[Deck] Faerie Stompy

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Originally Posted by Illissius

Okay, so these are some good arguments for Sword of Light and Shadow in a vacuum (in addition, for some reason I was previously under the impression that it only gained two life to mirror the other Sword, so finding out that it's actually three also helps). So the next question is how the various equipment compare and how much of them to run total. I take it that SoLS is better than Jitte, going by the post above, and worse than SoFI, by the fact that most lists run more of the latter than the former. I also assume that one of the reasons old lists ran so much equipment is because there weren't enough good threats, yet you still had to run 60 cards. These days, though, there's no shortage of them. Up to what point are more Swords better than more threats? I mean, Dragon Stompy generally runs 0-2 equipment. Granted, their creatures are more threatening on their own than ours, but still. I think my main gripe with the equipment is that they're both slow / clumsy and artifacts, meaning often enough they're the card you'd most like to pitch to Chrome Mox and you can't. This is annoying. And it gets worse the more equipment you run, because odds are you'll want to get rid of Sword #2 a lot worse than if you only draw a single copy. Regardless, if you start from a base of four Swords of Fire and Ice, a Sigil, and four of each Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Pestermite, Sower of Temptation, and Mulldrifter, what would you cut to fit in Swords of Light and Shadow? I had assumed it was some combination of Pestermite and Sower, but going by Taco's previous post, if the worst creature in the deck is actually Serendib Efreet, would you cut some of those instead?

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SOLAS has been tested (by some of us) and found to be strong with the more modern critter configuration. Both Swords are better than Jitte because they not only make our (mostly) small fliers larger & scarier, not only because evasion allows said fliers to get the damage effect out of the Sword in question (as you alluded to) but because it allows the deck to play CotV2 with no qualms or hesitation. Assuming SoFI is better than SOLAS because more people play it is sloppy thinking, however, as decks evolve all the time. Decks are either perfect or evolving (although, to be fair, I suppose they can stagnate as well...). New cards force the evolutionary process, which now means that instead of having to run seven equipment to make the sparse creature choices threatening, FS can now run more quality threats with a lower equipment count. You alluded to this as well and I believe that you are correct. I'm currently running five equipment slots with an extra Sword in the SB, which I may well drop. The other factor in a lower equipment decision would be the ability of Trinket Mage to now fetch a piece of equipment. One of the reasons I prefer SOLAS is the ability of Trinket Mage to fetch the initial backbreaker (usually Chalice), heroically throw himself in front of something & then get recurred by a SOLAS equipped critter. Lacking an initial SOLAS, a second Trinket Mage can find whichever is more devastating, the second Chalice (I play one @ 2 ASAP most of the time) or the Sigil for a quick kill.

I don't believe that your assumed base of four SoFI & four Sower is either accepted or optimal. Glen Elendra Archmage has been as good if not better than Sower in my testing and I have already addressed SOLAS versus SoFI. Cutting Serendib would be a mistake, if anything can get trimmed it is part of the 4cc grouping and/or Pestermite. Pestermite is the weakest creature in the deck in my opinion, even with Back to Basics in the sideboard. I'm not calling him bad, simply the weakest critter in the deck.

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Originally Posted by scrumdogg

Assuming SoFI is better than SOLAS because more people play it is sloppy thinking

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I wasn't assuming that SoFI is better than SoLS for this reason -- I was assuming that most Faerie Stompy pilots believe this to be so, which I think is adequately indicated by their choosing to play more copies of one card than the other. Same thing with Sower vs. Archmage -- I have seen many people run Sower maindeck, but very few of them Archmage. I am approaching this from the perspective of being inexpert with the deck and asking questions of everyone else so that I can better my understanding.

