Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
As for the mana configuration i run with this:
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 crystal vein
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
3 flagstone of trokair
8 plains
4 mox diamonds
1 marble diamond.
Just on my exprience in dealing with burn.
Sphere of Law - abit slow if don't get any mana accelerants or turbo lands becasue of its 3:w: casting cost. But when you have 2 in play it would to totally shutdown your opponent. But still seems to be the best choice, though i haven't tried COP:Red.
Sphere of Resistance - 50/50 problem with it (red/burn) has tons of artifact hate which sometimes isn't worth bec it will just live for 1-2 turns. but good against combo and threshold decks.
Zuran Orb- 50/50 (red/burn) has tons of artifact hate.
Nomad Stadium - only good after a geddon or if you hit threshold which is slow.
Circle of Protection: Red - Never tried but im tempted in trying, seems a good choice for me
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Congrats on the win, Its good to see your quite happy with the results of your research...
Regarding 2 mana lands, I would never run less than 7. 4 tombs and 3 city is the right count for me, the thing is, it provides acceleration to get an early lock piece down. I used to advice my cousin, that if he plays against a stax player waste his 2 mana lands early and you'll find him strugging to put down a lock piece, thus buying you time to get in more damage. Fred Bear is also right in saying that 2 mana lands saves you more than it kills you. Ive lost a few games due to ancient tomb and at times having 2 of them at a time, but I never really thought of replacing them as I knew their importance to the deck.
As I looked at crystal vein, although their good because they provide you options, They suck if you need the 2 mana early. Sacrificing a land to get the 2 mana early on, might get you land screwed eventually and cause you to lose the game, specially we run so many 4 drops.(wee need that 2 mana producer constantly).
As for burn, I always considered circle of protection as one of the best protection. Its a little mana intensive, but it stops the pain. SPhere of law is just like warmth, but this only applies to red burn spells.
I partially agree to what fredbear stated that the new stax does not really improve our bad match ups( landstill, land.dec, loam variants,muc) and thus it is not a major upgrade. However it does improve the good - even ones slightly enough to warrant more testing. It also has an improvement against survival variants just because of humility. Their tool box creature approach is completely nullified by humility alone. The only problem I really saw in this is that it tends to be slower then geddon stax, and creature permanents multiplying like crazy on the other table waiting for a disenchant effect. This is due to the absence of the armageddon magus lock. My conclusion, it needs more testing.But its good none the less.
@Fred Bear , 3 card combo?
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
@f|i[p]
Maybe main boarding several warth of god or powder keg could work for the 1/1 tokens waiting for a disenchant effect or a red splash for pyroclasm or fire spout.
But if you go the Humility route, and rely only on Elspeth alone as your win con its kinda slow. Maybe mobilization could help ?
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I am not really sold on cop:r.
The reason is that I am generally a huge pessimist when it comes to drawing things when I need to, but honesty; more often than not by a very large margin, I will have three mana on turn two and curve out into four on the third. Between first turn chalice, stuff like 3sphere and so forth, getting a sphere of law out isn't hard for me. With cop:r, I have to continuosly pump mana into it, it can get pith'd the odd time when a chalice for one isn't around to stop it and the one mana burn that I will often take casting it could be very costly in some situations.
In many situation it is apples and oranges (so the expression goes), save for each having distinct advantages, like cop allowing you to create a force field in some situations in response to it getting knocked-off, but meh. Sphere hasn't let me down yet.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
f|i[p]
I partially agree to what fredbear stated that the new stax does not really improve our bad match ups( landstill, land.dec, loam variants,muc) and thus it is not a major upgrade.
Well my meta doesn't have any land.dec, yes MUC and Landstill still are tough, but Loam has improved significantly. It's a 50-50 match now, perhaps leaning more towards Stax. Mainly because of Humility, it shuts them down good if it gets through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_erbs_
But if you go the Humility route, and rely only on Elspeth alone as your win con its kinda slow. Maybe mobilization could help ?
At least it's worth a try :smile:.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I'm taking a leap and writing out what my Stax list is, and what I'm doing about each possible matchup. I prefer the traditional Geddon Stax, with Crucible, Prison, and Magus and Armageddon. Without further ado:
Lands:
7 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kor Haven
26 Lands
Notes about the lands:
7 Plains just feels right. It ended up being the 61st card when I built the deck. 4 City/Tomb is right for me. No need to start that discussion. There are only 2 Mishra's Factory's because I only own 2 of the DCI foil ones. It's never been a problem, but if I can pick up a 3rd one it'll probably replace Plains or Ghost Quarter. Ghost Quarter is randomly good, but it never throws me off enough to remove it from the build. Kor Haven has proven amazing. Often it does nothing, but sometimes a Tombstalker can fly over your Moat and through your Ghostly Prisons. That's when Kor Haven shines.
