambit
Dread of Night//Massacre
Also, removing Iona is something I do a lot against the 3 color U decks as there are too many different colors for her to be optimal.
This is excellent and definitely looks like you put a lot of work into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStalk
The only comment I would have is that I think the biggest thing people new to the deck have trouble with is not "what to bring in", but "what to bring out", which is a much harder question to answer. If you continue development I'd try to explore ways to answer that question (though I don't have any good ideas on how to answer it in the big picture like you've done for the what to bring in section).
@ Darkness: When I originally started putting together the guide it was mostly to help me sideboard on the fly, and I'm not playing any of those cards, which is why I omitted them. Frankly my biggest issue with adding them to the guide would be that I wouldn't be sure what to take out for them, and I feel that part is almost as important as why you're bringing it in. If you (or anyone else with experience SB'ing those cards) wants to let me know roughly when you bring them in and what you remove from the main for them, I can add them no problem.
I actually meant to include a general note at the top for when to cut Iona and/or Tidespout Tyrant and forgot to, so expect that in the next iteration. I'll take feedback for a few days and then I can re-post an updated version.
@ Jeff: I'm a bit confused by your comment, unless you looked only at the second page of the doc (Hate cards), the quick SB guide does provide guidelines on what to cut. I didn't provide hard numbers because I think that varies way too much to be reliable, but I did indicate which card (or type of card) I would generally board out for each SB card I covered in the "Cuts" column. Unless you meant that there should be an explanation for the cuts like there is in the "Remarks" column for what I'm bringing in?
Also, can anyone give me a yay or nay on Surgical vs ANT? It's the one question mark I left in the guide (I'm playing a 3/1 Faerie/Surgical split as GY hate in my board), I'm not 100% sure whether it's right to bring it in or not. I can see scenarios where it wins the game almost on its own, but also scenarios where it basically reads "Add 2 storm to your opponent's storm count" (1 for the card and 1 for the 2 life I'm paying).
Weird. I looked at page one as well and somehow just missed that entire column. My bad then.
Surgical against ANT?
I sideboard very minimally against byes such as ANT. Assuming they don't have Leyline (a good assumption unless you see it in G2):
+1 Duress
+1 Children of Korlis (to be sure to win with a Griselbrand)
no decays, no reverents, no faeries, no archetype
-1 Tidespout Tyrant (duh)
-1 Chrome Mox? or don't bring in Children if you don't have it.
Makes sense, I hadn't even thought of bringing in CoK but that also makes a ton of sense now that I think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
Assuming you have 2 discard spells in your SB (I'm currently trying a 3/3/2 maindeck split of CoBru/TS/Unmask, with a Duress and a CoBru in the SB), do you bother bringing the second one in, especially given that it's a 2 mana discard spell?
No problem, and thanks for the kind words :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Storm is so favorable that I don't even need the Duress, it's just that Tidespout is even more do-nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStalk
Agreed. In my version with the blue splash with Iona/Elesh main, I side Elesh out for whatever the most likely to be relevant sideboard card is depending on the current build, and call it a day. It's not that I want the board card, I just don't want Elesh Norn. Same with Tidespout.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
After long consideration I think I will be switching to DNS 75. Abrupt Decay seems to be the answer for all the decks I have been looking for. More details to come with my testing.
If you're actually tracking things, do you mind if I suggest a system for evaluating sideboard utility? I outlined it in this blog post but the short version is this: Every sideboard game should fit into one of the following 5 categories;Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness
1. I didn't draw my anti-hate, but I won anyway
2. I didn't draw my anti-hate and I lost
3. I drew my anti-hate, but didn't need it and I won anyway
4. I drew my anti-hate, but it wasn't good enough and I still lost
5. I drew my anti-hate and used it to win
Over a reasonable quantity of games I'd be very interested to see how Abrupt Decay fares. Is it really creating games in category #5? Obviously there's some level of subjective judgement here, but not much I wouldn't think. If you're playing games and keeping track of data it might be worth looking at after a while.
I can do this no problem, Majority of my testing is not from MTGO or paper, as I don't have too many places to play but cockatrice. I know the quality of player is not as high as when people actually invest into the cards but it is better than going off of no data. I will post my spreadsheet results from RB/w which was 64 matches in total. I had a 62.5% W:L which was ok. Expect it to go up before the end of the month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
On a side note I will be attending the SCG Legacy event in DC end of October, will I be seeing anyone there? If you're interested in meeting up I would love to meet people from the Source in person to discuss theory and rounds IRL.