Obviously much of this depends on metagame -- you clearly prefer SoLS and Archmage against control decks, SoFI against Goblins and other red and/or small creature decks, and Sower against large creatures. It has been my impression, though, based on this thread, that the 'default' choice between Sower and Archmage is Sower, and that a metagame would need to have quite an exceptional amount of control and combo before playing Archmage maindeck over Sower becomes the correct choice; and that this balance is different between SoLS and SoFI, as SoLS sees plenty of maindeck play even where Archmage does not (which is likely because while Sower is better than Archmage against the big creatures portion of the metagame, this is by no means true of SoFI compared to SoLS). Of course, popular opinion could be wrong, and the consensus may have shifted, which is why I'm asking how people would handle the SoFI vs. SoLS split these days.

One of the questions becomes, how many 4cc & 5cc spells can the deck truly support? I'm not sure that 4x Mulldrifter and 4x 4cc can be reasonable accommodated. Another strike against a full playset of Sowers (although these can also be ledgered against Archmage) include inability to utilize early as anything but Force-bait or a Mox imprint. A specific concern that I have about Sower is the fragility & that if you do lose the Sower, they get their creature back. This a concern against many of the 'big creature' decks in the DTB/W section. CotV1 is the goal against many of them, but not a guarantee, which means that STP (as well as their cantrips and Brainstorms) remain a concern. EE being able to take out my Chalices (and many of my beaters and equipment in a 3 color build) is also a concern. Snuff Out ignores Chalice and is a point in favor of SOLAS, forcing them to have the card in hand & use it how you dictate. These concerns cover Dreadstill, Thresh models, and Team America, for many of the other decks, Sower suffers in comparison to Archmage. Neither does much versus Goblins, I would rather have Archmage versus Aggro-Loam and Landstill models (as I'm much more concerned with Deed/EE/DD/Seismic Assault/WoG than their critters) and against TES/ANT/FT etc whatever possible utility Archmage provides is more relevant than Sower. I would greatly prefer a permanent exchange of their fat creature for my 3/3 Gilded Drake after sideboarding in almost every 'big creature' situation.

Searching for consensus is laudable, but many of these changes have been fairly recent. Not only is it is more difficult to achieve consensus in times of transition, but the results can be skewed (by experimental data, by those resistant to change for whatever reason, by those with incomplete or unreliable data). This becomes further complicated in Legacy, with it's Balkan swamp of local metagames. I'm sure that an agreed upon list will re-emerge after months of larger tournaments...but not until well after GP Chicago has passed.

The more recent lists seem to be playing a 3/3 split between the two Swords.

As for Sower vs. Glen Alara. I think there IS a consensus that Sower is the generally better option.

Sower is an aggressive card in a aggressive deck. It lets you swing for 7 damage the next turn for the win.

Glen Elandara is a very slow control card in an aggressive deck. It doesn't fit in quite as smoothly.

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Originally Posted by Illissius

Okay, so these are some good arguments for Sword of Light and Shadow in a vacuum (in addition, for some reason I was previously under the impression that it only gained two life to mirror the other Sword, so finding out that it's actually three also helps). So the next question is how the various equipment compare and how much of them to run total. I take it that SoLS is better than Jitte, going by the post above, and worse than SoFI, by the fact that most lists run more of the latter than the former. I also assume that one of the reasons old lists ran so much equipment is because there weren't enough good threats, yet you still had to run 60 cards. These days, though, there's no shortage of them. Up to what point are more Swords better than more threats? I mean, Dragon Stompy generally runs 0-2 equipment. Granted, their creatures are more threatening on their own than ours, but still. I think my main gripe with the equipment is that they're both slow / clumsy and artifacts, meaning often enough they're the card you'd most like to pitch to Chrome Mox and you can't. This is annoying. And it gets worse the more equipment you run, because odds are you'll want to get rid of Sword #2 a lot worse than if you only draw a single copy. Regardless, if you start from a base of four Swords of Fire and Ice, a Sigil, and four of each Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Trinket Mage, Pestermite, Sower of Temptation, and Mulldrifter, what would you cut to fit in Swords of Light and Shadow? I had assumed it was some combination of Pestermite and Sower, but going by Taco's previous post, if the worst creature in the deck is actually Serendib Efreet, would you cut some of those instead?

