[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

How much better is Tin Street #4 than Tinkerer #1?

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This is really an old debate that hits three points.

Point 1. If Warchief is stopped or not out yet, Tinkerer usually gets killed before he does his job.

Point 2. If Warchief is alive and well, when do you -ever- need to kill an artifact? Pithing Needle is the only thing I can think of that would cause problems.

Point 3. 2/1 is infinitely more aggressive than 1/2. It makes a difference.

For what it's worth, though, I dropped back to three for the fourth Incinerator. (Four was only a metagame call)

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Originally Posted by Lepp

Wort, Boggart Auntie - I've rarely been able to use her effectively. I think I've used her for a weirding lock once, but even then I think it was just a win more. Usually by the time I drop her, my opponent has enough creature hate ready to take care of her. She is seems to be a priority target for my opponent. I've been running her as a 2 of, and I'm probably dropping her.

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Same conclusion I came to, although she does tend to be a must-remove in certain situations. It's rare I would want to go Matron for her when I could just Matron for a Ringleader and get a guaranteed hand refill, though.

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Mad Auntie - Better in the mirror than king. Have to have a warchief out to use her. I face a lot of plague hate, and she has been very good to counter plague. In a plague deck, she is a priority target.

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I was also surprised how good Auntie is turning out to be. The regeneration ability is a lot more relevant than I first suspected.

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Warren Wierding- Sux in the mirror, great early but after multiple creatures are out it becomes very weak.

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It also isn't applying any pressure. I've beaten you in at least two separate games where if your Weirdings were any sort of threat at all I'd have probably lost.

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Boggart Mob - Win more. When I've used him, Siege gang would of done just as good.

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Agreed. The exception being against Plague/COP: Red. But anything big can usually just be another Siege-Gang Commander, hence why Kiki-Jiki got cut out from most builds.

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Originally Posted by Lepp

Wort, Boggart Auntie - I've rarely been able to use her effectively. I think I've used her for a weirding lock once, but even then I think it was just a win more. Usually by the time I drop her, my opponent has enough creature hate ready to take care of her. She is seems to be a priority target for my opponent. I've been running her as a 2 of, and I'm probably dropping her.

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Wort is definitely slow, but it's ridiculous if it goes unanswered. It's also really good against board sweepers (especially Clasm) and it's solid in the mirror. Fear is also be surprisingly relevant.

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Originally Posted by Lepp

Warren Wierding- Sux in the mirror, great early but after multiple creatures are out it becomes very weak.

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I've found Weirding to be amazing. It helps let Lackeys connect (which is obviously HUGE), and it deals with Goyfs and Mongeese. I've found this to be more important than strengthening the late game. And while Weirding is definitely terrible the mirror, at least it's not completely dead; you can occasionally target yourself with it and get an extra creature.

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Originally Posted by Lepp

So far running black (I use 22 lands, 3 ports, 2 wastes) I have had more than a few games where I just couldn't get the right land down. Running black give the deck a more control fill, but feels like it slows goblins down. I have actually finished on average worse than when i was running mono red. In my opinion, black just gets in the way of being a fast aggro deck and makes the deck more controlish. Goblins hasn't done very well for me in this form.

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My manabase is 23 lands, including 4 Wastelands and a basic Swamp. I'd suggest trying that. I haven't had any major problems with the manabase other than randomly drawing the basic Swamp, which sometimes sucks. I'm back and forth on whether I still want it or not.

Running black definitely gives the deck a different feel, but I don't feel like it slows it down significantly. I've found that the additional removal and recursion adds more power to the deck and provides more options, but doesn't interfere with the deck's main gameplan of smashing face with little red men.

Here is my deck that I'll be using for a university tournament this friday:
Couldn't find anymore piledrivers and wasn't willing to pay 13 a piece on ebay.

What do you guys think?

Also I know there'll be some sliver, dragon storm, affinity, enchantress decks at the tournament.. I've never played against them with Goblins so I'm not too sure how I'll do against them.. Any advice is much appreciated.