Before you come back with test results (which I'll definitely be looking forward to), would you mind sharing the thought process which lead you to switch?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness
Considering the event is 20 minutes from my house I ought to be there, but that weekend has several other plans so I'm only about 50% to show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness
Update below
Keep me updated on the source so we can meet up if you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Yes I can give you my thought process. Here is the history. I switched back over to this deck this past May. I've been playing Legacy since 2010 and have piloted well over a dozen decks in paper including but not limited to Grixis Delver, RUG delver, BUG Delver, Jund, Shardless BUG, ANT, TES, Sneak and Show, Junk (i.e. Old Abzan, think modern Abzan), Dredge, UB Reanimator, Sneak and Show, Maverick, NO RUG, and most recently Eldrazi (see my signature) I sold my entire collection when Treaure Cruise was taking over the format due to Needing money and wanting not having enough local store to regularly play at to justify owning such an expensive hobby. I started getting the Legacy itch a year ago and considered competitive deck that were only about $1000. After the banning of Top and death of Eldrazi I looked elsewhere. A deciding factor to buying in this deck was it's speed, not only of the deck but of the matches :tongue:. When I initially started testing G or W there was and still is a decision divided between the community because there is no empirical evenidence really showing one is better than the other. With my initially testing of the G deck, My current list in my signature 74/75 of DNSolvers's, I found that there was no extra sideboard slots for random bullets that I want. The appeal to the white splash was that I get to combine the 4 spots occupied from the Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence. That in itself sounded extremely appealing, who wouldn't want more sideboard slots to fight in a diverse format such as legacy? Here is the last iteration of my white splash sideboard. The main deck was the same as the one in my signature -1 Thoutsieze +1 Unmask.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStalk
4 Wear//Tear
2 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical
1 Massrce
1 Elesh Norn
1 Grave Titan
1 Archetype of Endurance
1 Duress
I had also tested, Fatal Push, and Dread of Night.
After 60+ matches here is what I discovered.
4 Wear//Tear - Card was fine I really enjoyed having diversity of the split card, hit chalices, trinispheres, Rest in Peace, Leylines esc.. Most importantly it moved my game plan of reanimating forward.
Verdict: Great Card.
2 Blood Moon - for Greedy 3/4 Color Blue decks was like cute but never came up and when it did on game two they had the counter magic to stop it. It was better against Lands, Turbo Depths, and Random Karakas decks, but ultimately didn't assist moving my game plan forward in any Match Ups.
Verdict: Mediocre card.
2 Pithing Needle - Great at what it did. Attacked various decks from multiple angles. DRS, Liliana, Thespian Stage, Karakas, Math of Ith, Jace TMS, and other various activated ability. Sometimes sometimes moved my game plan forward and sometimes it didn't or wasn't relevant. An issue with the card is when it didn't move my game plan forward it game time for the opponent to look for answers to combate the needle or sometimes I'd have needle for DRS and I'd see a Grafdiggers Cage :tongue:.
Verdict: Good card but had high variance.
2 Surgical Extraction - Good agasint Mirror and Lands did a good job at playing its role. Mainly use as a disruption tool to not instantly loose the game in mirror or get locked out of playing magic against lands. Rarely progressed my game plan but seems like a nessecary evil to have in the 75.
Verdict: Good Card with narrow usage
1 Massacre - Primarily used to fight Death and Taxes. Hits there major disruption tools but acts a board wipe. Similar to Pithining it would sometimes assist with progressing my game plan but other times it would only sit in my hand while they beat me down with a Rest In Peace in play and a Revoker. Or they have Karakas up and no way for me to utilize Massacre. Also, against DnT I seemed to have been attempting to board in so many cards,(Wear//Tear, Needle, Massacre) which was diluting my game plan, which is as we all know a combo players worst post game mistake to make.
Verdict: Mediocre Card niche usage
1 Grave Titan - Non- Legendary threat against Karakas and various Sac effects, Liliana, Diabolical Edict, Small Pox. Worked good against decks that didn't go wide like Delver too. Worked apart of my game plan. Sometimes I even was able to Dark Ritual it out!
Verdict: Good card for various situations, very rarely did I seem unhappy to have it.
1 Elesh Norn - Good Card to control board presence. Elves, Aluren, Infect and other random decks as I saw fit during boarding. Worked toward my game plan but sometimes did not need it and was a win more card.
Verdict: Good niche card for various situations.
1 Archetype of Endurance - This card has been utterly bonkers. Not only does it protect your fatties from various targeted abilities and spells but it correlates with working towards your game plan.
Verdict: Great Card
1 Duress - DNSolver said it best Duress is kinda a mediocre card but it's better than a Tidespout Tyrannt against Storm decks. I never thought it was amazing or horrible just there as a flex slot vs combo and counter magic.
Verdict: Mediocre
After evaluating these cards in my sideboard and other various options I came to the realization that Abrupt Decay is that answer all card, especially when versing Fair UB decks with DRS that brought in Graveyard Hate like Cage. It was this catch all that is uncounterable and good against both creatures and problem permanents. The best part about the card was it could hit hate cards and or their threats that fought along side them a 2 in 1. I Realized that this was the true advantage of the card. I also now believe that this will solve the issue I so frequently ran into against DnT where I was boarding so many things out and so many cards in diluting my deck to hit potential threats that they may never draw. Decay as a 4 of just does it all.