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It's worth noting that for several reasons, equipment is better in this deck than it is in Dragon Stompy. For one thing, Dragon Stompy's creatures are very capable of singlehandedly ending a game very quickly. Ours aren't. Secondly, Dragon Stompy has no way to replenish its threat base other than topdecking more, meaning that its best way to compensate for a lack of threats is to run more threats, and thereby less equipment.

For Faerie Stompy, however, our guys are all sneaky and evasive, but not overly huge. Our equipment turns every threat we have except Trinket Mage into a legitimate option to go the distance pretty quickly.

What's more? In Faerie Stompy? 1 Creature + 1 Equipment causes more damage than 2 Creatures. Observe the Life Swings:

Sea Drake: 4 Power, 4 Life Swing.
Serendib Efreet: 3 Power, -1 damage per turn, 2 Life Swing.
Trinket Mage: 2 Power, 2 Life Swing
Sower of Temptation: 2 Power + Power of what it steals, 2 + X Life Swing.
Mulldrifter: 2 Power, 2 Life Swing
Pestermite: 2 Power, 2 Life Swing

So all of our creatures only net a Life Swing of 2 except the ever awesome Sea Drake. Now look at our equipment.

Sword of Fire and Ice: +2 power, +2 damage when it hits, 4 Life Swing.
Sword of Light and Shadow: +2 power, +3 life when it hits, 5 Life Swing.

This isn't counting the card draw, threat recursion, pinging, and protection that the equipments also provide. The point is that your equipment kills your opponents faster than your threats do. You just need a body to stick it on to go to work.

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Has any thought been given to using Powder Keg in the board to blow up Factories, Dreadnoughts, Mongeese, Confidants and Goyfs all day long?

That can be quite handy especially since it doesn't effect any of you own creatures, and it can kill multiple creatures at once against hoarde decks.

It's the best board option that F. Stompy has against Affinity, Elves, Eva Green and even Goblins to some degree.

And it can played turn one off an ancient tomb if you don't have a Chrome Mox handy, (or turn one off an island + mox if you don't have an ancient tomb handy).

If you don't think it works, please explain why.

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Because almost everything Powder Keg can do, the deck can already do in some other way. Engineered Explosives handles everything at the 1-cost and 0-cost slots. Confidants can be killed with SOFI or blocked with Chalice for 2. Tarmogoyfs can be stolen with Sower of Temptation, outraced with SOLS or SOFI, stalled out with Pestermite, or blocked with Chalice for 2. Granted, it would be decent against Affinity, but that's rarely worth it. Additional Sowers and Pithing Needle are your best bets here, as well as SOFI to pick off random Frogmites/Disciples/Whatevers.

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

The more recent lists seem to be playing a 3/3 split between the two Swords.

As for Sower vs. Glen Alara. I think there IS a consensus that Sower is the generally better option.

Sower is an aggressive card in a aggressive deck. It lets you swing for 7 damage the next turn for the win.

Glen Elandara is a very slow control card in an aggressive deck. It doesn't fit in quite as smoothly.

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I think this is actually a fairly accurate description of exactly why Sower gets the maindeck slot and not Glen Elendra Archmage. In theory, FS is the aggro deck, and aggro decks don't like keeping mana open. And if you aren't keeping mana open, Glen Elendra's just a slightly resilient small flyer.

Sometimes, if the matchup requires it when the opponent is packing lots of removal, I take out one or two Serendibs and insert Glen Elendra Archmage.

Reason: Protect the cards that make the life swing: Sower, Drake, and the Swords

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Originally Posted by Dr. DOOM

Sometimes, if the matchup requires it when the opponent is packing lots of removal, I take out one or two Serendibs and insert Glen Elendra Archmage.

Reason: Protect the cards that make the life swing: Sower, Drake, and the Swords

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Which is probably fairly sensible. Serendib Efreet's not all that great in some matchups. Although in extreme control matchups, you want Sower out more than Serendib, because while Serendib's life swing in a damage race is only 2, in a damage-versus-irreversible board control scenario, it's still dealing three and your 1 damage isn't always relevant.