Maindeck
Creatures:
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
Artifacts:
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
Enchantments:
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Moat
Spells:
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
Sideboard:
3 Aura of Silence
3 Damping Matrix
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
---------------
2 Runed Halo
3 Humility
So let's go!
On the creatures:
Exalted Angel wins many, many games. I considered cutting it for a while, but I couldn't think of a card that did what Angel does. This card is often your out to a burn deck that got 4 lands and you didn't draw Armageddon. Angel helps you race random Sligh creatures. She also ends games fast when you can't afford to risk the late-game strategy. That said, she's also a good diversion. If the cards in my hand are telling me I'm winning the game with Armageddon I have no problem throwing the Angel into a Force of Will.
Magus is good. He blocks everything but a mutant Tarmogoyf and lives. The taxing effect of him combined with Ghostly Prison is still good. This version of Stax attacks two weaknesses of the format: Creatures have to attack and people have to combo to win. If people can't attack with their creatures they probably can't win. He's also another form of mana denial, though he's not as reliable for that.
Artifacts:
Chalice of the Void is at 4, I don't think that's ever been in contest. I recently dropped my Trinisphere number to 3 to support 1 more Ghostly Prison. I don't know if I'll stick to this or yet, but it doesn't change the deck significantly. 4 Crucible is the number I like. I've seen builds with 3 or 2, that just seems like wasted slots if you don't have 4. Mox Diamond exists. Smokestack is a scary card for a lot of players, especially people who have played against Stax. I've become familiar with the psychological aspect of playing Stax. A lot of people remember what it's like to lose because Stax blew up all their lands, or made them sac all their shit to the Smokestack. People play this game for fun, and Smokestack (along with Geddon) is not a fun card. It's fun for me! Also, Smokestack will wreck permanent-light decks, and resolving 'geddon means they start sacrificing Tarmogoyf's and other stuff that's otherwise hard to remove. I've toyed with 3 and 4 stacks, I like four better.
Enchantments:
Like I said, this deck attacks the principle that creatures have to attack me for me to lose the game. Legacy is largely an aggro format, and the deck punishes that. Ghostly Prison stops a few decks cold. Goblins and Ichorid usually have no out to this card game 1. Multiple copies stop things like Sligh, random aggro decks etc. Any deck that has to pay to attack has a dilema: pay to attack with 1 guy or pay to put more guys on the board? Attacking is almost always the correct choice, but with the mana denial in this deck they're probably only attacking with 1 creature, and either a Magus or Crucible'd Mishra's Factory can stop it (sometimes). This is a good card that forces the opponent to ration out already scarce resources. Moat was simply added as the 5th Prison effect a long time ago and it's stayed in the deck because it wins a lot of games.
Spells:
At this point you should know the deck is based around mana denial, and the slight psychological edge of playing cards that make people miserable. Armageddon is perfect! The card has so much synergy with the rest of the deck, I run 5! Ravages is just a cooler Armageddon, and people are usually impressed that I found a copy (pack mint, too!). Of all the cards in the deck, Armageddon ends the most games. So many decks in this format play 22 or less lands, including fetches. If an opponent has 4 lands in play and has fetched 2 of them, he/she has 16 left. By the time they've got to 2 more Stax has already rebuilt and set up Smokestack or Prison or something else game breaking. With something like Trinisphere on the table they aren't back in the game until 3 turns later at best, while with City and Tomb you're back in 2 turns later.
Notes on the board:
Aura of Silence: This card is simply better than Disenchant or Seal of Cleansing. For an extra white it's a Seal of Cleansing that stops combos and causes more mana denial.
Damping Matrix: Almost exclusively for decks running AEther Vial, I stumbled upon the fact that Affinity can't deal with this card. It's randomly good too, like against Figure of Destiny.
Sphere of Resistance: This card is tricky to play right. You need to bring this in to slow the game down. Nevermind that it stops combo decks (though that's another reason it's here). There are certain times when slowing the game benefits you more than your opponent, or doesn't benefit them at all.