Permanents that Abrupt Decay hits that I was using Wear//Tear, Massacre, Pithing Needle, and Fatal Push in my testing to combat through hate.
Deathrite Shaman
Delver of Secrets
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Containment Priest
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Baleful Strix
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Phyrexian Revoker
Tarmogoyf
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere
Rest in Peace
Relic of Progenitus
Tormod's Crypt
Grafdiggers Cage
Thorn of Amethyst
Pithing Needle
Various Equipment
Stoneforge Mystic
Vendilion Clique
Eidolon of Great Revel
Sulfuric Vortex
Ensnaring Bridge
Liliana, of the Veil
Aether Vial
I am sure I'm missing more examples but I think everyone gets the point. Decay's versatility is superior to having multiple mediocre or good cards. Take a look at the break down from my previous white splash sideboard, most of the cards I analyzed ended up as OK or good, not great. Only a few came out on top. Having cards that really hit your enemies hate as hard as it can is more important in a deck without the blue counter magic or cantrips to filter through for card quality, which is an advantage of UB Reanimator.
Last things to mention on the topic. When I first started piloting this deck I looked to DNSolver's YouTube videos of the deck and watched as he analyzed the 75. That analysis is something that I've always kept in the back of my mind. I hope that this realization about Decay is spot on to his realization about Decay many moons ago. I would advise anyone who has not seen the videos to go check them out. As I mentioned before I come from a heavy Blue deck background where we have cantrips to find the impact card in the match up and counter magic as an answer all backup if those impact cards are not found. Having multiple cards that can answer multiple things even if they aren't doing the best thing they can you have the versatility of only playing a few so you can find with cantrips and free up sideboard slots. That is a trap which I fell down quickly with this deck as there is no card filter so quality is a premium.
Hope that was useful to you TheStalk and my other GY aficionados! I would love to hear what people have to say about this post.
Yeah guys I literally put in a Duress because I needed something to put in for a 15th slot. My sideboard was 4 Decay, 4 Reverent, 4 Faerie, Archetype, and Children, and that sideboard is all you need. I couldn't think of anything, so I put in another discard spell vs Surgical or whatever.
Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to write that up. The reason I ask is that, funnily enough, I had the exact reverse thought process. When I first created the "Hate Cards" document (page 2 of what I shared above) many months ago, I came to the same conclusion as you; that Abrupt Decay was by far the most versatile card, since it hits like 95% of what you want to hit (the big miss being Leyline). The reason I ended up moving away from Green and into White however, wasn't so much because I needed the extra SB slots (your analysis here is pretty spot on), it was simply that in the match-ups where I really wanted both Decay and Reverent Silence (mainly Eldrazi and Moon Stompy decks), I felt that bringing in 8 cards was diluting my deck way too much. To me, the value of the White splash isn't so much that it gives me extra SB slots, just that it allows me to SB more lightly. I'll really be looking forward to your test results (following Jeff's code, which I also intend to implement when I have more time to test) and seeing how it works out for you. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on the best splash, and I think a strong argument can be made for all 3 (U/G/W), but hopefully time and testing allows us to find the optimal list and just crush people's dreams with it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkness
I agree with the bringing in 4 Decay and 4 Leyline is pretty abysmal, I think those match ups are just our decks natural enemy. I'd rather improve my other matches with Decay over those decks willing to bring Leyline against us. But I understand where you are coming from also.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStalk
A total different SB plan just popped up in my head. Since a few month's or so, people are testing a Depths Reanimator deck. Why don't we make this our SB plan (not for every matchup ofcourse)? People don't see it coming and if we lose G2, we can choose wich deck we will play. In this way G3 will be a surprise for our opponent.
Maybe this is all a bit far fetched, but some cells in my brain had this thought.. I also saw DNSolver testing with a Turbo Depths deck, so maybe you can give us some experience advantages/disadvantages?
Please take a look at this mtg top 8 deck:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=16268&d=300472&f=LE
Feel free to leave critics to improve this plan or to break it down ;)
Game 1
12 land:
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloostained Mire
2x Badlands
2x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 creatures:
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Griselbrand
1x Tidespout Titan
1x Grave Titan
28 instants and sorceries:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Entomb
4x Dark Ritual
4x Faithless Looting
4x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
4 enchantments:
4x Animate Dead
6 artifacts:
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
Sideboard:
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespain’s Stage
4x Vampire Hexmage
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Grave Titan
Game 2
21 land:
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloostained Mire
2x Swamp
1x Badlands
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespain’s Stage
10 creatures:
3x Griselbrand
2x Grave Titan
1x Tidespout Titan
4x Vampire Hexmage
24 instants and sorceries:
4x Entomb
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Collective Brutality
5 artifacts:
1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
Sideboard:
1x Griselbrand
1x Chrome Mox
1x Badlands
4x Animate Dead
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Faithless Looting