Glen Elendra Archmage is silly fun against Pernicious Deed packing decks, though. I've started running them in board after coming to the conclusion that I didn't like Jitte in board and I'm still not sold on Back to Basics but can't think of anything better.

So, aside from all the discussion on which Sword to use,

Esperzoa is an auto-4 of, right?

Edit - Oh, I guess I missed that page. Oh well. Continue on discussing irrelevant stuff again.

I've been having a lot of trouble with 4-5 color Zoo, and I can't think of a good way to deal with it. I'm 0-5 against it, including a key loss in round one of the Meandeck Open (I had Chalices at one and two, and a SoLS equipped Trinket Mage when he topdecked a Shattering Spree and replicated it three times. Oh well...).

Looking at recent DTB data, there's a good chance that Zoo will be at GP Chicago in significant amounts, and I want to have a plan.

Chalice at one is our strongest play against Zoo, and Chalices at one and two is gg game one. The problem is that Zoo runs Shattering Spree/Smash to Smithereens/Krosan Grip or all three in the sideboard. The other huge problem we have is that Ancient Tomb damage combined with their beaters and burn is too much damage to deal with.

Here's my list for reference:



// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
9 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [P2] Sea Drake
4 [AN] Serendib Efreet
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
4 [LRW] Pestermite
1 [SC] Shoreline Ranger

// Spells
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [ALA] Sigil of Distinction

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics

I thought about cutting a Sower and a Propaganda for two Umezawa's Jitte to offset some of the life loss, but with Dreadstill's prevalence, I really want access to four Sowers. I'd cut the Propagandas, but I'm worried about the Goblin and Ichorid matchups. I love having three Glen Elendra Archmage, but the third one is a luxury.

What would you guys do against Zoo/Burn?

I wouldn't still play Propagandas since they pretty much suck across the boards. I've been saying it for a few months, but for some reason they're being adopted universally.

I simply go for the beatdown against Zoo. If they pack Shattering Spree, you don't want to rely on Chalice to win; use it to buy time and force them to waste their spells while you waste their heads. The aggro components of the deck are at the very least as important as the control components.

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Esperzoa is an auto-4 of, right?

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Not an auto 4-of, but the Flying Jellyfish is definitely worth a shot.

I'll be testing it as soon as the set goes out.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

I wouldn't still play Propagandas since they pretty much suck across the boards. I've been saying it for a few months, but for some reason they're being adopted universally.

I simply go for the beatdown against Zoo. If they pack Shattering Spree, you don't want to rely on Chalice to win; use it to buy time and force them to waste their spells while you waste their heads. The aggro components of the deck are at the very least as important as the control components.

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Originally Posted by sasa_batora

5c Zoo would very appreciate B2B, too... In combination with Silent Arbiter / Propaganda, if you play it, who knows..?

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Propagandas don't do much to Zoo, and we have other options against Ichorid and EtW tokens. Maybe it's time to cut them. But what to replace them with?

The problem with simply being beatdown against Zoo is that you can't do it with an Ancient Tomb, which severely limits our speed and options. Our best bet is something like turn one Chalice turn two big beater off a City, but those hands are rare. The real problem comes in games two and three when the artifact removal comes in.

B2B seems like it could be good, but I don't think it's the answer we need. So far the best ideas I can come up with are Jitte and blue blasts, but I don't really like either.

Anyone have a better idea than Jitte and blue blasts?

Zoo has to be our worst matchup.

Chalice and Blue Blast don't play nicely together, unless that is a 1:1 swap, which seems bad. Also, what other decks would you truly want Blue Blasts for? B2B seems like it should be very good against Zoo - they are tight on mana, very low on basics (if they have any at all...), and they want to use their mana every turn. Combining Chalice, B2B & FoW/Archmage with our aggro should make life as hard for them as they make it for us.

Is Chill worth investigating over Blue Blast, given the nature of wanting to Chal-1 against most things red?