Trinisphere: This is a pretty recent change. I just like having access to the 4th copy for things like Burn, Belcher, Sligh, Threshold, or whatever. This might change before the Grand Prix.
Runed Halo: This is a new thing, I've never tried it. I used to have Oblivion Ring in my board, but I wanted it out. O-ring is good, but it doesn't really hold up to the pressure on cards in the sideboard. They need to be as universal as possible, and O-Ring is a little too slow for my taste. I'm picturing naming Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Goblin Charbelcher, Ichorid, Fireblast, Tendrils of Agony, blah blah blah. Who knows.
Humility: A couple weeks ago I played 1 in my board and I wished I had more. It couples well with Ghostly Prison/Moat. It also dramatically helps the Survival matchup, which I'm like 1-12 with on games played. My good friend is a great mind in the Survival archetype and we've agreed that Stax can't deal with how that deck puts permanents into play fast and can make enough mana with just 1 or 2 lands. Humility is probably going to come in over the Angels a lot, they just don't work together. I can see situations where this is just bad though, so I'm really open to change on this slot.
Here is a list of match-ups and the relevant cards:
Goblins: You're leaning on Ghostly Prison, Moat, Magus here. Any 1 of these cards really hurts the deck. Combined with Armageddon you win the game. Here you are the control deck. Games 2 and 3 should be +3 Humility +2 Runed Halo +1 Trinisphere, -4 Smokestack, -2 Chalice of the Void.
Threshold: This is hard. You're still the control deck but you have less ways to control the game. The best cards to resolve here are Armageddon and Smokestack. Thresh usually runs 18 lands, and 2 or 3 basics. Fetching included, even losing 3 lands is unbearable for Thresh. They also can't dump things onto the board, so Smokestack can put them out of the game fast. Part of the trick is throwing things like Chalice at 1 down turn 1. They'll have to Force that, or else you're in good shape. Try to lure counters out with Crucible and Exalted Angel. This match-up gets significantly better or worse based on the player. At the worst it's probably 40-60 in their favor. Knowing what to do improves your odds a lot.
+3 Humility, +1 Trinisphere, +2 Runed Halo, -3 Exalted Angel, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Smokestack, -1 Ghostly Prison
Rock Deck: With cards like Duress and Thoughtsieze the Rock is going to prove annoying. Make sure you don't keep a hand with 1 good card and you should be alright. Big players in this match again are Prison and Moat. The biggest problem is Pernicious Deed. Game 1 you really have no out to this card. Either don't let them play it or keep some stuff back to recover fast (1 or 2 turns). If I owned Pithing Needle it would be in the board just for this. Game 2 you have Aura of Silence to stop Deed. It's not much, but this matchup isn't a problem if you play around Deed.
Landstill: You'll end up scooping. This match is profoundly difficult. They're manabase is designed to work with Wasteland and Crucible. They have Engineered Explosives that can be set up to 4, and Academy Ruins to recur it. Eternal Dragon helps then with land problems and between Standstill, Force of Will, Fact of Fiction, Counterspell etc, you won't be resolving anything useful. This deck is almost tailored to beat Stax. Pray, draw and hope for the best. When sideboarding you need all the pressure you can put on the board. They'll probably side out Humility.
Dreadnought Variants: Sometimes Ghostly Prison is an out for a while here, or Moat. Just hope you resolve something. Play your spells expecting them to get countered, and play like you're not losing.
+3 Aura of Silence, +3 Damping Matrix; -4 Smokestack, -2 Armageddon
Sligh: This is a lot harder than it first appears. With the right cards you can keep them off mana and unable to attack with their creatures. Watch out for burn spells that plink away at your life. Chalice and Trinisphere are great here, set Chalice at 1 or 2, base your choice on what they're already played. Prison and Moat stop their creatures from attacking, Geddon will win you the game. Occasionally they'll draw good and crush you faster than you can handle. If they resolve Grim Lavamancer make sure you have a plan.
Everything in the board can come in except Aura. Make the decision based on what you see game 1, and if you've seen your opponent play before and know his/her sideboard strategy.
Ichorid: Kind of a win or lose situation here. Accelerate into Ghostly Prison, even mulligan into it. Trinisphere works well here. Setting Chalice at 1 to stop Breakthrough is useful, but they can still play Cabal Therapy by sacrificing creatures. They don't get the spell, but they get the triggers. Post board you have more cards that stop them from playing stuff. If you've made it to turn 3 and you have 3-Sphere, Sphere of Resistance or Prison down you're in good shape.