// Lands
9 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Rishadan Port
3x Auntie's Hovel
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
3 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

I'm a strong advocate of playing all 8 fetches in Legacy Goblins with a mana base consisting of 23 lands. I wouldn't bother playing lands like Rishadan Port or Auntie's Hovel is Legacy.

I play with the standard goblin package which includes 2 seige-gang's, 1 Wort, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Tin Street with 2 incinerators and 3 wierding for right now.

This configuration has worked very well for me at this point. The sideboard is always a debate topic in Goblins.

This is my current board:

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I wouldn't bother playing lands like Rishadan Port or Auntie's Hovel is Legacy.

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While I agree that Auntie's Hovel isn't worth playing, but I totally disagree about Port. The mana denial package is still very relevant and can help you win games.

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Originally Posted by kabal

While I agree that Auntie's Hovel isn't worth playing, but I totally disagree about Port. The mana denial package is still very relevant and can help you win games.

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I prefer the color consistency since now I play Warren Weirding main deck. I want consistent black and red mana on the board. Myself and Tenniebopper both agree on this point since Morningtide became legal.

I was a big fan of port before weirding, but now I feel that its too much an inconsistent mana base if you play port.

I would like to know what some of the other goblin players think on this point.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I prefer the color consistency since now I play Warren Weirding main deck. I want consistent black and red mana on the board. Myself and Tenniebopper both agree on this point since Morningtide became legal.

I was a big fan of port before weirding, but now I feel that its too much an inconsistent mana base if you play port.

I would like to know what some of the other goblin players think on this point.

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I agree, I'd much rather have color consistency to be able to overwhelm the opponent.

Why would you guys play any number of Hovels before 4 Badlands? I dont know if everyone here advocating Hovel is doing this, but thats what the list a few posts above does...and that is just plain wrong. Badlands is STRICTLY better than Hovel. Personally, I dont think Hovel is needed with 8 fetches and up to 4 Badlands, theres always the possibility of someone Wastelanding you out of a game just like we try to do...

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

Why would you guys play any number of Hovels before 4 Badlands? I dont know if everyone here advocating Hovel is doing this, but thats what the list a few posts above does...and that is just plain wrong. Badlands is STRICTLY better than Hovel. Personally, I dont think Hovel is needed with 8 fetches and up to 4 Badlands, theres always the possibility of someone Wastelanding you out of a game just like we try to do...

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The point, I think, was to play Hovel as Badlands 5-8 in place of Wooded Foothills, reducing your dependency on Fetchlands to conserve life and avoid having your face chewed off by Stifle.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

The point, I think, was to play Hovel as Badlands 5-8 in place of Wooded Foothills, reducing your dependency on Fetchlands to conserve life and avoid having your face chewed off by Stifle.

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But then you'll just get owned by Wasteland. Is saving one life better than being able to fetch basics?

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Originally Posted by Jak.

But then you'll just get owned by Wasteland. Is saving one life better than being able to fetch basics?

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Probably not, no. I was just merely pointing out to Bovi that Auntie's Hovel wasn't being suggested as a Badlands replacement.

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Originally Posted by P-AiR

Here is my deck that I'll be using for a university tournament this friday:
Couldn't find anymore piledrivers and wasn't willing to pay 13 a piece on ebay.

What do you guys think?

Also I know there'll be some sliver, dragon storm, affinity, enchantress decks at the tournament.. I've never played against them with Goblins so I'm not too sure how I'll do against them.. Any advice is much appreciated.

// Lands
9 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Rishadan Port
3x Auntie's Hovel
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
3 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

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Thinking of taking out Wort, Weirding, and tinkerer for 2 tin streets and side board 4 krosan grips.. The problem is I only have 1 taiga and 4 Stomping Grounds.. Unfortunately I only have 3 fetches. Still heavily debating on which route to take since if I do black I'd be sideboarding Cabal therapies/thoughtseize and maybe even extirpate.. With green, I'd board KGrips/Tranquil Domain.