Chill should be infinitely better than Blue Blasts but is it broad enough? Or are people positing a significant presence of Zoo/Burn/Sligh/Goyf Sligh for GP Chicago. If so, what factors do you believe will contribute to a huge showing of that contingent & why? Lastly, I am starting to test 3x Wipe Away as a sideboard option. I would certainly trade a Wipe Away to get my about to be Grudged/Spree'd Chalice back in my hand, but testing will show whether the card earns a slot. It is aimed more locally (Enchantress & Counter-Top specifically) but may have broader application.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Is Chill worth investigating over Blue Blast, given the nature of wanting to Chal-1 against most things red?

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My primary reason for BEB is to maximize answers to Joblin Lackey on the draw turn 1 ('cause that's the primary means for them to beat you; if Lackey doesn't connect, you tend to be golden), and to blast Aggro Loam's dudes. Chill is great in the opening hand, but it's kinda meh as a topdeck (unlike BEB) and doesn't answer those stupid Lackeys nor deal with Vials and all that.

I used to have Chill, but really, the primary red decks in the format are Aggro Loam and Goblins (and I suppose Goyf Sligh), and against Goblins, BEB is better and against Aggro Loam, it's about the same (turn 1 Chill is huge, but turn 3-4 Chill won't do a whole lot). The possible use against the other decks is just icing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and BEB is a beating on Dragon Stompy, as they side out Chalices vs. you.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

My primary reason for BEB is to maximize answers to Joblin Lackey on the draw turn 1 ('cause that's the primary means for them to beat you; if Lackey doesn't connect, you tend to be golden), and to blast Aggro Loam's dudes. Chill is great in the opening hand, but it's kinda meh as a topdeck (unlike BEB) and doesn't answer those stupid Lackeys nor deal with Vials and all that.

I used to have Chill, but really, the primary red decks in the format are Aggro Loam and Goblins (and I suppose Goyf Sligh), and against Goblins, BEB is better and against Aggro Loam, it's about the same (turn 1 Chill is huge, but turn 3-4 Chill won't do a whole lot). The possible use against the other decks is just icing.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and BEB is a beating on Dragon Stompy, as they side out Chalices vs. you.

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No disagreement on Dragon Stompy, we both board out Chalices. That deck seems to see less and less play, however, and has disappeared for the most part locally. What is your plan versus Goblins? Board in the Blue Blasts for the one game where you are on the draw? Both games? Leave the Chalices in and simply set them at 2? I am most curious to get your insights as you have exponentially more time & skill invested in the deck than the rest of us. Also, would you consider updating the OP with either a modern decklist, either replacing the original list or better yet in addition to the original (since starting points have relevancy both historical & comparative)? I'm sure it would help as a reference point, especially for people new to the format/board/deck.

I've been meaning to rewrite the OP for a while now. I've just been a tad busy. As for Blue Elemental Blasts, I only bring them in on the draw (for 3 Chalices, as it's rather weak on the draw; on the play, on the other hand, Chalice at 1 turn 1 is pretty much GG). If they play Weirdings and Tin Street, I'll leave two-three (depending on how much I have to bring in) Chalices in to cast one at 2 later.

I haven't done extensive testing vs. versions with Swords to Plowshares, so I'm not entirely sure if Chalice at 1 is good enough on the draw there, but generally, if you can kill the Lackey and get rid of the Vial, you're going to win. Also, since they play a relatively low amount of removal, Sower of Temptation is surprisingly good. Stealing Goblin Warbeefs and Gangbangers greatly weakens their board and gives you a blocker for Piledriver. The recent versions have sucky removal and generally have trouble killing Sower.

I sort of agree on all the Blue Elemental Hydroblast points. Just wanted to know if Chill had been looked at.

With more and more and more control decks leaning towards fast fat kill conditions (Goyf, Stalker, whatevs) and less actual removal, is it becoming more and more worthwhile to maindeck more than 2 Sower of Temptations? I'm really wanting to maindeck 3-4 and see where it goes, and I think I'm going to start testing this and cut down to three Serendibs.

I've been maindecking 3 for god-knows-how-long and rarely been sorry to see them. Just saying.