+1 Trinisphere, +3 Sphere of Resistance; -4 Smokestack
Mono Red Burn: Easy. Chalice, 3-Sphere or whatever can get you enough time to land Angel or something until you can resolve Armageddon. If they're using Ankh of Mishra watch that you don't do something dumb and lose on accident. Unless you play stupidly you should win 2-0. Post board not a lot changes, you can bring in Sphere of Resistance if you want.
+1 Trinisphere, +3 Sphere of Resistance, -4 Ghostly Prison
Enchantress: I don't have a lot of experience with this. 'Chantress craps out a lot of stuff fast, making Smokestack pretty bad. A friend of mine familiar with both of these decks says it favors Stax. Feel free to add info. I guess the games would go long, and that favors Stax quite a bit. Post board bringing in Aura and Runed Halo are your best bets.
+3 Aura of Silence, +2 Runed Halo; -4 Ghostly Prison, -1 Moat
Storm Combo: No matter what the build, you have the tools to win. 3-sphere, Chalice, Armageddon. Be aggressive with Factory and your creatures and you should win. Post board they might have Rebuild so win fast.
+3 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Runed Halo, +2 Aura of Silence, +1 Trinisphere; -4 Ghostly Prison, -1 Moat, -1 Kor Haven, -1 Smokestack, -1 Crucible of Worlds
Painter Variants: I never see these decks in my local metagame. I'll probably put 1 Blessing in the board come Grand Prix. Bring in Aura, Halo and Damping Matrix. Maybe Humility. Chalice at 1 or 2 is good.
+2 Runed Halo, +3 Aura of Silence, +3 Damping Matrix; -whatever isn't relevant.
Survival: This is hard. Their creature toolbox can deal with anything you throw out there. They can keep up on permanents. They'll get Rofellos, Birds and Genesis back Harmonic Sliver while Loxodon Hierarch kills you. Board in Damping Matrix, Aura and Humility.
+3 Humility, +3 Aura of Silence, +3 Damping Matrix; -4 Smokestack, -3 Trinisphere, -1 Armageddon, -1 Crucible of Worlds
The Fear/Loam Variants: These can be troublesome, but you have options. Setting Chalice at 2 will stop Life from the Loam, Burning Wish, Devastating Dreams and Ancient Grudge. Originally I only realized Loam. This match shouldn't be that hard. Know when to play Armageddon. Sideboarding should include Humility and Runed Halo.
+3 Humility, +2 Runed Halo; -3 Trinisphere, -1 Smokestack, -1 Ghost Quarter
Affinity Builds: They can't deal with Ghostly Prison or Moat game 1. Armageddon is crucial, this deck has no lands. Trinisphere is important but Chalice can go. Post Board you get goodies like Aura, Damping Matrix. If you feel you need them bring in Humility, Sphere of Resistance and Runed Halo. This match isn't that hard.
+3 Damping Matrix, +3 Aura of Silence; -4 Chalice of the Void, -2 Smokestack
Lands.dec: Play against this like Loam shells. Chalice at 2 shuts off their engine. Moat stops some stuff. Use the Armageddons wisely. Kill Maze of Ith or this match will take forever and you'll draw 0-0.
+3 Aura of Silence, +2 Runed Halo; -3 Trinisphere, -2 Smokestack
That's the gist of it. Correctly analyzing wether you are the control deck or the aggro deck is the most important call you'll make in any match. Usually you are the control deck, the pressure is on your opponent to win. Play your cards to ensure they don't. In some cases (Like Landstill) you need to win faster than your opponent. Keep aggressive hands and go for the throat. This deck doesn't have many unfavorable matchups, and playing well can improve your chances of winning significantly.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrick
Enchantress: I don't have a lot of experience with this. 'Chantress craps out a lot of stuff fast, making Smokestack pretty bad. A friend of mine familiar with both of these decks says it favors Stax. Feel free to add info. I guess the games would go long, and that favors Stax quite a bit. Post board bringing in Aura and Runed Halo are your best bets.