There is a problem with lands
With Black: 3x Auntie Hovels / 2x Badlands
With Green: 4x Stomping Grounds / 1x Taiga

This coming friday's tournament consists of players who run Slivers, Enchantress, Dragon Storm, MUC (w/ Arcane Laboratories/Standstill), Affinity, and Suicide black decks.

Any advice on how to deal with these certain type of decks?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by kabal

While I agree that Auntie's Hovel isn't worth playing, but I totally disagree about Port. The mana denial package is still very relevant and can help you win games.

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If you have to worry about stuff like Humility and Moat (or any other double color hosers in 3+ color decks), then by all means, keep running port. But if you don't, then you're better off utilizing your mana in a way that advances your game plan.

Also, random thought I had the other day- Cutting green, adding Mad Auntie to the board for Plague (god, it hurt just to type that), and adding Blood Moon to the board. Even after the rise of Dragon Stompy and Moon Thresh, 90% of the format totally packs it to a stuck Moon effect. It's easy enough to play a single basic swamp to support Weirding, Auntie, or whatever other black cards you might run (<3 j00, Shriekmaw).

Also, I'm leaning towards cutting Wort due to the Kiki-Jiki factor.

edit: Dragonstorm? Seriously? Can't you just kill them on turn four or something? The only deck in that list I would be scared of is Enchantress. Oh, and Affinity. Fuck that match-up.

You want to run Rbg agains that field. Weirdings will be good against Suicide, Enchantress and Slivers. TSH will be good against Slivers and Affinity

This is the Rbg list that I've been playing, it's fairly standard.

4 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Rishidan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirdings

EDIT:
I love Wort. If it sticks, you win. IMO Wort >>>>> Kiki Jiki.

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Originally Posted by Mental

I love Wort. If it sticks, you win. IMO Wort >>>>> Kiki Jiki.

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If it sticks, you were going to win anyways.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

If it sticks, you were going to win anyways.

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Actually, no. Let's say you play the deck well and have held a Wort in your hand all game while they've exhausted themselves vs. all your other stuff. Now you play Wort, and suddenly, you win.
Now let's say that Wort was a Kiki Jiki. Oops. That doesn't help too much. Now you have to rely on a topdeck to win.
I'm not saying Wort is better than Ringleader or anything, I'm just saying it's better than Kiki-Jiki/More SGC/More Gempalms, etc.

Warren Weirding is just that much better than Gempalm? I haven't even play tested my deck yet so I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by P-AiR

Warren Weirding is just that much better than Gempalm? I haven't even play tested my deck yet so I have no idea.

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Yes, it is. It has a much better chance of getting Lackey to connect T1, and is just in general less situational.

You're not getting the comparison. They're similar in that they're win-more cards.

If you can get Kiki going, you were going to win anyways. If you can get Wort recursion going, you were also going to win anyways.

I've never once tutored for Wort, and if I have a choice between playing her or Ringleader/SGC (or even Matron to get Ringleader/SGC), I play the latter.

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Originally Posted by P-AiR

Warren Weirding is just that much better than Gempalm? I haven't even play tested my deck yet so I have no idea.

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God yes. Weirding kills turn one Mongoose and turn two 'goyfs. Also, you know how hard it is to Gempalm out a 4/5 or 5/6 'goyf when you absolutely have to? Really, really hard.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

You're not getting the comparison. They're similar in that they're win-more cards.

If you can get Kiki going, you were going to win anyways. If you can get Wort recursion going, you were also going to win anyways.

I've never once tutored for Wort, and if I have a choice between playing her or Ringleader/SGC (or even Matron to get Ringleader/SGC), I play the latter.

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Even in the late game, when your graveyard is filled with cards like Ringleader? For instance, vs. UBG Landstill - Ringleader or Wort? I'd take Wort nearly 100% of the time. They have no way of removing him except for Deed, and that's slow and clunky. The same applies with UBGw, as you can usually shut down their White Mana, and against UBG Threshold, it seems to me.