+3 Aura of Silence, +2 Runed Halo; -4 Ghostly Prison, -1 Moat
This is far from being true. Enchantress doesn't care about much Stax does. It has lots of acceleration, protection against Armageddon and the entire deck is made of permanents. The deck by itself already neutralizes the effects of Trinisphere, Chalice (almost entirely), Prison and Smokestack without doing anything. With this deck's very slow clock, it isn't in position of threatening Enchantress' game except by playing Armaggeddon, for which the deck has lots of answers. One of them is saving lands and auras in hand for a quick return while drawing cards and the others are Karmic Justic (a total of 3 post-board, plus the 4 Groves) and Sacred Ground. Most builds also play Chrome Mox, making Geddon even worse.
As a comparison, Dragon Stompy also doesn't have means to deal with Enchantress' engine, aside from Anarchy (if the opponent is unprepared) or a lucky Pyroclasm (if there are no Presences to support the required draw). It's only chance is to estabilish an early clock and pray that Chalice might slow the opponent down for just enough time. Stax isn't able to set this clock and the disruption is the same as far as the interaction with Enchantress is concerned.
As far as your sideboarding goes, there's not much you can do. Runed Halo won't do much, since there will be 3+ artifact/enchantment/permanent hate cards on the other side and they are able to draw/fetch everything they need and then kill you, with no need to rush. Humility shuts half of their engine down and makes Mesa tokens non-flyers (minor importance). It should come in this match, even though the lack of a clock caused by it will probably give them enough time to do their thing.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jaiminho
This is far from being true. Enchantress doesn't care about much Stax does. It has lots of acceleration, protection against Armageddon and the entire deck is made of permanents. The deck by itself already neutralizes the effects of Trinisphere, Chalice (almost entirely), Prison and Smokestack without doing anything. With this deck's very slow clock, it isn't in position of threatening Enchantress' game except by playing Armaggeddon, for which the deck has lots of answers. One of them is saving lands and auras in hand for a quick return while drawing cards and the others are Karmic Justic (a total of 3 post-board, plus the 4 Groves) and Sacred Ground. Most builds also play Chrome Mox, making Geddon even worse.
As a comparison, Dragon Stompy also doesn't have means to deal with Enchantress' engine, aside from Anarchy (if the opponent is unprepared) or a lucky Pyroclasm (if there are no Presences to support the required draw). It's only chance is to estabilish an early clock and pray that Chalice might slow the opponent down for just enough time. Stax isn't able to set this clock and the disruption is the same as far as the interaction with Enchantress is concerned.
As far as your sideboarding goes, there's not much you can do. Runed Halo won't do much, since there will be 3+ artifact/enchantment/permanent hate cards on the other side and they are able to draw/fetch everything they need and then kill you, with no need to rush. Humility shuts half of their engine down and makes Mesa tokens non-flyers (minor importance). It should come in this match, even though the lack of a clock caused by it will probably give them enough time to do their thing.
Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience with this. One time I was playing Enchantress and I beat a Stax deck. Sacred Ground was the bomb, and I had a million turns to do whatever.
Also, I suggested Runed Halo because you can name Words of War with it. I realize that Aura just comes out of the graveyard with Replenish and ruins your shit. I'm pretty sure Stax loses this but my friend has had the opposite luck. Likewise, when I beat the Stax deck it was close. He had survived for a while, and his Wastelands were able to keep me from going ape-shit with Serra's Sanctum. I don't know what to do in the Stax players position, but it's not unwinnable.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
This is the deck list i have been using since Shards comes out... i still use the armaggedon-stax essence. Sorry for my english :tongue:
Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains
Creatures:
2 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Spells:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
2 Oblivion Ring
Sideboard:
1 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Defense Grid
2 Aura of Silence
3 Karmic Justice
3 Suppression Field
1 Rule of Law
Mana accelerator:
Mana accelerator is an import piece of the lock on this deck, so using 4 ancient tomb, 4 mox diamond and 4 city of traitors it is going to cover this aspect.
Why a 4 ancient tomb? i have been thinking on putting 3 instead and put a kor haven (tombstalker scare me =D), this maybe fuck your game in early-game if you don't have more lands to play or a crucible.
Lands:
Flagestone of trokair: Godly with armaggedon and smokestack, i'll go with 3 since they are legendary, also works great with smokestack on play
Wasteland: Mana denial, 3 of then will do the work and better with a crucible of worlds on the table
Mishra's Factory: Godly on this deck, it can block tarmos and piledriver, since we do not have a lot of blockers and in case the opponent paid the prison, works good too with crucible of worlds. 3 of them because i need space for the next land
Horizon Canopy: Any good deck need a draw engine, this is my solution, once again, another land synergy with crucible
Plains: 7 of them, we just need at least WW in play for play all the deck
Lock:
Armaggedon: Haven't you see the face of the opponent at mid-game when you play this card? 4 of them
Smokestack: This is card most of the games makes you win, so scary card and much more when you drop an armaggedon on the table... so 4 of them
Chalice of the void: C'mon 4 of them, its just slow your opponent and most of times makes opponent run out of any solution.
Trinisphere: Slow-motion mode ON for opponent, synergic with smokestack on play, i have made lot of times player cannot do anything after an armaggedon with smokestack of 1, also Ad Nauseam Storm deck and others storm deck get fucked. The reason i have put 3 on the list is because at mid-game trinisphere is most of time useless, if you know which deck are you playing, considere use 4
Ghostly prison: Makes your opponnet pay more and more for do thing, this time with this card make opponnents pay for attack.
Creatures:
Exalted Angel: End the game fast, fix the damage dealt by ancient tomb, Sligh decks, Zoo, etc. I use 2 of them because i need to do the lock first.
Magus Of The Tabernacle: Great blocker, great mana denial, with ghstly prison it's a chaos for opponent. 3 of them.
Elspeth, Kinght-Errant: Dude, i just love this card, help me to raise and keep somkestack 3-turn with 3 soot counters sacrificing: token + flagestone + random land with crucible. Angel/tarnacle/mishra's gets +3+3 and flying. Armaggedon, Pernicious deed, Engineered explosives is not a worry anymore.
Removal:
Oblivon Ring: I can't play a deck with removal, i see 3 or 4 of this one a lot, this is for an unhandled pernicious or tombstalker, etc.
Sideboard:
Trinisphere: Just in case you need 4 of them
Tormod's crypt: There is so many Ichorid decks in my metagme.
Defense Grid: This deck have bad matchups with MUC deck style, countering a final lock piece is not fun.
Aura of silence: Great disenchant, screw affiny and it's not affected by your Chalice of the void (if you do Chalice of the void of 3, please play another deck xD). Enchantress deck? use this card.
Karmic Justice: Stax deck can be screwed with a simple pernicious deed, so drop this on table and see if your opponnent love to see their lands going to graveyard.
Suppresion field: More mana denial.
Rule of Law: Storm deck do nothing.
Please, any commentary or critic will be accepted with respect.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I'd never run less than 4 Flagstones. They're great in multiples, and they are lifesavers after a naked Armageddon. Why are you guys running less than 4?
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
I have been running three and it hasn't come up yet. Sometimes they are annoying to draw multiples of when I would rather get a plain out, as opposed to playing a second copy that mills two tapped plains out of my deck. Pass on that one.
I also run three geddons and four smokers in my build. Not as many geddons and I have three Elspeths to help support smokers.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
I'd never run less than 4 Flagstones. They're great in multiples, and they are lifesavers after a naked Armageddon. Why are you guys running less than 4?
For instance: in your opening hand you have: Flagstone, Flagstone, Smokestack, Ancient Tomb, Chalice, Trinisphere, Armageddon.
First turn play is probably Ancient Tomb, Chalice@1.
Second turn you draw another Smokestack for instance. You drop a Flagstones and a Trinisphere.
Third turn you draw another Chalice. You want to drop your Smokestack or Armageddon or Chalice@2 now depending on the situation. But you can't, because you only have 3 mana; if you drop your second Flagstones, you'll have two tapped plains. That way you have to wait another turn to get the next spell out, which no doubt you will need; in fact, if you need to play the Armageddon, you've already thinned your deck and lost the Flagstones ability before you can play it. Same goes with Smokestack by the way.
This situation does not occur alot, but isn't uncommon. When it does occur, it might cost you the game. The situation occurs alot less with 3 Flagstones instead of 4.
Also, when using Crucible + Flagstones to keep Smokestack @ 2, you want as many Plains in your deck as you can get. Switching the fourth Flagstones for a Plains is a good option.
edit:
@Patrick and igoticecream: both your lists look pretty solid. Any adaptations would be very meta and personal choice dependant. Only testing in your meta can improve your deck, I don't think random advice from people in a different meta. Although igoticecream's list does look a bit more random with the 1-of Elspeth; I'd probably make this a Magus, and I'm not a fan of Karmic Justice nor Suppression Field. If you want to stop Pernicious Deed, Pithing Needle has proven more useful to me. Suppression Field also slows down your Wastelands, Mishra's Factory, Aura of Silence, Tormod's Crypt, Horizon Canopy and Elspeth.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Are you really going to hypotheticals now, with double Flagstones in opening 7 and double Smokestack in opening 8, to discredit running 4 Flagstones? REALLY?
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Are you really going to hypotheticals now, with double Flagstones in opening 7, to discredit running 4 Flagstones? REALLY?
There are also often hands where you keep an Ancient Tomb, Flagstones and hope you'll draw an extra Plains, and then have it turn it out to be a Flagstones. But yes, really. They're not that great in multiples, why would you say that? The only reason I can immagine is deckthinning. And that's REALLY not a good reason. You just need to draw 1 Flagstones. You don't want that second Flagstones.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
There are also often hands where you keep an Ancient Tomb, Flagstones and hope you'll draw an extra Plains, and then have it turn it out to be a Flagstones. But yes, really. They're not that great in multiples, why would you say that? Because it thins the deck? Are you going to hypotheticals now, with deckthinning using a second Flagstones? REALLY?
Please quote where I said "because it thins the deck".
I don't know what your build looks like, so having WW available to you ASAP may be important (Moat, Elsepth, etc), but I don't play a single WW spell in my 75, so no, I rarely hope that I get Ancient Tomb + Flagstones + Plains. If I was running Moat, Elsepth, etc. and I needed 2WW available to me asap, then I could understand, but with my build, it's never been a problem running 4 Flagstones.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Well, the only reason I can think of why anyone would think of Flagstones would be great in multiples is because of thinning. If you have one out, you generally don't want another one.
My build is a couple of posts back, in my tournament report. Yes, I do need the double white alot more than other builds, but even in my old build (also no WW) I used 3 Flagstones. I'm just answering your question: 'Why are you guys running less than 4?'. If you think the answer is BS, fine. But these are the reasons why I run 3 and not 4.
Running 4 Flagstones isn't necesarily a problem. I just feel 3 is more balanced.
edit; I've edited that post right after I posted it...you reply fast lol :)
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Multiple Flagstones, played early, can help you immensely versus Moon Effects and B2B (MUC being one of our more unfavorable matchups). If I know my opponent has 6-8 Moon effects (standard DS maindeck) or is running 4x B2B (standard MUC), I'm going to want as many Flagstones as early as possible so that I can actually draw out 2-3 Plains before my opponent resolves something stupid like that. If I get them afterwards, then the point is moot, but I've at least given myself a realistic shot at getting guaranteed multiple basic lands so that I can manuever.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
That's odd, because of Blood Moon and Back to Basics, I now run more Plains. You do know Flagstones does nothing under a Moon? Well, produce :r:...and also doesn't untap under B2B until you draw a second? I'd rather have the Plains.
This is my current manabase:
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Flagstones of Trokair
That's 8 basic Plains to deal with Moons and B2B (if you prefer Defense Grid over Boil you can drop the Plateau). Nonbasics I usually pitch to Mox if I can.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
That's odd, because of Blood Moon and Back to Basics, I now run more Plains. You do know Flagstones does nothing under a Moon? Well, produce :r:...and also doesn't untap under B2B until you draw a second? I'd rather have the Plains.
This is my current manabase:
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Flagstones of Trokair
That's 8 basic Plains to deal with Moons and B2B (if you prefer Defense Grid over Boil you can drop the Plateau). Nonbasics I usually pitch to Mox if I can.
I already know that Flagstones are dead under a Moon:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
If I get them afterwards, then the point is moot, but I've at least given myself a realistic shot at getting guaranteed multiple basic lands so that I can manuever.
And based off of your decklist, plus your statments re: your need for WW as early as possivle (Moat, Elsepth, etc) you're running 8 Plains due to your dependence on having WW ASAP, not because of Moons. My deck needs W to operate, the rest can be Mountains/nonbasics, etc. I run 5 Plains, 4 Flagstones (which early, played multiples will guarantee me having at least one W to work with), and 4 Mox Diamond. 13 W sources for a deck that doesn't run any WW in it's 75 has worked fine for me. I really don't understand, in decks not running an WW spells, why you'd want less than 4 Flagstones.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
The second reason I gave: when using Crucible + Flagstones to keep Smokestack @ 2, you need as many Plains as possible. 1 Flagstone less means 1 Plains extra, means 1 extra turn of Smokestack @ 2.
